I forget how Freud worded it, but it's quoted somewhere on this site. Any
group of people, no matter how enlightened, will turn on itself without a
common enemy. Every group of people that thinks of itself as "Us" has to
have a "Them". If the Them becomes too vague or disappears, all of the
group's agression will be taken out on the Us.
Also, for almost all groups of people that come together and bond, there is
a Them involved in the initial bonding. This site is no exception. The
very first Them went by the nickname "billgates". He was a typical troll,
but more persistant than the usual ones we get nowdays.
When the Them gets too vague, people here do turn on each other as the
theory predicts.
So assuming this theory is true - and that there must be a Them for there
to be a community of people on this site. Who does everyone think the
Them is, and why?
Also add why we're better than Them if you can think of a reason. (For
example, our mascott can wrap his tenticles around their mascott 8 times,
and suck all it's guts out without doing too much damage to the skin).
____________________ So Sayeth Me
Alugarde
Member
Posts: 185 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 9/6/2004 at 05:01 PM
I'm not sure I like the implications of that theory, but I'll give an
answer: noisy idiotic shmeng bombs, and their degree of "Themness" is
proportional to the sum of their volume, lack of intelligence,
need-for-a-shower-inducing properties, and their explosiveness.
I'd say the reason for this theory is that all of us (except, of course,
the Deity), have our bad days when our level of Themness rises, and we all
tend to home in on those who have the highest level of Them. If theres
plenty of Them, the average level is high, and theres plenty of Them to go
around, and a bad day on one of our parts may go overlooked. If not, we may
take our opportunities to yell at people where we can get them.
Gah. This is something I have to consciously make sure not to do now..
____________________ l33t is the bastard cousin of contractions.
Domkitten
Fanatic
Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 9/6/2004 at 08:32 PM
Should we name names?
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 10/6/2004 at 04:50 AM
I think there is no finer example of Them than GOTHS! Hear mee out...
I define goths as those people who, well, motivate our most Holy Lord Devin
to makes sure "Shmeng is not a Gothic site" appears on every page. They
are petty, shallow, pretentious, vein, pseudo-intellectual drama-queens who
more often than not have nothing to bitch about.
Most of us went through this phase durring our teenage years such just as
most ravers went through a candy-raver phase and it's nothing to be ashamed
of assuming yoo grow out of it, though some never do. This is why the
majority of active Shmenglings are in their 20s and 30s.
This is not to say yoo have to be teenage to fit into the group of Them to
which I refer. The worst of all are the ones who are adults as they should
damn well know better. Furthermore, there are a few teenagers on this
website who in no way fit into this group we call Them, and let mee say I
am very impressed with their intelligence and maturity.
I often see people come on to this site with handles like "Countess
Dominyque Blackness" and wonder if they're actuallyy trying to impress
anyone here (no offense to MRD who specificly chose her name to mock said
people). Generally, they either never make themselves known or humiliate
themselves completely.
Do we think we're better than Them? Probably yes. By this I simply mean
that most of us would not consdier for a moment posting on yor typical
"Forum of Dorkness" and are apprehensive about allowing the type of people
that frequent those sites join us.
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl
gothicmorman
Fanatic
Posts: 233 Registered: 11/7/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 12:33 AM
i will completely and openly admit to starting out as a them. when i first
came here it was because i had searched 'goth' on google because i didnt
know what being a goth really consisted of and i wanted to find out. this
interest did not derive from the black images that circulate the high
school hallways but merely from a friend who was always saying how goth she
was and how goth i wasent. what i found amusing every time she said it was
that if anyone did not understand that she was goth and i was not it was
her becasue she really seemed to need to keep reinforcing that fact. but
anyway, i started out with the stereotypical pictures of goth imprinted in
my tiny brain asking stupid questions, trying to probe for intelligent
answers and i must say that i did get them. in less than two months i went
from a most definite them to more a part of the us. now, while i do not
post much more than notes, comments, and forum posts i hope to expand as my
writing skill are getting better and i was formerly hesaitent to even
attempt at producing anything because at 15 i could nor write an essay to
save the life of a newborn kitten (or the shrek2 version of puss in boots).
but now at 16 i consider myself more a part of the us on shmeng than the
them.
i would have to say that the them, like squid explains are the teenagers
that think they own the world becasue their black is blacker than your
black and that makes them goth. but not all thems are neccessarily 'goths'
they can also be idiots just looking to annoy some people, or idiots who
think they are awesome and that we should listen to them. generally its
just the people whose heads you would like to pound into a wall after
reading one of their posts, those who are not accepted in the general
community as contributing i-have-a-brain-andt-i-can-use-it members. them is
the people we can release our anger on because we dont care if they get
offended and leave...
the ruthless
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 02:44 AM
The people I see as THEM are those who just believe whatever they've been
fed. I don't even care if what they've been fed is true. If you read a
magazine, listen to the voice of your elders, or go to church and don't
stop to think "Hey, does this really match up with reality? Will this
still hold water after thinking about it and testing it out?", then you are
a THEM. I don't care if the info you're being fed comes from your pastor
or Monolycus. If you just swallow it down like a baby sucking on a bottle,
you are a THEM. However, if you disagree with me, or anyone else here, but
have taken the time to think your opinion through, and test it out, and are
still willing to be proven wrong if necessary, then you are one of US and I
give you my respect.
The reason WE are better than THEM is because WE are far more in touch with
reality, and far, far less likely to be duped. WE are alert and our minds
are active, and WE will end up knowing far more about THEM in a heartbeat
then THEY will ever know in their entire lives, because WE aren't too busy
jumping to our pre-set conclusions.
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 07:06 AM
Personally i don't belieive in there being an "us" and "them". I think
there are wrong attitudes, as in "us versus them".
Maybe it's true that a society needs there to be an enemy to fight and
forge bonds with in itself. I don't know. To me that way of thinking seems
to be most destructive. It seems to cultivate thoughts of superiority.
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~
The Sandman, Dream Country
Domkitten
Fanatic
Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 09:31 AM
Ahem, of course it cultivates feelings of superiority. Have you actually
listened to Callei?
Have you looked at the pantheon, have you watched as others have referred
to Devin as all mighty.
I think one would have to be blind not to realize that there most certainly
is a cult of superiority here, and that in and of itself is not a bad
thing. It is also not distracting, or destructive to want to regroup and
figure out who the enemies are.
I think squid once put it best "if your account profile has your start date
later than 1969 your a newbie" that could be taken further to mean, that
you are also them. (And I realize this makes me them).
However, in the long run, Schizo is more on the mark with my thinking about
"us" and "them". As a group it would be easy to use a tautology and say
"all teenagers are them", however there are some teenagers here that
certainly don't fit that rule (Sindel, MRD come time mind, as I'm not sure
if Cash is still a teen). It would be easy to say that feelings of "us and
them" come from the fact that many of those contributing here are adults
and it is easy to see "children" as being the enemy, but that is also not
true.
The fact of the matter is “shmeng exists because people suck”. I submit
therefore that “them” are indeed people who suck, and will always be those
people. I also postulate that people who suck will always be less than “We”
and therefore inferior.
I further postulate that this is good.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 10:54 AM
(ok, so i hope this doesn't incur thy wrath)
Well, then how is it decided who sucks and who doesn't? It seems as though
the "them" aspect of shmeng is merely those you don't like and that it may
become those who you do not agree with, because of course your way of
thinking is the only valid way of thinking. You are superior so that makes
you automatically right, right? Is there some kind of template of "them"
that could be used as an unbiased system of weeding out the "enemy"? Is
this an attempt to remove those who have shmengy attitudes? Or is this an
approach at getting rid of those who think differently from you? Schizo did
touch on that subject of disagreeing with one another and how if it's a
well thought out con then she has respect for the individual, I like that.
Hopefully that's the way that most others here feel. But, thoughts of
superiority can cause elitism and all around snobbish behavior....and I
feel that may be a bad thing.
Yes, I have noticed how people address *ahem* The Devine. I thought it was
all in good fun though.
(I am not trying to anger anyone. Just provoking thought and polite
conversation. I do not mean to be rude.)
[Edited on 11/6/2004 by Zero]
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak."
~
The Sandman, Dream Country
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 11:45 AM
HE'S ONE OF THEM!!! GET HIM!!!
(just kidding)
[Edited on 6/12/2004 by IamSquid]
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl
Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic
Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 12:35 PM
Well. I knew eventually I'd have to stick my proverbial head into this
little mixer of the damned. Us vs. Them? We should look at it from the
"them" perspective, eh?
I'm a "them". I say it not with pride, more resserved dissilusionment,
because honestly by now I expected to be an "us". Now clearly the only the
person at fault in my failure to raise myself to the ilk of Shmeng's hip
and elite is my own. Maybe it was my entrance performance? Perhaps my
sometimes insufficiently researched rants, or maybe just the general poor
quality of my articles. I mean, I've established casual friendships with
Shade, Callei, Lady Cygnet, and the ocassional talk with Mono here and
there. But there is a vast majority of you, the revered and feared, admired
and sometimes intimidating "us" that hate me, don't care about me, or seem
to harbor an almost mind boggling image of me being non-existant.
I think the latter of these little complaints is due to the fact that I've
reached a curious middle ground. Like a needle in the groove of a broken
record, I seem to be stuck in a place where I am no longer paid atention
too, no longer schooled by those who know more of Shmeng than I, where I've
learned for the most part to control what I say, in order to just....get
along. But I'm not going anywhere either. I suppose it makes sense. I can
be harsh, and stubborn. I can disagree. I've learned, I've back tracked,
all that jazz. And yet I still feel like a "them". I would surmise even
those of Shmeng who'm I've gained a friednship with don't see me in a
particularly different light than before. Is it becuase I might not be
contributing enough to the site? Is it me as a person? Did no one ever
think to make me a pet for a time? Or are you, the famed "us" just not in
the mood to allow anymore-at this time at least- of "them" into your
circle.
Should you have to? Of course not. Friends are friends, clubs are clubs,
clich's clich's. So it goes without saying it's technically none of your,
hold on (from now on, 'you' or any pluralization or tensing as such, can be
read as the aformentiones "us") anyway, it's technically not your problem
to nuture, look over, or care for the little Shmenglings that are reared
here. Devin made a kingdom, not a fucking pre-school. So that point is
moot. But why take on pets? Clearly you care, about the good ones at least.
But do you make sure they get all that they need? Raising a baby to a
toddler is raising, but is that toddler ready to fly the nest? No.
So whats the point? I dunno. I guess I wished that we could all find a
common idea of who "they" are. I mean, even with my own "them" status, I
stil see others as outsiders here...hell even some you. Them's to me, are
people that for reasons within or outside of my control, have stopped
listening to me. It's silly, and I probably caused them to turn the deaf
ear to my rantings....but it just doesn't sit right with me.
____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner
Domkitten
Fanatic
Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 11/6/2004 at 02:26 PM
Wanting to be part of "us"and thereby trying to become a part of that same
only tends to make one more "them". Have the expectation that your
brillance will at some point show through and suddenly everyone will
understand you, is a good sign that you have yet to figure out how to stop
being them.
"The royal shmeng us" frankly don't care if your listened to, loved, hated,
or ignored.
What they do care about is whether or not your willing to undergo a trial
by fire, and if your going to be able to come out of it on your own legs in
the end. Pets, by their nature need some care, however, not all pets know
that they are pets, and the pet status is not something you can ask to get,
nor would you always know if you got it. Read http://www.shmeng.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file
=article&sid=534 and http://www.shmeng.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file
=article&sid=549 . Don't just read the artilces, read the comments,
because there is an awful lot in there that can easily be missed.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 15/6/2004 at 10:22 AM
i think the "US" part is fun to poke too, since not everyone in the "us"
agrees with everyone else in the "us" about who the "us" is. that is one of
the really fun things. I dont know why that is, personality, lack of
contact, or something else, but some of the poeple here that consider
themselves "us" and are considered "us" by other people, arent "us" to me.
and funny as it may sound to some of you that consider yourself "them" I
know that some people that consider themselves "us" dont consider me part
of that "us".
Ironic isnt it.
I dont know that the "us against them" model works when there are long term
friendships involved. that might be the catalyst of why those people became
friends, but over time, it is the shared experience of time that keeps them
friends.
I also dont know if the "us against them" model works for shmeng, where
perhaps it did for Gothic Enlightenment (all versions), unless the "them"
is not a person or group of people, but rather a state of being or set of
circumstances.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 15/6/2004 at 11:07 AM
Ah, I think I may have misinterprited the question previously.
Of course there's some debate about who the acutal "Us" is. I think many
of "Us" have personal issues with some of the rest of of "Us" but still
must admit said people are one of "Us." It comes down to who the people
are who make this website different from the others.
For example, no one will deny anyone in the Pantheon is one of "Us" because
by definition they are "Us." But also no one will deny Bettie, though not
part of the Pantheon, is in many ways the definition of "Us" as she has
permantly left her mark here, cannot be forgotten, and her contributions
have been without a doubt exceptional, I would be very suprised if there is
anybody here who disagrees with this.
Likewise I extend this definition to many people here, despite the fact
that this desciption is entirely subjective.
I am currently under the impression that I am one of "Us." Why? Because a
good percentage of the Shmenglings find mee entertaining (even if hey hate
my guts), I actively contribute, I have many friends here who most people
would also consider "Us," and as luck would have it I'm a horrible
ferocious sea monster (which is always fun).
What does one of "Them" do to become one of "Us?" There are many people
who make magnificent enterances and should be considered probationary "Us."
Probationary only because more than half of these people tend to fade away
quickly. Leaving a good first impression counts for alot, especially
here.
I left a pretty bad first impression when I showed-up (everyone thought I
was just some wierdo pretending to be a giant squid), but because
some of the established "Us" at the time gave mee an opening, I was able to
quickly turn that around to my advantage that not only cancelled-out most
of the major complaints about mee (basicly everything but my spelling) but
also worked out to my favor. For this reason, when I see potential in
someone I try to extend them a tentacle.
Squire, I'm sorry but the first impression yoo left mee (and it was a
REALLY bad first impression) remains. And yes, I consider yoo one of
"Them" and I think it's unlikely I will ever see yoo as anything but "Them"
(note that I speak only for myself here). However, changing my mind is
entirely within the realm of possibility. The best way to do that is to
not try to change my mind, or anyone else's mind here, but to simply fit
the criteria I have sighted above without trying to.
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
/>
die so i could watch, and then me die.
I must say that there is an us versus them and always will be... straight
up, man is a primate. Primates form familial/social groups. And those
groups are bound to ahve friction. Humans are a bit like a dog that's
beaten. Always skittish around people they don't know. Ultimately... that
skittishness maked them uneasy and frightened. They may never understand
why they are upset, but it makes them angry in response. SO it will always
be there...
Now... I am a sadist... so I refuse to give them the satisfaction of
fucking responding.
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic
Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 16/6/2004 at 04:40 PM
(understood and respected Squid.)
I'd have to say yeah, on the whole, there are just some people who if
shmeng lasted a decade or 3 longer, would still be talked about. Little
kids on summer break would be getting reamed for bitching about how bad
their school year was by a wisened, cranky, but decidedly well spoken and
grammatically gifted grandma Callei. People would sit around digital
campfires, singing songs about this flame war, and that politcal debate,
shmeng parties od yore, and the legend of Mono in drag (After all we need
maids around here to clean the place up) and.....ok, I become carried away.
There is no magic scale by which to measure "us" and "them", but I don't
have to tell anyone that. I'd say the "us" are just those amazingly gifted
or bizzare or loved people that no one will forget.
____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Hell yes... you are forgetting those of us who are hated enough to be
remembers... I am newbie bane and don't you forget it
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic
Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 17/6/2004 at 12:47 AM
Hehehe, I'm generally afraid to throw your name out in my posts, for fear
of incuring such a wrath. But rest assured, the name Feral will NOT be
forgotten by any newb for ages to come. The sheer though of your presense
will probably sent a shiver through the spines and pelvis' of newb for
years. God knows I harbored a king-hell fear of you when I first crawled in
here.
____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a
buzzard.
/>
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
bring me up... those that matter here... welcome me... mostly...
kinda...*grins* I am glad to know that my presense is memorable... Although
I must say... I am warm and kind... just zero tolerance for zero
intelligence... with VERY few exceptions, I will treat someone with respect
ONCE they start demonstrating intelligence
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 18/6/2004 at 12:39 AM
Oh that's complete bullshit and yoo know it, Feral. Yoo treat mee with
respect and I'm a walking (or swimming/slithering/whatever) joke.
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to