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Author: Subject: Us Against Them

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Posts: 317
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 9/6/2004 at 03:36 PM
I forget how Freud worded it, but it's quoted somewhere on this site. Any group of people, no matter how enlightened, will turn on itself without a common enemy. Every group of people that thinks of itself as "Us" has to have a "Them". If the Them becomes too vague or disappears, all of the group's agression will be taken out on the Us.

Also, for almost all groups of people that come together and bond, there is a Them involved in the initial bonding. This site is no exception. The very first Them went by the nickname "billgates". He was a typical troll, but more persistant than the usual ones we get nowdays.

When the Them gets too vague, people here do turn on each other as the theory predicts.

So assuming this theory is true - and that there must be a Them for there to be a community of people on this site. Who does everyone think the Them is, and why?

Also add why we're better than Them if you can think of a reason. (For example, our mascott can wrap his tenticles around their mascott 8 times, and suck all it's guts out without doing too much damage to the skin).

 

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Posts: 185
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 9/6/2004 at 05:01 PM
I'm not sure I like the implications of that theory, but I'll give an answer: noisy idiotic shmeng bombs, and their degree of "Themness" is proportional to the sum of their volume, lack of intelligence, need-for-a-shower-inducing properties, and their explosiveness.

I'd say the reason for this theory is that all of us (except, of course, the Deity), have our bad days when our level of Themness rises, and we all tend to home in on those who have the highest level of Them. If theres plenty of Them, the average level is high, and theres plenty of Them to go around, and a bad day on one of our parts may go overlooked. If not, we may take our opportunities to yell at people where we can get them.

Gah. This is something I have to consciously make sure not to do now..

 

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  posted on 9/6/2004 at 08:32 PM
Should we name names?

 

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It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 

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Posts: 658
Registered: 27/5/2002
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  posted on 10/6/2004 at 04:50 AM
I think there is no finer example of Them than GOTHS! Hear mee out...

I define goths as those people who, well, motivate our most Holy Lord Devin to makes sure "Shmeng is not a Gothic site" appears on every page. They are petty, shallow, pretentious, vein, pseudo-intellectual drama-queens who more often than not have nothing to bitch about.

Most of us went through this phase durring our teenage years such just as most ravers went through a candy-raver phase and it's nothing to be ashamed of assuming yoo grow out of it, though some never do. This is why the majority of active Shmenglings are in their 20s and 30s.

This is not to say yoo have to be teenage to fit into the group of Them to which I refer. The worst of all are the ones who are adults as they should damn well know better. Furthermore, there are a few teenagers on this website who in no way fit into this group we call Them, and let mee say I am very impressed with their intelligence and maturity.

I often see people come on to this site with handles like "Countess Dominyque Blackness" and wonder if they're actuallyy trying to impress anyone here (no offense to MRD who specificly chose her name to mock said people). Generally, they either never make themselves known or humiliate themselves completely.

Do we think we're better than Them? Probably yes. By this I simply mean that most of us would not consdier for a moment posting on yor typical "Forum of Dorkness" and are apprehensive about allowing the type of people that frequent those sites join us.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to die so i could watch, and then me die.

-ickgirl

 

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Posts: 233
Registered: 11/7/2002
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  posted on 11/6/2004 at 12:33 AM
i will completely and openly admit to starting out as a them. when i first came here it was because i had searched 'goth' on google because i didnt know what being a goth really consisted of and i wanted to find out. this interest did not derive from the black images that circulate the high school hallways but merely from a friend who was always saying how goth she was and how goth i wasent. what i found amusing every time she said it was that if anyone did not understand that she was goth and i was not it was her becasue she really seemed to need to keep reinforcing that fact. but anyway, i started out with the stereotypical pictures of goth imprinted in my tiny brain asking stupid questions, trying to probe for intelligent answers and i must say that i did get them. in less than two months i went from a most definite them to more a part of the us. now, while i do not post much more than notes, comments, and forum posts i hope to expand as my writing skill are getting better and i was formerly hesaitent to even attempt at producing anything because at 15 i could nor write an essay to save the life of a newborn kitten (or the shrek2 version of puss in boots). but now at 16 i consider myself more a part of the us on shmeng than the them.

i would have to say that the them, like squid explains are the teenagers that think they own the world becasue their black is blacker than your black and that makes them goth. but not all thems are neccessarily 'goths' they can also be idiots just looking to annoy some people, or idiots who think they are awesome and that we should listen to them. generally its just the people whose heads you would like to pound into a wall after reading one of their posts, those who are not accepted in the general community as contributing i-have-a-brain-andt-i-can-use-it members. them is the people we can release our anger on because we dont care if they get offended and leave...

the ruthless

 

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Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/6/2004 at 02:44 AM
The people I see as THEM are those who just believe whatever they've been fed. I don't even care if what they've been fed is true. If you read a magazine, listen to the voice of your elders, or go to church and don't stop to think "Hey, does this really match up with reality? Will this still hold water after thinking about it and testing it out?", then you are a THEM. I don't care if the info you're being fed comes from your pastor or Monolycus. If you just swallow it down like a baby sucking on a bottle, you are a THEM. However, if you disagree with me, or anyone else here, but have taken the time to think your opinion through, and test it out, and are still willing to be proven wrong if necessary, then you are one of US and I give you my respect.

The reason WE are better than THEM is because WE are far more in touch with reality, and far, far less likely to be duped. WE are alert and our minds are active, and WE will end up knowing far more about THEM in a heartbeat then THEY will ever know in their entire lives, because WE aren't too busy jumping to our pre-set conclusions.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

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Posts: 459
Registered: 15/2/2004
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  posted on 11/6/2004 at 07:06 AM
Personally i don't belieive in there being an "us" and "them". I think there are wrong attitudes, as in "us versus them".

Maybe it's true that a society needs there to be an enemy to fight and forge bonds with in itself. I don't know. To me that way of thinking seems to be most destructive. It seems to cultivate thoughts of superiority.

 

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"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~ The Sandman, Dream Country

 

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Posts: 470
Registered: 23/9/2002
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  posted on 11/6/2004 at 09:31 AM
Ahem, of course it cultivates feelings of superiority. Have you actually listened to Callei?
Have you looked at the pantheon, have you watched as others have referred to Devin as all mighty.

I think one would have to be blind not to realize that there most certainly is a cult of superiority here, and that in and of itself is not a bad thing. It is also not distracting, or destructive to want to regroup and figure out who the enemies are.

I think squid once put it best "if your account profile has your start date later than 1969 your a newbie" that could be taken further to mean, that you are also them. (And I realize this makes me them).

However, in the long run, Schizo is more on the mark with my thinking about "us" and "them". As a group it would be easy to use a tautology and say "all teenagers are them", however there are some teenagers here that certainly don't fit that rule (Sindel, MRD come time mind, as I'm not sure if Cash is still a teen). It would be easy to say that feelings of "us and them" come from the fact that many of those contributing here are adults and it is easy to see "children" as being the enemy, but that is also not true.

The fact of the matter is “shmeng exists because people suck”. I submit therefore that “them” are indeed people who suck, and will always be those people. I also postulate that people who suck will always be less than “We” and therefore inferior.

I further postulate that this is good.

 

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It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 

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Posts: 459
Registered: 15/2/2004
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  posted on 11/6/2004 at 10:54 AM
(ok, so i hope this doesn't incur thy wrath)

Well, then how is it decided who sucks and who doesn't? It seems as though the "them" aspect of shmeng is merely those you don't like and that it may become those who you do not agree with, because of course your way of thinking is the only valid way of thinking. You are superior so that makes you automatically right, right? Is there some kind of template of "them" that could be used as an unbiased system of weeding out the "enemy"? Is this an attempt to remove those who have shmengy attitudes? Or is this an approach at getting rid of those who think differently from you? Schizo did touch on that subject of disagreeing with one another and how if it's a well thought out con then she has respect for the individual, I like that. Hopefully that's the way that most others here feel. But, thoughts of superiority can cause elitism and all around snobbish behavior....and I feel that may be a bad thing.

Yes, I have noticed how people address *ahem* The Devine. I thought it was all in good fun though.

(I am not trying to anger anyone. Just provoking thought and polite conversation. I do not mean to be rude.)

[Edited on 11/6/2004 by Zero]

 

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"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~
The Sandman, Dream Country

 

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Posts: 658
Registered: 27/5/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/6/2004 at 11:45 AM
HE'S ONE OF THEM!!! GET HIM!!!

(just kidding)

[Edited on 6/12/2004 by IamSquid]

 

____________________


i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.




-ickgirl

 

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Posts: 206
Registered: 1/1/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/6/2004 at 12:35 PM
Well. I knew eventually I'd have to stick my proverbial head into this little mixer of the damned. Us vs. Them? We should look at it from the "them" perspective, eh?

I'm a "them". I say it not with pride, more resserved dissilusionment, because honestly by now I expected to be an "us". Now clearly the only the person at fault in my failure to raise myself to the ilk of Shmeng's hip and elite is my own. Maybe it was my entrance performance? Perhaps my sometimes insufficiently researched rants, or maybe just the general poor quality of my articles. I mean, I've established casual friendships with Shade, Callei, Lady Cygnet, and the ocassional talk with Mono here and there. But there is a vast majority of you, the revered and feared, admired and sometimes intimidating "us" that hate me, don't care about me, or seem to harbor an almost mind boggling image of me being non-existant.

I think the latter of these little complaints is due to the fact that I've reached a curious middle ground. Like a needle in the groove of a broken record, I seem to be stuck in a place where I am no longer paid atention too, no longer schooled by those who know more of Shmeng than I, where I've learned for the most part to control what I say, in order to just....get along. But I'm not going anywhere either. I suppose it makes sense. I can be harsh, and stubborn. I can disagree. I've learned, I've back tracked, all that jazz. And yet I still feel like a "them". I would surmise even those of Shmeng who'm I've gained a friednship with don't see me in a particularly different light than before. Is it becuase I might not be contributing enough to the site? Is it me as a person? Did no one ever think to make me a pet for a time? Or are you, the famed "us" just not in the mood to allow anymore-at this time at least- of "them" into your circle.

Should you have to? Of course not. Friends are friends, clubs are clubs, clich's clich's. So it goes without saying it's technically none of your, hold on (from now on, 'you' or any pluralization or tensing as such, can be read as the aformentiones "us") anyway, it's technically not your problem to nuture, look over, or care for the little Shmenglings that are reared here. Devin made a kingdom, not a fucking pre-school. So that point is moot. But why take on pets? Clearly you care, about the good ones at least. But do you make sure they get all that they need? Raising a baby to a toddler is raising, but is that toddler ready to fly the nest? No.

So whats the point? I dunno. I guess I wished that we could all find a common idea of who "they" are. I mean, even with my own "them" status, I stil see others as outsiders here...hell even some you. Them's to me, are people that for reasons within or outside of my control, have stopped listening to me. It's silly, and I probably caused them to turn the deaf ear to my rantings....but it just doesn't sit right with me.

 

____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard. Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat anything.”
Faulkner

 

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Registered: 23/9/2002
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  posted on 11/6/2004 at 02:26 PM
Wanting to be part of "us"and thereby trying to become a part of that same only tends to make one more "them". Have the expectation that your brillance will at some point show through and suddenly everyone will understand you, is a good sign that you have yet to figure out how to stop being them.

"The royal shmeng us" frankly don't care if your listened to, loved, hated, or ignored.

What they do care about is whether or not your willing to undergo a trial by fire, and if your going to be able to come out of it on your own legs in the end. Pets, by their nature need some care, however, not all pets know that they are pets, and the pet status is not something you can ask to get, nor would you always know if you got it. Read http://www.shmeng.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file =article&sid=534 and http://www.shmeng.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file =article&sid=549 . Don't just read the artilces, read the comments, because there is an awful lot in there that can easily be missed.

Zero: http://www.shmeng.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections& file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=12



[Edited on 6/11/2004 by Domkitten]

 

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It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 

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Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 15/6/2004 at 10:22 AM
i think the "US" part is fun to poke too, since not everyone in the "us" agrees with everyone else in the "us" about who the "us" is. that is one of the really fun things. I dont know why that is, personality, lack of contact, or something else, but some of the poeple here that consider themselves "us" and are considered "us" by other people, arent "us" to me. and funny as it may sound to some of you that consider yourself "them" I know that some people that consider themselves "us" dont consider me part of that "us".

Ironic isnt it.

I dont know that the "us against them" model works when there are long term friendships involved. that might be the catalyst of why those people became friends, but over time, it is the shared experience of time that keeps them friends.
I also dont know if the "us against them" model works for shmeng, where perhaps it did for Gothic Enlightenment (all versions), unless the "them" is not a person or group of people, but rather a state of being or set of circumstances.

 

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Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires away.

 

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Registered: 27/5/2002
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  posted on 15/6/2004 at 11:07 AM
Ah, I think I may have misinterprited the question previously.

Of course there's some debate about who the acutal "Us" is. I think many of "Us" have personal issues with some of the rest of of "Us" but still must admit said people are one of "Us." It comes down to who the people are who make this website different from the others.

For example, no one will deny anyone in the Pantheon is one of "Us" because by definition they are "Us." But also no one will deny Bettie, though not part of the Pantheon, is in many ways the definition of "Us" as she has permantly left her mark here, cannot be forgotten, and her contributions have been without a doubt exceptional, I would be very suprised if there is anybody here who disagrees with this.

Likewise I extend this definition to many people here, despite the fact that this desciption is entirely subjective.

I am currently under the impression that I am one of "Us." Why? Because a good percentage of the Shmenglings find mee entertaining (even if hey hate my guts), I actively contribute, I have many friends here who most people would also consider "Us," and as luck would have it I'm a horrible ferocious sea monster (which is always fun).

What does one of "Them" do to become one of "Us?" There are many people who make magnificent enterances and should be considered probationary "Us." Probationary only because more than half of these people tend to fade away quickly. Leaving a good first impression counts for alot, especially here.

I left a pretty bad first impression when I showed-up (everyone thought I was just some wierdo pretending to be a giant squid), but because some of the established "Us" at the time gave mee an opening, I was able to quickly turn that around to my advantage that not only cancelled-out most of the major complaints about mee (basicly everything but my spelling) but also worked out to my favor. For this reason, when I see potential in someone I try to extend them a tentacle.

Squire, I'm sorry but the first impression yoo left mee (and it was a REALLY bad first impression) remains. And yes, I consider yoo one of "Them" and I think it's unlikely I will ever see yoo as anything but "Them" (note that I speak only for myself here). However, changing my mind is entirely within the realm of possibility. The best way to do that is to not try to change my mind, or anyone else's mind here, but to simply fit the criteria I have sighted above without trying to.

 

____________________



i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to />
die so i could watch, and then me die.






-ickgirl

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 15/6/2004 at 04:26 PM
I must say that there is an us versus them and always will be... straight up, man is a primate. Primates form familial/social groups. And those groups are bound to ahve friction. Humans are a bit like a dog that's beaten. Always skittish around people they don't know. Ultimately... that skittishness maked them uneasy and frightened. They may never understand why they are upset, but it makes them angry in response. SO it will always be there...

Now... I am a sadist... so I refuse to give them the satisfaction of fucking responding.

 

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The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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Posts: 206
Registered: 1/1/2003
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  posted on 16/6/2004 at 04:40 PM
(understood and respected Squid.)

I'd have to say yeah, on the whole, there are just some people who if shmeng lasted a decade or 3 longer, would still be talked about. Little kids on summer break would be getting reamed for bitching about how bad their school year was by a wisened, cranky, but decidedly well spoken and grammatically gifted grandma Callei. People would sit around digital campfires, singing songs about this flame war, and that politcal debate, shmeng parties od yore, and the legend of Mono in drag (After all we need maids around here to clean the place up) and.....ok, I become carried away. There is no magic scale by which to measure "us" and "them", but I don't have to tell anyone that. I'd say the "us" are just those amazingly gifted or bizzare or loved people that no one will forget.

 

____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”

“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”

Faulkner

 

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  posted on 16/6/2004 at 08:53 PM
Hell yes... you are forgetting those of us who are hated enough to be remembers... I am newbie bane and don't you forget it

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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Posts: 206
Registered: 1/1/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 17/6/2004 at 12:47 AM
Hehehe, I'm generally afraid to throw your name out in my posts, for fear of incuring such a wrath. But rest assured, the name Feral will NOT be forgotten by any newb for ages to come. The sheer though of your presense will probably sent a shiver through the spines and pelvis' of newb for years. God knows I harbored a king-hell fear of you when I first crawled in here.

 

____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”


“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard. />
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat

anything.”


Faulkner

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 17/6/2004 at 06:03 PM
bring me up... those that matter here... welcome me... mostly... kinda...*grins* I am glad to know that my presense is memorable... Although I must say... I am warm and kind... just zero tolerance for zero intelligence... with VERY few exceptions, I will treat someone with respect ONCE they start demonstrating intelligence

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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Posts: 658
Registered: 27/5/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 18/6/2004 at 12:39 AM
Oh that's complete bullshit and yoo know it, Feral. Yoo treat mee with respect and I'm a walking (or swimming/slithering/whatever) joke.

 

____________________




i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
/>

die so i could watch, and then me die.








-ickgirl

 
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