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Author: Subject: Senate Oks Partial Abortion Ban

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  posted on 21/10/2003 at 03:31 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ ap/20031021/ap_on_go_co/congress_abortion_13

"WASHINGTON - The Senate on Tuesday voted to ban the practice that critics call partial birth abortion, sending President Bush (news - web sites) a measure that supporters and foes alike said could alter the future of U.S. abortion rights. A court challenge is certain."

Thoughts? Comments?

 

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but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
 

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  posted on 21/10/2003 at 04:22 PM
http://kirashi.envy.nu/Articles/abortion.html

http://kirashi.envy.nu/Articles/moreonabortion.html


Those are my thoughts on Abortion.


 

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  posted on 21/10/2003 at 05:35 PM
partial birth abortion? hmmm,i agree with this bill. women want to have control over their bodies and want the government to stay out of their reproductive lives, but truthfully it is all a matter of personal responsibilty. i am pro choice, don't get me wrong, but if a baby can be delivered then it is a BABYand i cannot argue over that fact. besides this procedure is not exactly safe for the woman having it perfomed. i guess i am with anya on this, i read the links she posted. i have to agree. women need to be in charge of their own sexuality. women need to know their bodies. it is more humane to have abortions performed in the first couple of months.if a woman waits too much later it is really irresponsible. (this last part is my own opinion, i do not know everything) right is right and wrong is wrong, that is my take.

 

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  posted on 21/10/2003 at 08:11 PM
While I personally do not think the best of abortion, I do not really say it's taking a life due to "right and wrong" reasons for I do think it's taking a life. In that aspect, it is unconstitutional. However, I strongly believe that it is running away from responsibility. Then there's the side that people say the child is better off dead than raised by a dysfunctional family, which is somewhat true...but still doesn't stop the fact that the parent was having irresponsible sex.

Just an extra two cents...

Blessings,
Anya

 

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  posted on 21/10/2003 at 08:45 PM
It’s very easy to sit in judgment on abortion when you are in the group of people that have never been forced to make the decision whether or not to have an abortion. It is even easier to make the judgment on something like partial-birth abortion, where the fetus is, for the most part, fully developed when it is neutralized. However, simply because it is easier for us to judge the women who have resorted to this final late term abortion, I think it is unfair.

Women are, as far as I know, the only ones capable of bringing a life into this world. Granted, without fertilization women would be hard pressed to produced anything, but it is in the body of a woman that all things come to pass, making the burden on her fair more real then that of anyone else. There are lots of reasons for women to want to get an abortion, and the fear of raising a child in a dysfunctional family is probably not one of them. Last time I checked dysfunctionality was never really a big part of why a woman might choose to get an abortion.

There are the horrific reasons, rape and incest, various acts of violence committed against a woman in which she finds her self recovering mentally only to find out that inside of her there is a seed of that violence still growing. Can you imagine spending some months trying to recover from such brutality, ignoring all the signs of pregnancy simply because you don’t wish to believe it, and finally, acknowledge the fact that you are pregnant. Then you have to make a decision whether or not to raise this child? Let us judge that woman for seeking an abortion, and the only choice available that partial-birth abortion (PBA).

Still, this is not the most common, scenario. Thanks to the advances in medical science woman can discover a great deal more about the children they are carrying now then ever before. Diseases, deformities, life-long physical defects can now be discovered in the womb, frequently these things cannot be found until you have passed the time for a more common abortion. As a woman, knowing that by bringing a child into the world who may find itself completely incapable of maintaining and managing it’s own life, knowing that in my own life I would have found such inability overwhelming painful, could I bring a child into the world? Would it be the best thing for that baby? This brings a whole realm of issues in which one could argue medical science as the well-bringer for the genetic selection of perfect humans, but there are certainly times when it is far crueler to give life to something then to take it away.

Regardless of all this, abortion as an issue has been around for far longer than Congress and it’s most recent effort to control it. Abortion has nothing to do with a woman’s right to choose; so much as it has something to do with a Woman’s right to power. All of the major patriarchal religions condemn abortion, and would refuse a woman the right to commit the act, even to save her life. Is it any surprise that in these times when the world is still run in majority by men that something they still have no control over, the ability to produce and bring forth life, would be something that is jealously guarded and regulated by law? By denying a woman the right to determine whether or not to let something grow inside her, you are essentially making her nothing more than cattle upon whom to breed and breed and breed to sustain an ideal.

Abortion does not happen because people are having irresponsible sex. If it were simply a matter of that wouldn’t it be far easier to allow more extensive sexual education, and to make it easier to gain access to free birth control during the ages when children tend to have irresponsible sex. Not so, propose that to the same people who would oppose abortion and they will beat their breasts just as hard about the immorality of educating children and teens about sex.

If you ask the same people who propose abortion to adopt a black or Hispanic child who would be better served by either not being allowed to live or not becoming yet another roadblock for the development of some young girl, and they will most adamantly deny it, while claiming that abortion is wrong for the baby and that all babies have a right to live. Certainly babies have a right to live, but after they are born, what do those opponents of abortion intend to help them with? Nothing. It is all upon the poor girl, either a victim of backward society, unnecessary legislation, or inadequate education that will have to suffer for this child, and sometimes it would be better if they child just didn’t happen. Granted this final part of my argument goes more towards abortion in general, but I wanted to mention it as response to Anya’s statement about sex.

To conclude, though, banning partial birth abortions is only a small step towards a goal that would eventually work towards banning abortion altogether, and in that why I think it is certainly wrong.

 

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It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 

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  posted on 21/10/2003 at 11:25 PM
Eloquently said Domkitten.

 

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"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 05:21 AM
Thanks Dom for taking the time to post that. One thing that is also being overlooked is that there is no such thing as a "partial birth" abortion, medically speakiing. Its not like an ablation, tonsilectomy (sp?), or amputation which all exist in the medical books and in doctors minds.
There is no procedure called "partial birth" so this bill can and will have to be interpreted by whoever is in power, has no medical training, and is judging the law, not the act.
and most often what this blanket term describes is the delivery of a babay that would die all by itself if born "normally", or cases where going the rest of the pregnancy would kill the mother and probably the baby too.
You already cannot have a "by choice" abortion after the first trimester. so any second or third trimester abortion is already for some reason other than "oops i didnt mean to get preggers this time". a large percentage of them are court ordered for mentally incompetant women (as in she cant choose to have one because she cant communicate or understand what is going on or is in coma).
so this bill is more a flexing of the "muscle" of the religious conservatives and , as usual with thier laws, is based on a private version of reality that has no bearing on the how the rest of the country lives.

 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 05:22 AM
can i just include that no law has ever stopped abortions? its only made them more dangerous and more expensive.

 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 06:45 AM
I like the concept of "private version of reality". That's amusing

Anyone who has any interest in this subject at all needs to read the book "Cider House Rules"

 

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So Sayeth Me

 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 03:26 PM
of course when rape or medical emergencies are an issue common sense must intervene. no, a woman should not be judged for her decision to have an abortion, it really is between her and her god so to speak. i am pro choice for only one reason, it is better for a woman to have a choice than to bleed to death because she had an illegal abortion. it is for this reason that i feel abortions should not be prohibited. it is more common for abortions to be performed because of irresponsible sex than those issues of rape or medical emergencies. it is very rare for a woman to have an abortion due to a difficult pregnancy. there are more technological advances out there than are recognised. i cannot get over our society's callous denial of what constitutes life and what does not. some states do allow abortions up to 20 weeks. not for medical reasons either. i consider that a partial birth abortion. at 20 weeks gestation the pregnancy is nearly half over and the baby has already started kicking. to do away with such a pregnancy requires inducing labor, hence, the so called partial birth abortion, which is often unsafe for the woman involved. uterine scarring can be severe and prevent conception in the future, also infections are more likely and possible hemmoraging is more likely to occur that can be fatal.
being a woman, i realise what is at stake whenever this subject comes up. no matter how difficult the decision is for a woman the fact remains that a life is being destroyed.alas, a woman still must do what her conscience can handle and that is not for anyone else to decide but the woman involved.

 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 08:14 PM
Callei, thanks for mentioning how laws tend to just force things into darker and more dangerous corners.

Ariadne, there is no such thing as irresponsible sex. There is simply uneducated sex, and that is a far worse crime, really. Again, however, the reason that we have so much uneducated sex is because the same pro-lifers who believe that every baby is precious, also believe that the act of making babies shouldn't be talked about in school, or in the home. So what happens is you end up with the precious little babies running around in homes that are full of roaches, lead paint, asbestos, drugs, gangs, violence, murder, and all the other mean and foul dregs to be had at the bottom of society. The fact of the matter is that most of those pregnancies, however, do not end in abortion, because even though the price of an abortion is fairly small it is still large enough to dismay many a young mother who would be better off without a child.

Irresponsible sex, if you were to believe the myths, only happens in the families of well to do young girls whose parents can afford an abortion, or amongst those horrible slutty women who sleep around all the time and simply have no restraint. And of course, they should be forced to have the children too, but they can afford to take care of it, those evil, evil people. So why shouldn’t they have the option of doing so? Really, and again, education would prevent so much of this, the free distribution of condoms and birth control, a male pill, all these things would put an end to the kinds of abortions that supposedly arise because of “irresponsible sex.”


[Edited on 10/23/2003 by Domkitten]

[Edited on 10/23/2003 by Domkitten]

 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 09:31 PM
I am pro choice, first of all, so I dont agree with the government having any say in what a woman can or cannot do with her reproductive organs and what they produce. I personally would not have an abortion unless It were medically necessary, but that doesnt mean i think dubya can go around outlawing medical procedures.

 

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  posted on 22/10/2003 at 09:55 PM
I suppose uneducated sex is a more proper term. I do not have anything against pro-choice, but I do have my opinions on abortions. There are many girls though that just keep having uneducated sex, get pregnant, and then go on with having abortions. Those are the ones I am slightly bitter about. However, those who do it due to life and death situations and rape, I think that they are by all means justified.


 

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  posted on 23/10/2003 at 08:16 AM
domkitten, you have proved my point exactly. another woman can have a prochoice view for a reason that is not pc and still find argument. with this subject it is not enough to believe a woman should have a right to choose you have to have the same opinions as well. heaven forbid, that anyone dare say that women need to be more responsible because that would be way too much work. what was the women's movement about if it was not about being in CONTROL of our own bodies. you are saying there is no such thing as irresponsible sex, so women , which is most women, knowing that sex=pregnancy, then having sex w/o protection is not irresponsible? ok fine.
hey, i have been down this road, personally, i have had to choose, but just because i didn't have an abortion doesn't mean that i think women who have them are evil.
and although i agree that it is the taking of a life just the same, that does not mean that i think women shouldn't be able to have one. why isn't it enough that i would fight to keep them legal for the reasons that i stated? isn't that what the argument is about? a woman's right to choose ?
this is the "denial" in our societythat i mentioned before. lets just say that all unwanted pregnancies are the result of uneducated sex. don't you think that the uneducated are uusually minors.?if a grown woman does not know that having sex causes pregnancy then our society has a problem.

it appears that on the issue of partial birth abortions we are all incorrect to some degree.

http://www.abortionfacts.com

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by ariadne]

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by ariadne]

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by ariadne]

 

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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 11:50 AM
I've seen pictures of 22-24 week old fetuses. I think that's cruel. Unless it had to be done to save the mother.



No, a woman should not be judged for her decision to have an abortion, it really is between her and her legs so to speak.
As a male.. I have to say that if a women sleps around,and gets pregnant .. I have more respect for her if she does not have an abortion. I am not saying what is right and what is wrong. I am just speaking as a male. And since many women who get pregnant and want abortions think that this is a male society, I think my words might be inspiring.
Unless you are obducted and raped by aliens .. and that results in a pregnancy ..
then I have more respect for you if you keep the baby.
I feel that getting pregnant is the first mistake. Getting an abortion is the second one.
What strikes me is how women who get pregnant under circumstances that arent extreme, would rather make a second mistake than let their first mistake shape their lives.
More often than not , you can use that mistake to enrich your life. ..
Because regardless.. You shape yourself either way.
When they pull that baby out , they might be pulling your brains out with it.
If you cant see beyond circumstance and consequence (which is prolly why you got pregnant in the first place) , then what makes you think you'll be able to do so in the future?
Again, Im not saying that just because I am a male (I dont know if this is a typical male perspective. But I dont think it is) this is the way to reason.

The past is the reference for you to shape the present.
The present sets you up for the future.
Make it the future you want , beyond reasonable doubt.

Dont let it be a cold neglect of your actions ; (circumstances or consequences).

Do these principles really change according to on what stage a pregnancy is?

Think about it. Really think about it.


Even if you are raped by an alien. Isnt getting an abortion being raped twice? ;being further raped?
Maybe the only difference is that the further rape, is with your consent?
Women should think about that.
... God .. Must be hard to be a woman.

 

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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 12:01 PM
usually the first mistake was believing a boy would be worth the effort of having sex with or that they know how to put on the condom the right way, the second mistake is pretending that you dont know what is best for you. the third mistake is pretending that you cant hear what your body is telling you (there are some VERY interesting stats on the rate of obvious defects in aborted mass) and the third mistake is trying to put more importance on it that it really has.
The ones i respect are the ones that MAKE a choice to keep or to abort or to give up for adoption, and dont just accept the idea that they have to do one be "good".

And yes that is a pretty standard male view.

 

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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 12:34 PM
ok... there is irresponsible sex.... those that are educated and still choose to be a nimrod... that is irresponsible...

secondly... I have never onderstood how anyone who has never een through anything like that can feel that they are qualified to have any say...

 

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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 06:51 PM
How can you put a condom on wrong??????????????????????????
How??????????????

 

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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 09:00 PM
Let me start by saying that if Ron Jeremy can put his first condom on wrong, then anybody can put one on wrong.

Condoms can very easily be put on wrong. The lubricated ones are the easiest ones to do it with. If you are in a huge rush to get it out and on, then it's easy to miss which side of the tip has the lube on it. Your fingers could be numb, the lube might not be on the tip enough, or the person who opens it didn't realize it had lube on it in the first place. Then the condom is on and goes slippy slop as you go in and out.

You could store a condom in an improper way. A good way to do this is by keeping it in your wallet, seat pocket of your pants, in a sock or keeping it a place that's too hot or cold for it to be stored. You could also keep it past the expiration date.

If someone is illiterate, then he or she cannot read the directions in the first place.

If someone has long nails or sharp spots on their nails, they could rip a tiny spot in the condom and never realize it.

Someone can put the condom on after the male has already released some precum just outside or inside the vagina. Also, the person putting the condom on the penis may get a touch of precum on the outside of the condom as they are putting it on.

Some people do not realize that the condom needs to be gently rolled on, or that they should withdraw immediately after ejaculating while still holding onto the condom upper rim.

Sometimes condoms just fail because they fail.

 

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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 09:03 PM
Not to mention, sometimes the damned things fall off... had that happen once... luckily it did not result in disaster. that was a very stressful few weeks.

 

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