He he he MJ I
remember that happening the night of the senior prom. He was a worried
little fellow *pun intended* for a few weeks.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 20/2/2004 at 09:37 PM
hehe you forgot that they can dry out and crack, get roughed up and break,
and fold and break.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
daria_4
Member
Posts: 96 Registered: 29/7/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 08:22 AM
Lots of good discussion going on here... I'm hoping to add to it at least a
little.
There has been quite a bit mentioned about uneducated and/or irresponsible
sex. There is also responsible sex that just fails from time to time (we
finally started touching on it with the condom discussion). I am fucking
paranoid about getting pregnant, so I read every insert from
every medication I ever take... but many doctors fail to tell their
female patients on birth control pills that certain medications and nearly
all antibitoics will have an adverse affect on their BC pills. I am not
saying that the woman is blameless if she does no research, but I also
think it's reasonable to expect a doctor to explain side effects of
medications to their patients. I'm not on BC pills, but I am currently
taking an antibiotic, and the insert as well as the paper from the pharmacy
failed to mention one thing about the affect it would have on BC. So
sometimes, it's not just a matter of reading the labels. I know that
smoking can also affect it; most of you probably know it... but one cannot
simply expect that all women are going to know it. They've got to find out
somehow... this goes back to education--in the schools AND in doctors'
offices. Hell, maybe even those public service announcements on TV, too.
I apologize for not having a link at this time (I can probably find it
again if anyone wants it--from a paper I wrote in college), but there are
good number of married women having abortions as well. I personally don't
care if a woman is married or not as to whether or not I would label her
sexual habits irresponsible... but there are people who get this idea in
their heads that almost all abortions are being performed on the kinds of
girls who just rampantly sleep around with no protection. That's simply not
the case. And having a piece of paper that exclaims a couple married does
NOT, by any means, make them capable of raising a child. I am so sick of
people who assume marriage=babies and the ability to care for them. I don't
think anyone here would be so narrow-minded as to think that way, but
please remember that there are all kinds of women who get abortions from
all different walks of life.
Then you have people like me who do not want children ever... and who
shouldn't ever have them, either. That story is on shmeng, but I don't know
how to post links. I'm trying my damnedest to get sterilized, but it's
really hard to find a doctor who's willing to do that for me if I'm a. not
married, b. without at least 3 kids already, and c. almost 40 years old. In
the meantime, I'm being as responsible and as careful as I can be, but I
will be at the nearest clinic if my IUD ever fails me.
Now, that said, it has very little to do with late term abortions because I
wouldn't let it go that far... I realize that little to none of my post has
to do with late term abortions, but I just couldn't read all the comments
and move on quietly. I just wanted to remind people of some of the other
cirumstances that are also in play for the whole subject of abortion in
general.
____________________ "I've told you before, I don't comprehend religion, although
conviction is a concept I'm beginning to get. In any case, a person
with a real religious conviction is, I propose, a religious convict,
and deserves locking up."
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 10:18 AM
I mellowed down a bit on my view on abortion since I last visited this
thread...though I still feel it should be restricted. I'm mainly only for
it as far as medical cases go, so the partial abortion ban would not been
so bad if it allowed medical conditions to slide. I think it's wrong to
make a mother die to have a kid, or to have a kid that will never be able
to function normally. It's not even a discrimination factor, it's watching
out for a kid who will have to rely on machines to survive...do not think
that it should be having such burdens.
Abortion wouldn't be an issue for me if there were not so many women doing
the "drive-thru" ones. Girls like that really make me sick and for all I
am concerned, should have been the ones aborted. I'll even understand a
second chance and dismissing a first or second mistake, but it just sickens
me when the act is abused. I also think abortion victimizes women, which I
think is ridiculous, as well. She normally has just as fault for opening
her legs. As far as rape cases go, though, I would condone it...but I
heard that there's something you can take to prevent the pregnancy so who
knows.
I almost do not care about early abortions (though still feel drive-thru
abortions are out of control), but partial abortions, unless under medical
circumstances, is sick. A woman should not wait that long to decide to
have an abortion, especially when the baby is pretty much a living thing by
the third trimester.
This is just my humble opinion, though...I do think that health class
should give some sex education and encourage abstinence, but at the same
time, there are still some things that should be left to the parent to
teach their kid...unfortunately, though, some parents are so uptight that
they wont allow their kids to hear the word "sex" until they're married.
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 10:47 AM
late term abortions are always done for good reason, even if that reason is
that the woman in question didnt reach 18 and be able to have the abortion
until then.
as for what you call "drive thru" abortions, you dont think is it
responsible of someone that KNOWS they are too crazy immature, drug
addicted, or whatever to have abortions when her birth control fails? I
think it is a darned good thing for those that KNOW that they cant bear or
raise kids to make sure they dont.
what would they do with the kid? lose it somewhere? abuse it? put in foster
care and hope someone else wants to adopt it someday?
abortion is often, i would say almost always the most responsible thing
those woman could do.
abortions arent cheap, mores the pity, so the poor that cant afford more
kids often get stuck having the one more "straw" that does break the camels
back.
abortions are easy, they take time, drugs, and recovery time. its not like
getting a filling.
abortions are normal, women have historically aborted and women also
miscarry. Most conceptions dont go to term and end in a life birth.
abortion is also not an easy decision, but it one that most women (that can
or do conceive) will be faced with in thier lives. That means that most men
will also be faced with it.
Every baby is a gift, but some gifts dont fit and need to be taken back to
the shop.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 11:20 AM
You brought up a good point, daria, about some medicines causing birth
control pills to fail. These days a lot of women are aware about some
antibiotics causing a problem with birth control pills, but not too many
are aware of the other types of medicines that will render their b.c. pills
ineffective. Also, some medicines are hazardous to developing fetuses as
well as babies who are breastfeeding.
For instance, two medicines I take can cause problems with developing
fetuses and should not be taken during pregnancy or if you are going to
become pregnant or are breastfeeding. Another medicine that I take cautions
that if you are on birth control pills, that it can cause you to ovulate
regardless of the pills you are taking to surpress ovulation. It also says
that if your are premenopausal and not ovulating, that it can make you
resume ovulation. The one that makes you ovulate is for lowering blood
sugar. That one really surprised me. I do have my tubes tied, so no worries
of getting pregnant, but the obvious hormone effect was not something
anyone mentioned. It was in the notes I read that came with the medicine.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never
tried before." ~Mae West
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 02:17 PM
Some vitamins can effect BC pills too, as well as alcohol, lack of sleep,
or bad diet. or gettting a virus. Its kinda spooky just how ineffective BC
pills can be really.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and
vampires
/>
away.
daria_4
Member
Posts: 96 Registered: 29/7/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 04:21 PM
It's also kinda spooky how few women know about ALL the things that affect
BC pills...
____________________ "I've told you before, I don't comprehend religion, although conviction is a concept I'm beginning to get. In any case, a
person
with a real religious conviction is, I propose, a religious
convict,
and deserves locking up."
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 21/2/2004 at 04:32 PM
Which vitamins affect birth control pills? *takes out her notes so she can
keep track, just in case she has to come across these situations*
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
MystryssRavynDarque
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 648 Registered: 24/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 25/2/2004 at 10:53 AM
Okay, I would like to say first that we all have our own opinions and that
nobody should have their opinion brutally bashed. With that said, here is
what I think:
If I ever became pregnant, I would use some sort of medical treatment to
abort the pregnancy. There are pills now, and I just read an article the
other day about one that might go out into the market as an otc drug, and I
would not be against using one of these. Also, if this were not an
available option to me, I would more than likely go to an abortion clinic
to have the pregnancy terminated.
Why would I ever consider such a thing? I don't want children, I never
have. I like them for about an hour or two, but then I just cannot stand
it any longer. I don't think that I should bring a child into this world
who was not wanted, because what if the child finds that out, that would
hurt them more.
I also feel that using birth control methods such as the pill, condoms,
spermacide, diaphragms or other contraceptives is kind of the same idea as
an abortion. You use both to keep from bearing children. Contraceptives
such as these are just used before and during the sexual act to keep from
becoming pregnant, therefore, the user is trying to prevent the life of a
child being created. I take the pill, and I will have the person I have
sex with use a condom in order to prevent a pregnancy. I might also get
other forms of birth control to use as well. If either of these devices
fail, I will have an abortion.
____________________ "People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I don't
think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is the
experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell
Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 26/2/2004 at 10:39 AM
big does on b complex i think and the estrogen boosting supliments too i
think. also golden seal and ecancia (sp?) since they act rather like
antibiotics.
ash_psyche
Coward
Posts: 10 Registered: 28/10/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 8/11/2004 at 07:32 PM
I know this is a really old post and while most of you probably will not
get around to reading this, I thought it appropriate for balance and future
perusers that I throw out some facts contrary to a few of the arguments
that have been previously presented. BUT these arguments only apply
reliably to the United States, so if you've checked it out in your country
and you don't have comparable statistics, then please don't respond by
saying what a horrible person I am for attacking you. I'm not attacking
anyone. I want everyone who reads this to understand that my intention is
not to start anything or to condemn anyone. I merely wish to provide
information that I believe to be important to a more balanced take on this
issue.
Some of the posts here claimed that there wasn't irresponsible sex so much
as there was uneducated sex. I don't know where the rest of you came from,
but in California, you cannot get through the school system without going
through sex education at least once, sometimes more than once, sometimes
three times. Even wth this education, I still had a number of friends
become pregnant anyway. They did not become pregnant because they didn't
know better, they became pregnant because they didn't care to take the
precautions. They thought it wouldn't happen to them or something dumb and
immature like that. And that's OK. That's what happens in the teenage
years, it's why teens aren't considered adults yet; they do dumb things and
that's the way it is. However, when the target population of this sex ed
doesn't care or thinks themselves invincible, it makes the whole affair
kind of a waste don't you think? The teen birth rate in California in 1997
was still the second highest in America http://www.teenshelter.org/data.htm and I and my peer
group had already had our dose of education regarding the matter. I don't
think education alone does it.
It was also written that most pregnancies are not carried to term and then
result in a live birth. While that is probably a valid argument in places
where malnourishment is rampant and becoming pregnant means having the life
sucked out of you for so many months before the fetus dies anyway, I don't
see the point of justifying an abortion by saying the fetus *might* die
anyway. Well, yes, we all might die anyway, why live through tomorrow?
Thanks to decent medical, most pregnancies will carry to term (assuming
they aren't aborted). And now, more US stats straight from the center for
disease control:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/01news/trendpreg.htm
If you can't see it, it says that in 1997, of the 6 million plus
pregnancies, 3.9 million resulted in live birth, 1.3 million resulted in
induced abortions, and less than a million ended in miscarriage. That is to
say 63% ended in live birth, 21 % in abortion, and 16% miscarried.
So, that said, now I'm curious about the statistics in everyone else's
country. Yes... it makes a big difference which country you are from. And
now for something completely different but still relevant... what is the
meaning of life? What is the point of living?
____________________ All good things to know are difficult to learn
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 10/11/2004 at 06:26 AM
the only problem with your statistics is that it fails to take into account
the pregnancies that end in the first month, are had by the under educated,
or the super busy. Lots of pregnancies go "unreported" medically speaking,
oodles of pregnancies never make it past the first 48 hours.
And in California, yes you do learn about condoms (if you want to go to
hell anyways, then use a condom so you dont get AIDS, or maybe even
pregnant!). If you can still remember your sex ed classes, compare the
diagrams that you saw to ones from say Planned Parenthood. Notice the
differences, like where ovaries are and the lack of clitoris on either. You
didnt get "sex ed" you got "bad anatomy and a lecture on abstinence". and
yes i went to school in Cali too.
another interesting point... if a 19 year old gets preggers, that is
counted as the same as a 13 year old getting knocked up, even tho she is an
adult. America has the highest teen pregnacy rate of the "first world"
countries. we have had the highest rate since people started keeping track.
We dont even teach rhythm method reliably, let alone good condom ettiquette
or birth control pill management. And yet I fully support even the lame
half assed sex ed that we do teach in schools. Otherwise some kids wouldnt
hear about it at all, other than from thier equally uneducated peers.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and
vampires
/>
away.
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 10/11/2004 at 02:52 PM
Tell me about it, Callei. And if you think the public schools in
California are bad, you should try the Mennonite schools in Lancaster
County, PA. Let's just put it this way - I was well out of high school
before I became aware of the term "masturbate", and then the only
information I could get on the subject was from a hundred-year-old
Webster's Dictionary the size of a small car, and that didn't leave me much
wiser. And I was twenty or twenty-one before I encountered the concept of
orgasm, thanks to a sex-help book in the house of an older married friend.
Of course, you must understand that this woman was sort of on the fringe
edges of our church, or else she would have been far too holy to purchase a
book on that subject, married or not.
And I really had no clear idea of what a penis and set of balls looked
like, except in non-erect cross-section mode, for quite some time. I
think, actually, until the night I lost my virginity, although I may have
come across some naughty pictures at some point before then. (For those
who don't know, I lost my virginity when I was 24.) I remember, however,
that being confronted for the first time with the vision of my partner's
fully aroused manhood gave me a bit of a shock. It's not something that a
cross-section diagram can every fully prepare you for.
Of course, as far as birth-control methods, I was informed that unprotected
sex can cause pregnancy and spread STD's, and was given a brief (very
brief) overview of various types of birth-control, of course with the
assurance that abstinence until marriage (to someone who has likewise
abstained) was the truly best way to go. I certainly never experienced the
classic condom-on-a-banana demonstration.
Hooray for religiously-condoned sex-ed. Let's keep everyone as ignorant as
possible, so they'll be too scared to do anything but what we tell them.
I'm certainly going to make sure MY daughter doesn't grow up with blinders
on like that.
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
ash_psyche
Coward
Posts: 10 Registered: 28/10/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 11/11/2004 at 11:04 PM
Callei: since I don't have time right now to do the extra research to
completely answer your post, I'll just throw out some preliminary ideas for
now.
quote: the only problem with
your statistics is that it fails to take into account the pregnancies that
end in the first month, are had by the under educated, or the super busy.
Lots of pregnancies go "unreported" medically speaking, oodles of
pregnancies never make it past the first 48 hours.
First, what exactly makes you think that these stats don't take those
things into account? I've always been under the impression that the people
that the CDC, of all institutions, had running these statistics were smart
enough to take those kinds of things into consideration and make allowances
for them. Otherwise, I don't see why they would go to all the trouble of
throwing out money to get inaccurate stats. That isn't to say that they are
right on, but only that they are reasonably accurate and that reasonable
conclusions can be made from them. As for pregnancies that never make it
past the first 48 hours, it is true that nobody knows how many of those
there are because the women themselves don't yet know they are pregnant. In
light of that, such knowlege would be useless anyway because in order to
make a decision about whether or not to abort, one would have to know they
are pregnant first.
As far as sex ed classes go, I never had the pleasure () of attending a
sex ed class run by/attended by Planned Parenthood reps. Even if I had, I
doubt I would have remembered their diagrams anyway. The only thing I
clearly remember was the live birth video (*shudder) and I wish to God I
didn't. It was also never mentioned that you would go to hell for having
sex (hooray for private schools) outside of marriage. Come to think of it,
I'm not entirely sure they mentioned abstinence either. While the anatomy
might have been a bit (or a lot) skewed, the information about what does
and does not constitute 'responsible sex' was still there. The risks were
all mentioned save the risk of taking certain medicine (or vitamins?) while
on birth control. Oh yeah, we didn't get the condom on a bannana thing. I
think they figured that if we were smart enough to put on our own socks,
then we were smart enough to put on a condom. I always kinda wondered how
stupid they must think we are to show us how a condom works. But then,
there must be more stupid people than I realize. Whatever that means,
stupid being a relative term...
Schizo: Holy shit, that sucks. Man I'm glad I didn't get put into THAT kind
of Christian school. People who think sheltering is the way to go need a
huge dose of harsh reality.
____________________ All good things to know are difficult to learn
ash_psyche
Coward
Posts: 10 Registered: 28/10/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 11/11/2004 at 11:08 PM
Grrrr... stupid emoticons actually turning into yellow smiley faces. That
was supposed to be a look of disgusted horror. I would like to lodge a
complaint.
____________________ All good things to know are difficult to learn
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 12/11/2004 at 01:46 AM
quote:First, what exactly
makes you think that these stats don't take those things into account? I've
always been under the impression that the people that the CDC, of all
institutions, had running these statistics were smart enough to take those
kinds of things into consideration and make allowances for them.
Here is one more link to throw into the mix. It's not the CDC, but then
again, there are other sources of reliable and unreliable medical
information out there. Some are small independent research groups, some are
large well-known organizations and some are accurate enough for what they
are trying to give the people as the government's official stand on things.
This is just a link. So take from it what you will.
no offense intended... but I have to say that anyone that would take a
governmental office/institution at face value is making a possibly fatal
error
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Domkitten
Fanatic
Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 12/11/2004 at 06:48 AM
You know, Ash, you must be write, if someone took all the time and trouble
to make up those statistics, why in the world would they lie. I mean, what
motive could it possible serve to lie about something like that.
And, of course, condoms are just like a sock, all you have to do is unroll
them and slip them on, I can't see how people can possible be so stupid as
to not get that.
Who needs sex ed, really, it is so obvious what sex will do to you. Thank
so much for sharing that insight with us, I don't know how we would have
gone on without it.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus