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Author: Subject: Senate Oks Partial Abortion Ban

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 618
Registered: 27/9/2002
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  posted on 20/2/2004 at 09:32 PM
He he he MJ I remember that happening the night of the senior prom. He was a worried little fellow *pun intended* for a few weeks.

 

____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 20/2/2004 at 09:37 PM
hehe you forgot that they can dry out and crack, get roughed up and break, and fold and break.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires away.

 

Member




Posts: 96
Registered: 29/7/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 21/2/2004 at 08:22 AM
Lots of good discussion going on here... I'm hoping to add to it at least a little.

There has been quite a bit mentioned about uneducated and/or irresponsible sex. There is also responsible sex that just fails from time to time (we finally started touching on it with the condom discussion). I am fucking paranoid about getting pregnant, so I read every insert from every medication I ever take... but many doctors fail to tell their female patients on birth control pills that certain medications and nearly all antibitoics will have an adverse affect on their BC pills. I am not saying that the woman is blameless if she does no research, but I also think it's reasonable to expect a doctor to explain side effects of medications to their patients. I'm not on BC pills, but I am currently taking an antibiotic, and the insert as well as the paper from the pharmacy failed to mention one thing about the affect it would have on BC. So sometimes, it's not just a matter of reading the labels. I know that smoking can also affect it; most of you probably know it... but one cannot simply expect that all women are going to know it. They've got to find out somehow... this goes back to education--in the schools AND in doctors' offices. Hell, maybe even those public service announcements on TV, too.
I apologize for not having a link at this time (I can probably find it again if anyone wants it--from a paper I wrote in college), but there are good number of married women having abortions as well. I personally don't care if a woman is married or not as to whether or not I would label her sexual habits irresponsible... but there are people who get this idea in their heads that almost all abortions are being performed on the kinds of girls who just rampantly sleep around with no protection. That's simply not the case. And having a piece of paper that exclaims a couple married does NOT, by any means, make them capable of raising a child. I am so sick of people who assume marriage=babies and the ability to care for them. I don't think anyone here would be so narrow-minded as to think that way, but please remember that there are all kinds of women who get abortions from all different walks of life.
Then you have people like me who do not want children ever... and who shouldn't ever have them, either. That story is on shmeng, but I don't know how to post links. I'm trying my damnedest to get sterilized, but it's really hard to find a doctor who's willing to do that for me if I'm a. not married, b. without at least 3 kids already, and c. almost 40 years old. In the meantime, I'm being as responsible and as careful as I can be, but I will be at the nearest clinic if my IUD ever fails me.
Now, that said, it has very little to do with late term abortions because I wouldn't let it go that far... I realize that little to none of my post has to do with late term abortions, but I just couldn't read all the comments and move on quietly. I just wanted to remind people of some of the other cirumstances that are also in play for the whole subject of abortion in general.

 

____________________
"I've told you before, I don't comprehend religion, although conviction is a concept I'm beginning to get. In any case, a person with a real religious conviction is, I propose, a religious convict, and deserves locking up."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 656
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 21/2/2004 at 10:18 AM
I mellowed down a bit on my view on abortion since I last visited this thread...though I still feel it should be restricted. I'm mainly only for it as far as medical cases go, so the partial abortion ban would not been so bad if it allowed medical conditions to slide. I think it's wrong to make a mother die to have a kid, or to have a kid that will never be able to function normally. It's not even a discrimination factor, it's watching out for a kid who will have to rely on machines to survive...do not think that it should be having such burdens.

Abortion wouldn't be an issue for me if there were not so many women doing the "drive-thru" ones. Girls like that really make me sick and for all I am concerned, should have been the ones aborted. I'll even understand a second chance and dismissing a first or second mistake, but it just sickens me when the act is abused. I also think abortion victimizes women, which I think is ridiculous, as well. She normally has just as fault for opening her legs. As far as rape cases go, though, I would condone it...but I heard that there's something you can take to prevent the pregnancy so who knows.

I almost do not care about early abortions (though still feel drive-thru abortions are out of control), but partial abortions, unless under medical circumstances, is sick. A woman should not wait that long to decide to have an abortion, especially when the baby is pretty much a living thing by the third trimester.


This is just my humble opinion, though...I do think that health class should give some sex education and encourage abstinence, but at the same time, there are still some things that should be left to the parent to teach their kid...unfortunately, though, some parents are so uptight that they wont allow their kids to hear the word "sex" until they're married.

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 21/2/2004 at 10:47 AM
late term abortions are always done for good reason, even if that reason is that the woman in question didnt reach 18 and be able to have the abortion until then.
as for what you call "drive thru" abortions, you dont think is it responsible of someone that KNOWS they are too crazy immature, drug addicted, or whatever to have abortions when her birth control fails? I think it is a darned good thing for those that KNOW that they cant bear or raise kids to make sure they dont.
what would they do with the kid? lose it somewhere? abuse it? put in foster care and hope someone else wants to adopt it someday?
abortion is often, i would say almost always the most responsible thing those woman could do.
abortions arent cheap, mores the pity, so the poor that cant afford more kids often get stuck having the one more "straw" that does break the camels back.
abortions are easy, they take time, drugs, and recovery time. its not like getting a filling.
abortions are normal, women have historically aborted and women also miscarry. Most conceptions dont go to term and end in a life birth.
abortion is also not an easy decision, but it one that most women (that can or do conceive) will be faced with in thier lives. That means that most men will also be faced with it.
Every baby is a gift, but some gifts dont fit and need to be taken back to the shop.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 618
Registered: 27/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 21/2/2004 at 11:20 AM
You brought up a good point, daria, about some medicines causing birth control pills to fail. These days a lot of women are aware about some antibiotics causing a problem with birth control pills, but not too many are aware of the other types of medicines that will render their b.c. pills ineffective. Also, some medicines are hazardous to developing fetuses as well as babies who are breastfeeding.

For instance, two medicines I take can cause problems with developing fetuses and should not be taken during pregnancy or if you are going to become pregnant or are breastfeeding. Another medicine that I take cautions that if you are on birth control pills, that it can cause you to ovulate regardless of the pills you are taking to surpress ovulation. It also says that if your are premenopausal and not ovulating, that it can make you resume ovulation. The one that makes you ovulate is for lowering blood sugar. That one really surprised me. I do have my tubes tied, so no worries of getting pregnant, but the obvious hormone effect was not something anyone mentioned. It was in the notes I read that came with the medicine.

 

____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West




 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 21/2/2004 at 02:17 PM
Some vitamins can effect BC pills too, as well as alcohol, lack of sleep, or bad diet. or gettting a virus. Its kinda spooky just how ineffective BC pills can be really.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires />
away.

 

Member




Posts: 96
Registered: 29/7/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 21/2/2004 at 04:21 PM
It's also kinda spooky how few women know about ALL the things that affect BC pills...

 

____________________
"I've told you before, I don't comprehend religion, although
conviction is a concept I'm beginning to get. In any case, a person
with a real religious conviction is, I propose, a religious convict,
and deserves locking up."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 656
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 21/2/2004 at 04:32 PM
Which vitamins affect birth control pills? *takes out her notes so she can keep track, just in case she has to come across these situations*
 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 22/2/2004 at 07:09 PM
hence the reason I am getting a vasectomy...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 648
Registered: 24/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 25/2/2004 at 10:53 AM
Okay, I would like to say first that we all have our own opinions and that nobody should have their opinion brutally bashed. With that said, here is what I think:

If I ever became pregnant, I would use some sort of medical treatment to abort the pregnancy. There are pills now, and I just read an article the other day about one that might go out into the market as an otc drug, and I would not be against using one of these. Also, if this were not an available option to me, I would more than likely go to an abortion clinic to have the pregnancy terminated.

Why would I ever consider such a thing? I don't want children, I never have. I like them for about an hour or two, but then I just cannot stand it any longer. I don't think that I should bring a child into this world who was not wanted, because what if the child finds that out, that would hurt them more.

I also feel that using birth control methods such as the pill, condoms, spermacide, diaphragms or other contraceptives is kind of the same idea as an abortion. You use both to keep from bearing children. Contraceptives such as these are just used before and during the sexual act to keep from becoming pregnant, therefore, the user is trying to prevent the life of a child being created. I take the pill, and I will have the person I have sex with use a condom in order to prevent a pregnancy. I might also get other forms of birth control to use as well. If either of these devices fail, I will have an abortion.

 

____________________
"People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I don't think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is the experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell

 





Posts: 116
Registered: 14/4/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 26/2/2004 at 10:39 AM
big does on b complex i think and the estrogen boosting supliments too i think. also golden seal and ecancia (sp?) since they act rather like antibiotics.
 

Coward




Posts: 10
Registered: 28/10/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/11/2004 at 07:32 PM
I know this is a really old post and while most of you probably will not get around to reading this, I thought it appropriate for balance and future perusers that I throw out some facts contrary to a few of the arguments that have been previously presented. BUT these arguments only apply reliably to the United States, so if you've checked it out in your country and you don't have comparable statistics, then please don't respond by saying what a horrible person I am for attacking you. I'm not attacking anyone. I want everyone who reads this to understand that my intention is not to start anything or to condemn anyone. I merely wish to provide information that I believe to be important to a more balanced take on this issue.

Some of the posts here claimed that there wasn't irresponsible sex so much as there was uneducated sex. I don't know where the rest of you came from, but in California, you cannot get through the school system without going through sex education at least once, sometimes more than once, sometimes three times. Even wth this education, I still had a number of friends become pregnant anyway. They did not become pregnant because they didn't know better, they became pregnant because they didn't care to take the precautions. They thought it wouldn't happen to them or something dumb and immature like that. And that's OK. That's what happens in the teenage years, it's why teens aren't considered adults yet; they do dumb things and that's the way it is. However, when the target population of this sex ed doesn't care or thinks themselves invincible, it makes the whole affair kind of a waste don't you think? The teen birth rate in California in 1997 was still the second highest in America http://www.teenshelter.org/data.htm and I and my peer group had already had our dose of education regarding the matter. I don't think education alone does it.

It has also been posted that there was no such thing as a "partial birth abortion" medically speaking. Maybe not as defined by the medical community, but it was defined in the bill recently outlawing partial birth abortion; and here is that bill http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/partial_birth_abortion_Ban_act_final_langu age.htm

It was also written that most pregnancies are not carried to term and then result in a live birth. While that is probably a valid argument in places where malnourishment is rampant and becoming pregnant means having the life sucked out of you for so many months before the fetus dies anyway, I don't see the point of justifying an abortion by saying the fetus *might* die anyway. Well, yes, we all might die anyway, why live through tomorrow? Thanks to decent medical, most pregnancies will carry to term (assuming they aren't aborted). And now, more US stats straight from the center for disease control: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/01news/trendpreg.htm
If you can't see it, it says that in 1997, of the 6 million plus pregnancies, 3.9 million resulted in live birth, 1.3 million resulted in induced abortions, and less than a million ended in miscarriage. That is to say 63% ended in live birth, 21 % in abortion, and 16% miscarried.

So, that said, now I'm curious about the statistics in everyone else's country. Yes... it makes a big difference which country you are from. And now for something completely different but still relevant... what is the meaning of life? What is the point of living?

 

____________________
All good things to know are difficult to learn

 

Extreme Fanatic




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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 10/11/2004 at 06:26 AM
the only problem with your statistics is that it fails to take into account the pregnancies that end in the first month, are had by the under educated, or the super busy. Lots of pregnancies go "unreported" medically speaking, oodles of pregnancies never make it past the first 48 hours.
And in California, yes you do learn about condoms (if you want to go to hell anyways, then use a condom so you dont get AIDS, or maybe even pregnant!). If you can still remember your sex ed classes, compare the diagrams that you saw to ones from say Planned Parenthood. Notice the differences, like where ovaries are and the lack of clitoris on either. You didnt get "sex ed" you got "bad anatomy and a lecture on abstinence". and yes i went to school in Cali too.

another interesting point... if a 19 year old gets preggers, that is counted as the same as a 13 year old getting knocked up, even tho she is an adult. America has the highest teen pregnacy rate of the "first world" countries. we have had the highest rate since people started keeping track. We dont even teach rhythm method reliably, let alone good condom ettiquette or birth control pill management. And yet I fully support even the lame half assed sex ed that we do teach in schools. Otherwise some kids wouldnt hear about it at all, other than from thier equally uneducated peers.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and
vampires
/>

away.

 

Extreme Fanatic




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Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/11/2004 at 02:52 PM
Tell me about it, Callei. And if you think the public schools in California are bad, you should try the Mennonite schools in Lancaster County, PA. Let's just put it this way - I was well out of high school before I became aware of the term "masturbate", and then the only information I could get on the subject was from a hundred-year-old Webster's Dictionary the size of a small car, and that didn't leave me much wiser. And I was twenty or twenty-one before I encountered the concept of orgasm, thanks to a sex-help book in the house of an older married friend. Of course, you must understand that this woman was sort of on the fringe edges of our church, or else she would have been far too holy to purchase a book on that subject, married or not.

And I really had no clear idea of what a penis and set of balls looked like, except in non-erect cross-section mode, for quite some time. I think, actually, until the night I lost my virginity, although I may have come across some naughty pictures at some point before then. (For those who don't know, I lost my virginity when I was 24.) I remember, however, that being confronted for the first time with the vision of my partner's fully aroused manhood gave me a bit of a shock. It's not something that a cross-section diagram can every fully prepare you for.

Of course, as far as birth-control methods, I was informed that unprotected sex can cause pregnancy and spread STD's, and was given a brief (very brief) overview of various types of birth-control, of course with the assurance that abstinence until marriage (to someone who has likewise abstained) was the truly best way to go. I certainly never experienced the classic condom-on-a-banana demonstration.

Hooray for religiously-condoned sex-ed. Let's keep everyone as ignorant as possible, so they'll be too scared to do anything but what we tell them. I'm certainly going to make sure MY daughter doesn't grow up with blinders on like that.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Coward




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Registered: 28/10/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/11/2004 at 11:04 PM
Callei: since I don't have time right now to do the extra research to completely answer your post, I'll just throw out some preliminary ideas for now.

quote:
the only problem with your statistics is that it fails to take into account the pregnancies that end in the first month, are had by the under educated, or the super busy. Lots of pregnancies go "unreported" medically speaking, oodles of pregnancies never make it past the first 48 hours.


First, what exactly makes you think that these stats don't take those things into account? I've always been under the impression that the people that the CDC, of all institutions, had running these statistics were smart enough to take those kinds of things into consideration and make allowances for them. Otherwise, I don't see why they would go to all the trouble of throwing out money to get inaccurate stats. That isn't to say that they are right on, but only that they are reasonably accurate and that reasonable conclusions can be made from them. As for pregnancies that never make it past the first 48 hours, it is true that nobody knows how many of those there are because the women themselves don't yet know they are pregnant. In light of that, such knowlege would be useless anyway because in order to make a decision about whether or not to abort, one would have to know they are pregnant first.

As far as sex ed classes go, I never had the pleasure () of attending a sex ed class run by/attended by Planned Parenthood reps. Even if I had, I doubt I would have remembered their diagrams anyway. The only thing I clearly remember was the live birth video (*shudder) and I wish to God I didn't. It was also never mentioned that you would go to hell for having sex (hooray for private schools) outside of marriage. Come to think of it, I'm not entirely sure they mentioned abstinence either. While the anatomy might have been a bit (or a lot) skewed, the information about what does and does not constitute 'responsible sex' was still there. The risks were all mentioned save the risk of taking certain medicine (or vitamins?) while on birth control. Oh yeah, we didn't get the condom on a bannana thing. I think they figured that if we were smart enough to put on our own socks, then we were smart enough to put on a condom. I always kinda wondered how stupid they must think we are to show us how a condom works. But then, there must be more stupid people than I realize. Whatever that means, stupid being a relative term...

Schizo: Holy shit, that sucks. Man I'm glad I didn't get put into THAT kind of Christian school. People who think sheltering is the way to go need a huge dose of harsh reality.

 

____________________
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Coward




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  posted on 11/11/2004 at 11:08 PM
Grrrr... stupid emoticons actually turning into yellow smiley faces. That was supposed to be a look of disgusted horror. I would like to lodge a complaint.

 

____________________
All good things to know are difficult to learn

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 618
Registered: 27/9/2002
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  posted on 12/11/2004 at 01:46 AM
quote:
First, what exactly makes you think that these stats don't take those things into account? I've always been under the impression that the people that the CDC, of all institutions, had running these statistics were smart enough to take those kinds of things into consideration and make allowances for them.


Here is one more link to throw into the mix. It's not the CDC, but then again, there are other sources of reliable and unreliable medical information out there. Some are small independent research groups, some are large well-known organizations and some are accurate enough for what they are trying to give the people as the government's official stand on things. This is just a link. So take from it what you will.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_late.htm

 

____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never

tried before." ~Mae West






 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 12/11/2004 at 05:54 AM
no offense intended... but I have to say that anyone that would take a governmental office/institution at face value is making a possibly fatal error

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




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Registered: 23/9/2002
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  posted on 12/11/2004 at 06:48 AM
You know, Ash, you must be write, if someone took all the time and trouble to make up those statistics, why in the world would they lie. I mean, what motive could it possible serve to lie about something like that.

And, of course, condoms are just like a sock, all you have to do is unroll them and slip them on, I can't see how people can possible be so stupid as to not get that.

Who needs sex ed, really, it is so obvious what sex will do to you. Thank so much for sharing that insight with us, I don't know how we would have gone on without it.

 

____________________
It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 
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