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Author: Subject: Religion in School

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  posted on 5/4/2004 at 05:24 PM
A few weeks ago, a local public school found out that preachers had been signing in as guests and eating lunch with elementary students. The preachers sat with students who went to their churches, and some sat with students they didn't know. Either way, religion and why those students needed to be religious became the topic of discussion. When the school officials realized what was going on, the shit pretty much hit the fan. Parents got pissed because these people could just walk into the school and do pretty much whatever they wanted to with the students as long as they weren't infringing on class time. Parents got pissed because their 8 year olds were told they were going to hell because they didn't worship under a particular religion or attend a specific church. Other parents got mad because they liked the preachers being able to go into the school and talk to the students about god.. They felt it was something the normal school day was lacking, and of course it's lacking in public schools because the majority of people feel it is not a school appropriate topic.
The bigger result of all this is a state-wide contraversy about allowing preachers into the schools to talk to students during their lunch times. The bible thumpers like it because they want to "get in touch with the youth." However, they threw a fit when they were told that because of the discrimination laws, they would also have to allow Satanist or Pagan Ministers too. There was also some talk about them also having to allow cult leaders if they allowed some of the mainstream religious groups into the schools.
It hasn't ended yet. The churches are still pushing to be let into the schools and pushing that only religions that worship God (i really don't see how they can argue that, because who can say who god really is) be let into the schools. As of right now, the principals of the schools are allowed to oversee any religious person visiting the school, though they are urged to not let preachers in.
What do you all think about all this?

 

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  posted on 5/4/2004 at 05:43 PM
I feel that if a religion is being forcibly taught in a school, then that school had better be a private school run by that religion.

 

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  posted on 5/4/2004 at 06:43 PM
That's pretty much how I see it. If it's a religious school, then by all means preach away. But, in public school, religions shouldn't be forced onto student's who don't want them. I think it's horrible that those little kids were harassed like that while they were trying to eat their lunches and pretty much just take the break that lunch time offers school kids. Since it's such a big deal, a solution to it would be to make a class that teaches a little bit about ALL religions and turn it into an elective. Then eventually, everyone would get their way. Religion would be taught in school only to the students who chose to learn it, and if aspects of all religions were being taught, then discrimination couldn't easily be argued.

 

____________________
In my eyes, to be human is not to be able to live and die, but it is to
feel pain, love, happiness, and all other things that keep our hearts from
freezing over into the bloody ice that distinguishes man from the beasts of
night.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 12:02 AM
I don't see how this is being forcibly taught. Since it is happening in the kids own time, they are free to get up and leave. And if you think an eight year old won't do something like that, then you need to spend more time around eight year olds.
I don't think they should be allowed on campus, however, because then you really would have to let everyone else on. That seriously compromises the safety of those kids. There is no way in hell you can screen everyone, and so you would have no assurances that the people are kid-friendly.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 12:25 AM
yeah... that is not forcible... i do agree they have no business doing that... but not for the reasons listed...

An adult that has no business on campus should not be allowed there... and these guys fall under that...

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 02:04 AM
Do yoo happen to have a link to documentation? If it's true, I could really use this as ammo for my documentary....

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 07:08 AM
are they also letting in the mattel salespeople? and the dora the explorer people? and the nike people and all the other sales people that want to brand kids to line thier pockets?

are the kids acting out, not consentrating after talking to them, or not eating thier lunches? are they going to the school conselor in tears?

Has the violence gone up yet? (this happened at one school where they started having prayer meetings at lunch. the kids in the prayer meets started being more violent in the afternoon. california in the late 80's i think)

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 08:11 AM
According to my American Government class, in schools, it's the teachers that have to keep the religious stuff under the minimal. Kids who want to pray in silence are allowed to do so. Since the person isn't a teacher and he isn't taking anyone's class time, he is permitted to visit the kids if he seems fit. Like Merry Widow says, they can simply just walk off if they are not interested in his preaching.


As long as he isn't harassing the children, he's allowed to have his own thoughts. While I disagree with the advertising, he is allowed to do so. I think people are so caught up into their dislike for organized religion that they feel the need to repress it. Do not get me wrong, I dislike some of the churches out there, but in turn, they are allowed to have their own opinions. There is a fine line between theocracy and anti-religion sentimentism - crossing that line makes us no better than the theocrats.

My humble input.

[Edited on 4/6/2004 by Anya]

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 08:17 AM
I understand your woes Raven, I'll not deny that. I would have been on the edge of this too and I used to get pissed off. Eventually though I had to accept that acting on the rage by going to the anti-religion sentimentism level would not make me any better and that even religious people are allowed to have a voice. As long as they're not infringing on everyone else's freedom of religion or breaking the law, then they are allowed to do what they wish.


Callei: Some provoking questions. I am wondering the same myself, despite my stance on the issue.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 08:34 AM
I'd like to know what the hell kinda loophole is going on in your school administration that random fucking guests are being allowed to sign in and go sit with 8 year old kids at lunch.

I don't care who you are or what your selling, if your not a parent, you simply have no right to be in the building with those kids, period. This is why we have laws that prevent sexual predators from going within a 300 feet of a school. Someone is really dropping the ball if they are letting people sign in as guest and go eat with the kids.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 08:48 AM
If that is the case, the school I go to is VERY uptight on that subject. In matter of fact, at my previous school, I was allowed to talk to teachers on a normal basis and not just in class. At the school I go to, though, they think either something is wrong with you if you talk to the teachers outside of school or suspect some relationship going on, which is never even in my head.

*shakes head* I personally think some schools are too uptight on some of this stuff. I understand being concerned for the children's safety, but some places are way too nosey. Just because I have a normal conversation with adults doesn't mean that I am going to try to seduce them or anything. I guess Freud was right when he thought that sex was all that people think about...at least in the area that I live in. The only teacher that doesn't see things like that is my American Government instructor, but of course, he flunked his own son so it's obvious that he knows his place.

I had a social worker and/or psychologist called on me twice here to ask me if I am a rape victim or something (some of my art is erotic, but not really anything big going on)...it was my personal sketchbook for crying out loud and the art teacher wanted to see it privately. I even told her that I draw that stuff sometimes and it didn't mean that I was raped or anything...she still sent a social worker of sorts on me.

On top of that, every time that the Assistant Principal calls me in, she doesn't stop telling me about "boss-worker relations at school". Not like I didn't know that from the first twenty times she told me. She just keeps telling me, even when I am not crossing any of those "borders" that they have. Eh, I'm sorry that people here are too concerned about their public image.

Anyway, that's a piece of my mind on how I feel on the uptightness of certain school systems...mainly the ones in California.



[Edited on 4/6/2004 by Anya]

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 09:40 AM
Damn.

My school is in the middle of a "church on every corner" town. We have at least 3 Christian church related clubs in my school, and some students gather together behind part of the school in the morning to sing and read the bible. Though our school doesn't have a Gay Straight Alliance, and one of my friends told me that we aren't going to have one because of the number of Christian clubs. Perhaps they think trying to unite people will cause too many problems when you are trying to make peace between people. At my old high school in the next city over (it is a bigger city), they have two Gay Straight Alliances.

On the morning announcements at my school they play music before they begin with their information. One morning they played a Christian song, and I thought to myself "So now that they've played this, when are they going to play something that has to do with another religion?" They tried to mask the song by making it a rock and roll song, but it didn't work, I could hear the words and I knew the song.

To respond to the information given here, I must say that if a preachers of the christian faith can sign in as a guest and come have lunch with students, then preachers of other faiths should also be allowed. If a Buddhist, or Hindu, or even Satanist wanted to enter the school and talk to the children about their beliefs, they also should be allowed in. I also think that any of my friends that don't go to school with me should be able to come in and have lunch with me.

Anyone want to come eat lunch with me at school?

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 10:05 AM
quote:

As long as he isn't harassing the children, he's allowed to have his own thoughts. While I disagree with the advertising, he is allowed to do so. I think people are so caught up into their dislike for organized religion that they feel the need to repress it. Do not get me wrong, I dislike some of the churches out there, but in turn, they are allowed to have their own opinions. There is a fine line between theocracy and anti-religion sentimentism - crossing that line makes us no better than the theocrats.


I have to disagree with you Anya. I think that telling an 8 year old that they are going to hell because their parents are taking them to the wrong church or because they are Jewish or their family is Wiccan is harrassment. If they were going in and speaking with teenagers then I would agree that it is as simple as the kids getting up and walking away.

When a child is 8 years old they are still learning about the world. They are open to suggestion and guilt. If that wasn't the case you wouldn't get a kid walking off with a stranger in a park to "help them find their puppy". They are easy to lead in the direction you want them to go if you know what to say. Even if that direction is the wrong direction. If this was not true then the preachers would be going to middle schools and high schools and not just elementary schools.

What they are doing is wrong. I don't think that they, or any other religion, should be allowed to go in and sit with these kids during lunch. Religion should be reserved for chuch and education for school.

Also think of the danger this puts the kids into. A man could walk into the school claiming to be a preacher, take a kid into another room and.... you get the idea. I, as a parent, would be furious if ANYONE that was not staff of the school, a parent of a student or someone in my family had lunch with my child at school. No matter what they were talking about.

[Edited on 4/6/04 by EyeCandyRayce]

[Edited on 4/6/04 by EyeCandyRayce]

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 10:30 AM
when i was 8 i didn't even know HOW to walk away from an adult, and at that age i never knew i had the right or ability to disagree with any authority figure.

if you guys know an 8 year old that can do that then that's freaking fantastic, their parents have done a good job. i, on the other hand, was taught to do nothing more than obey and trust adults.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 10:34 AM
I find it interesting that people throw a fit if someone lets their kids into a PG13 movie without parents consent. By that logic, how is it okay to expose yor kids to a viewpoint as violent, gorey, and radical as Xianity without parental consent?

 

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die so i could watch, and then me die.




-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 10:40 AM
It's weird. The place that I go to school at right now actually has a few Christian clubs. I think people are allowed to have other clubs, but I suppose not many feel the need to. I'm sure if I looked hard enough there'd be an Islam alliance of sort (there's a lot of Muslims in my school).

Either way, it doesn't say anything in the Constitution against people signing in like that as long as they're not taking people's school time.

Rayce: I suppose it's a matter of opinion. Maybe it's the fact that I'm too used to hearing the phrase that it isn't harassment to me unless they are stalking me all day, pestering me about it. If the children are intimidated, then I suppose that the teachers should take notice of the preacher and assure that the children can come to them if he becomes a problem and/or if they feel harassed. Nowadays, just speaking an opinion to someone who doesn't like it can be considered harassment - even if the person didn't intend to harass anyone; everyone's tolerance levels are different. I still stand where I believe though as far as not going to the anti-religious sentimentalist side OR the theocratic side. I don't see how religious people going to secular schools violate the Separation of Church and State issue (though I do think they should be going to the religious private schools if they want to spread "the Word", I know that segregation doesn't make anything better).

Children should be nurtured and guided by their parents. Teachers should keep an eye on them to an extent, of course, but children shouldn't be raised by the school - that's the parent's job. Despite how I feel about some parents today, it isn't the government's job to babysit people. Yes, protect the people's rights, but not babysit them. That's one of my little peeves about the school I go to.

To make all things fair, yes - the parents should express certain concerns to the teachers, but in the end, that is their responsibility.

Squid: There's violence in all myths and history. Look at the Greek and Roman myths or even the Irish Invasions. In fact, Hindu mythos have Kali drinking the blood of a demon.




[Edited on 4/6/2004 by Anya]

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 11:01 AM
Speaking of schools, there are actually some that involve no religion. Period. In fact, they do not even allow children to wear symbols (yes, including crosses).

I just think it's funny that everyone is quick to blame Abrahamic faiths for being all bloody, gorey, and violent. Yes, it is the most noticable violence, but what about the tribal wars in the past? The other conquerings of cultures in the world? Didn't Zeus swallow the mother of Pallas Athena before she was born? Wasn't there War in Olympus on a several occasions? Why don't people point that out?

Violence, blood, and gore have always been a part of human history. They even theorize early primates acting bestial.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 11:16 AM
quote:
Speaking of schools, there are actually some that involve no religion. Period. In fact, they do not even allow children to wear symbols (yes, including crosses).

I just think it's funny that everyone is quick to blame Abrahamic faiths for being all bloody, gorey, and violent. Yes, it is the most noticable violence, but what about the tribal wars in the past? The other conquerings of cultures in the world? Didn't Zeus swallow the mother of Pallas Athena before she was born? Wasn't there War in Olympus on a several occasions? Why don't people point that out?

Violence, blood, and gore have always been a part of human history. They even theorize early primates acting bestial.


I agree with you there. I personally have worked to raise my child so that she is aware that violence is part of human nature. That it exists in history and now. Some parents would say I am teacher her violence but I can tell you right now that even though I allow her to watch horror flicks, history documentaries on war and violence and war movies that she has never been in a fight and is a loving and caring person.

I don't believe in hiding children from the truth. The truth is that our history is filled with violence. Nature is filled with violence. It part of our existance and hiding kids from it just means they will have trouble processing it later.

But this is an entirely different subject than religion in schools.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 11:32 AM
quote:

Children should be nurtured and guided by their parents. Teachers should keep an eye on them to an extent, of course, but children shouldn't be raised by the school - that's the parent's job. Despite how I feel about some parents today, it isn't the government's job to babysit people. Yes, protect the people's rights, but not babysit them. That's one of my little peeves about the school I go to.


I agree that children shouldn't be raised by the schools but until a child reaches a certain age the school is their babysitter. That is just fact. You cannot say that a 1st grade student is independent enough not to require someone to look out for them the entire day. Now if the child is say 14 then I expect the school to back off and allow them to be independent as is their age as long as they are not harming others, themselves and taking care of their education.

But again this has nothing to do with the present topic. If you think that an 8 year old is a strong enough independent thinker to express their discomfort with something an adult is saying or doing to them then you are wrong. Look at how many children get molested or abused and never realize they had the right to stop it until they get older.

For me this really has nothing to do with religion. This has to do with how I would feel about people I didn't know that was not school staff and not another childs parent going into the school and speaking with my child without my permission. As a parent I would be furious that they were allowing it to happen.

I support them allowing the preachers to come to the school for after school classes that they kids and parents could sign up for if they MUST have religion in school but not for just talking with random kids without the parents permission.

 

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  posted on 6/4/2004 at 12:23 PM
Yes, every religion has violence in it's mythology but with the exception of Judaism but more especially it's "spin-off" religions Xianity and Islam, I have yet to hear of any doctrines in any of the other major religions preaching that those who cannot be converted must be destroyed.

Xianity especially is one of the most bigoted hypocritical religions on Earth. This is not to say that the Xians themselves are neccessarily bigots or hypocrites. I am not saying that the Bible is neccessarily bigoted or hypocritical (I'm holding back commenting on this specific topic further). The problem begins within The Church.

The first problem with Xianity is that it holds nothing more sacred than Evangelism. It is thought that to be able to convert those godless heathens is the surest path to heaven like some kind of cosmic pyramid scam. Evangelism in theory is quite noble but in practice it's simply just the lack of being able to just mind yor own fucking buissness.

This is exactly what's going on here. The preachers have infiltrated the lunchroom to brainwash America's youth. Xianity is the world's most dangerous cult. Am I being overly dramatic? I don't think so, but if we can find the article that this came from we'll find out.

[Edited on 4/6/2004 by IamSquid]

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to />
die so i could watch, and then me die.






-ickgirl

 
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