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Author: Subject: Circumcision; fact, myth, opinions.

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  posted on 17/3/2003 at 06:54 PM
I just finished watching a episode of Law and Order where the defendant was on trial for killing a doctor who was about to practice a female circumcision ritual on his daughter. Time and time again I have seen the touching, fussy/floral interviews with Barbara Walters on the tragedy that women face in Africa due
to female circumcision.
Now from what I can tell everyone seems to think that female circumcision, even in it's lightest most sterile forms, is thought to be barbaric and violating. People tend to react in such a way that says to me "Female circumcision is wrong in every circumstance!" I couldn't agree more.
But why in a country would this seem so strange and barbaric (in a country that sees this as a very violating mutilation close to that of rape) as it has similar customs to males? Why did the United States circumcise 80% of it's baby boys in the 1980's and 60% in the 1990's if they feel so strongly about it towards girls?
Why is it extreme to circumcise a girl, but great to cut a boy? Doesn’t this violate the sexual rights of males?
I have a whole range of personal experiences and a library of knowledge to refer to on this subject. But I am not sure how to convey this information to people. I have a friend of mine that said “This is something people tend not to think about”. That thought personally disturbs me, as it is has to do with something that is so precious to a male; his sexuality and his sexual organs (believe it or not, to a guy they really matter.. see how they feel if you take them away).
What I want from you all is a discussion on what you think of male circumcision. For it, or against it and the logic behind that. Really, I want to know why? Hopefully we will be able to hear from all perspectives; young and old, male and female as you all make the decision to act on this matter: it is out of the hands of the infant to do so, sadly.

 

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  posted on 17/3/2003 at 07:12 PM
Well, I think the reasoning behind the outrage over the female circumcision issue, is that it was actually done in this country on women of European decent as well. It was one of the treatments for "hysteria" as they called it. What happens with female circumcision is that sometimes only the clitoris is removed, and sometimes the labia are removed as well. In women, this causes infections and painful urination (as our urethra is not nearly as long as men's are), and painful intercourse. The popular view at one point was that circumcising males meant that they would not have to worry about yeast infections and urinary tract infections near as much if there were no foreskin. However, you are right about it seeming to be barbaric and the choice is not the infant it's being done to. The good thing is that it's rather rare for there to be "mistakes" during male circumcision, and that males who grow up and become sexually active adults, do not experience pain generally from being circumcised, even though their foreskin has been removed. They also experience pleasurable orgasm. However, women who've had their clitoris removed, usually have some sort of discomfort or pain as a result during sex or manual stimulation, and they do not experience any type of clitoral orgasm as they don't have a clitoris. Unless they are able to have a vaginal orgasm, and many women who have a clitoris do not, then they are only serving as a recepticle for a penis during sex in many cases. The key point is that while some religions feel that male circumcision is required, and some feel that female circumcision is required. The majority of the underlying reasons for female circumcision is not cleanliness...it's to deliberately cause the woman not to "crave" sex...which is bizarre...but true. On the other hand, the majority of the underlying reasons for male circumcision is considered cleanliness and easier care of the genitals...or to "look" like daddy...it's not meant to stave off their sexual craving in the least. Well that's what all my researching on the subjects of circumcision has basically yielded in answers for my questions.

 

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  posted on 17/3/2003 at 07:32 PM
I'll get into the historical origins of male circumcision later (as it is very similar), but what I am curious about is what would you do to your child and why?

 

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  posted on 17/3/2003 at 11:23 PM
Personally, I would not have a child circumcised. This is because I feel that if they really want that when they are older, then they have that option, cuz once it's done...it's done.
I don't think it's right to cut on a child (especially without anesthetic)...if it's not actually necessary medically and take away that decision that they may resent you for later.

 

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  posted on 18/3/2003 at 07:00 AM
I'm alright with circumcision, being circumcised myself.
And I'm not sure that letting the decision fall to the child is a good thing. For one, he'll be old enough to fear it.
I mean, I like my penis circumcised. But if it wasn't, I would never get the operation because I'd hate to have someone with a knife down there. No matter how safe. Its a guy thing...

I don't know what I'd have done to my child... Probably circumcise him. Its healthier, so they say.


 

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  posted on 18/3/2003 at 07:36 AM
There is almost no way you could get me to approve circumcision. Okay, first off, you are cutting off a bit of the body. If you have evolved to have it, don't you thnk it would be useful to NOT cut it off? Nothing evolves without some purpose, and the outside of the body is much more prone to adaptation that the inner organs. if the human male did not need a foreskin it would have reduced in size until it had disappeared completely. There has been plenty of time to do this. Now that there are things such as pants made out of coarse materials, a foreskin is actually a protectant against the irritants of fabrics, and circumcised males are more likely to be irritated and form calluses as a result of friction.

The issue of cleanlines is interesting as well. You would be cleaner without a hand, and they are useful but not required. If it was publicised that removal of hands at a very young age without anesthetic was recommended for cleanliness, would you do that to your child?

Also, in the event of an abnormal penis, the foreskin is actually vital to penile reconstruction. With conditions such as hyposdadias (sp) the foreskin is used to repair the urethra and allow the penis to function normally. Without the forekin present the skin needs to be removed from the shaft and results in quite noticeable disfigurement.

 

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  posted on 18/3/2003 at 10:00 AM
"I mean, I like my penis circumcised. But if it wasn't, I would never get the operation because I'd hate to have someone with a knife down there. No matter how safe. Its a guy thing..."
Why would you want to cut the penis of a defenseless baby? If you think that you as an adult would fear that operation, which is far more severe when done as an infant, then why it that ok to do that to a baby? Let me explain the operation in detail as far as an infant goes. First an incision is made next to the frenulum. Then the foreskin is skinned from the glans or head of the penis. Yes, that’s right, skinned. The foreskin and the head of the penis are held together by a membrane, and aren’t meant to be separated. They are supposed to slowly separate overtime from infancy to in some cases early puberty (about age 10 or more). Next the incision continues around the glans, cutting under or on the corona, a large nerve ending area. After that is finished the frenulum is gouged out, and that is a very highly compacted area of nerves. All gone. This is usually preformed without anesthesia, because I guess they think babies can’t feel pain. Adult circumcision isn’t as bad due to the fact the glans has been protected for years by the foreskin, and there is no skinning of the head of the penis. However, the foreskin when cut off an adult and stretched out is not just a little skin, but 15 square inches of skin, about the size of a note card. It has twice the nerve endings and blood vessels of normal skin. This is not to make youor other adult males who had no say in this operation feel bad but to target this disturbing idea “I'm not sure that letting the decision fall to the child is a good thing. For one, he'll be old enough to fear it.” Why then would you want to subject anyone to that treatment? Is it only because they as infants can’t directly complain, or prevent it from happening themselves?
Circumcision should only be preformed on adults who request it as cosmetic surgery. Why only cosmetic? Because it is just cosmetic, but more like cutting your ears off for the looks.
“Its healthier, so they say [to circumcise].”
In what way? Foreskin makes a healthier penis. let me list the 12 KNOWN functions of foreskin.

1.to cover and bond with the synechia so as to permit the development of the mucosal surface of the glans and inner foreskin.
2. to protect the infant's glans from feces and ammonia in diapers.
3. to protect the glans penis from friction and abrasion thoughout life.
4. to keep the glans moisturized and soft with emollient oils.
5. to lubricate the glans.
6. to coat the glans with a waxy protective substance.
7. to provide sufficient skin to cover an erection by unfolding.
8. to provide an aid to masturbation and foreplay.
9. to serve as an aid to penetration.
10. to reduce friction and chafing during intercourse.
11. to serve as erogenous tissue because of its rich supply of erogenous receptors.
12. to contact and stimulate the G-spot of the female partner.

Sources: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/
http://www.noharmm.org

Starlight I know how you feel on the subject, but I have to approcach this idea you
brought up before “to look like daddy”. To me this couldn’t be a more bizarre idea. A male child will look like his father, this is obvious. Why do the genitals have to resemble the father as well? This makes my skin crawl. That excuse is like masochistic pedophilia in my opinion.
Oh well, more later. I’ll let that big chunk of information brew.

 

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  posted on 18/3/2003 at 06:22 PM
Speaking as a non-circumcised male I can safely say I have never had a yeast or urinary track infection. Nor any other male I have met. Those two types of infections are normaly found in femals. Thus why so many men consider them-selves lucky not having to deal with thoughs problems. As I understand male circumcision practices started some where in the middle ages; as a meathod of hygean, and to surpress sexual urges. Freaquently this was done in noble and royal houses. High ranking virgin women in those times wore chasity belts to protect thier virginity, untill the wedding night. By the way the History chanel has a show on the history of sex.

 

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  posted on 18/3/2003 at 07:58 PM
Personally I love my foreskin. If someone were to cut it off, I would rather them take the rest with. Honestly I can't see my penis without it. I'd rather be a smoothie if it were take from me.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 07:33 AM
The decision should be left to the person being circumcised.

Why? Since I think it's taking away a right from the child (well, adult when they get to that stage); that child did NOT choose. Circumcision should be okay as long as it's the adult choosing, not the parents forcing it onto him or her when he/she was only a baby.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 01:47 PM
You know, when I was about six, I was attacked and nearly killed by a foreskin...Just six mind you, the attack was sudden and brutal...and I was in the hospital for about three days with heavy lacerations and some internal bleeding, not to mention psychological trauma. Well, anyhow...after that day I have looked upon the foreskin as an enemy...something to be destroyed...
When I have a son, I'm going to take a band-saw to his little pecker

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 01:59 PM
I think the biggest difference between male and female circumcision is the fact that even if a male is circumcised, it is still possible for him to enjoy sex. Once a female is circumcised, sex hurts, birthing literally tears her apart, and it can be extremely difficult and painful to urinate.
And I still believe one of the main reasons males are circumcised is not for health issues, but religious ones.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 02:13 PM
80% of boys were circumcised in the 1980's. Is 80% of the population Jewish or Muslim? It isn't for religious reasons, In the United States, it's never been.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 02:24 PM
It's in Christianity, too. I have asked people why they would make that choice if not for Hygeine, and they replied with the fact that they were xian, and it's in the bible. It IS done for religious reasons. I'm not saying that is the only reason, just one that I think is more prevelant than people think.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 03:48 PM
Well this is a new christian ritual. I trust you that they are using that as an excuse. But is that a good one? Cut the baby's penis for Jesus? Stoning is also in the bible. Just because something is in a book, doesn't mean we have to act it out, especially on children's genitalia.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 04:14 PM
Besides... it's creepy.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 04:20 PM
Sticupus... if I had the choice, I would endure being circumcised as an infant a million times over rather than be circumcised once as an adult. Ignorance is bliss, and infants are blissfully ignorant.
Not that they don't feel pain, but they wouldn't fear the knife as it is coming.

Dolorosa, I feel your pain...

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 06:09 PM
I would most definately leave the choice up to my kid if I had one. The health issue I can only see from the point of the female, hang on let me explain before anyone get's weird ideas. The male forskin is nifty in terms of keeping a penis long accustomed to having said foreskin safe from external vectors of infection, but it's also a great place to store dead skin cells and sweat and pocket lint. So from the female point of view, it's nicer to have a penis that's less prone to contain alot of little infectants just waiting to be delivered to tender mucous membranes via internal injection. On the other hand that entire bias is based on my opinion of the majority of the populace of america as literally unwashed masses.

On my end, I am circumised and I kind of like it, I don't have anything to base my opinion on other that the state of being circumcised. Personaly, I wouldn't be that weirded out by letting a doctor go at me with a knife, but I've let a piercist go at me with a needle as well as a doctor go at me with a knife and an electrode, and I can still get it up after both escapades so I'm a little jaded to the subject.

All in all, I think the choice should be left to the male and knowing more about it (Thank Sticupus, That was both horrifying and informative) I would definately want to leave it to the child to decide later. the procedure as outlined sounds like the kind of thing that actually changes the way the penis developes and I have to wonder what I missed because of my circumcision.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 06:23 PM
It's in the Old Testament, book of Genesis. Which is part of the bible. Which xians read.

 

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  posted on 20/3/2003 at 08:05 PM
Merry_Widow: Yes yes, Abraham cut his penis with a shell as a sign of brotherhood to the Israelites (I think a unique hair style could have done the trick, but Abraham had a screw loose as well as many other biblical figures did). It has been a trend ever since, but now for different reasons. Stoning is in Leviticus, just a few books down. Is your t-shirt made with mixed fibers, poly-cotton blend for example? Well in Leviticus, that is an offense punishable by stoning.
And wasn't there something about abandonment of old Judaic law that Christians are supposed to recognize?
Maybe they haven't been reading too carefully, or they consider listening to sermons “reading”. I’ve seen that happen too much; they think it’s like books on tape.

Shade: here is where the delicate issue lies. How do I convince a crowd who couldn't make that decision not to take advantage of another incompetent and weaker crowd and make that decision for them? It is a strong stance that you are taking and I admire that you don't have self motivated biases in your way (would I expect anything less from Shade?). However speaking to the masses is another issue.
And for that dead skin comment, let me educate you (wow, I’m being cocky, but I have ‘one’ and know more about this than you do... I‘m just being honest, I‘m not trying to alpha male the Shade at all). That dead skin and sebaceous secretion buildup is a vital part of the penis. The head or glans of the penis doesn’t naturally have sebaceous glands. Only the specialized skin under the prepuce or foreskin has them. There are sebaceous glands there that are unlike any other in the body; sort of like breasts but much smaller. This keeps the penis head nourished with oils and moisture, sort of like the interaction between the inside of your mouth and your saliva glands. If you take that away, it dries out..... I’ll explain Karatinization later.
It also has another purpose; this secretion isn’t just a secretion. It's called smegma. If it gets a chance to every build up- it’s a waxy white substance that’s packed with anti-microbial agents (anti bacterial and anti viral stuff) that keep the penis CLEAN and STERILE, and safe from infection. Any buildup of body secretions can cause infection. That’s why we use q-tips on our ears for example. And I have never heard of any complaints of people wanting to cut off their ears to prevent having to deal with the task of using a q-tip. Besides, a little ear wax keeps the ear healthy and working well. We need it there, just like smegma on our penis. Smegma also is a big source for pheromones from the male; some of the most potent I might add. Oh and women have glands similar to smegma glands too if you haven’t noticed.
Also studies show that circumcised men, on average, do not pay much attention in the washing of their genitals as they really don’t have to. Thus circumcised men are “dirtier” than intact men (on average) due to that. A study done in the UK, where circumcision is preformed like in the United States, showed that boys simply never washed their genitals while showering. It is the unwashed masses, and I think it is DUE to circumcision. I take my time washing, and if it is because I have to, I consider that a blessing not a burden. Vaginas have the potential to be dirtier than an intact penis, because an intact penis doesn’t go through a process anywhere near that of menstruation. However, women are clean and I haven't heard any complaints of a stinky dirty vagina epidemic in the world. Everyone is clean and happy.
The lint getting into the penis under the foreskin, well that’s kind of hard to for reasons of simple physics. The foreskin wraps around the penis head and forms a pucker, like a sphincter at the end of the penis, preventing from anything from getting in unless it is intentional (intentional meaning retraction of the foreskin, or an erection that causes the foreskin to contract, and that only usually happens during masturbation or intercourse). This pucker effect is due to a little part of the foreskin called the “ridged band“; it’s a tough but flexible ring of tissue packed with nerves.
To reflect- Based on the logic stated before about lint getting into the penis- women shouldn’t fear lint getting into their vaginas via an intact penis, because they wouldn’t be able to stop lint from getting into their vaginas anyway. That simply doesn’t make sense. It’s not like a bellybutton.

Ironboots: Circumcision as an adult isn’t nearly as traumatizing, harmful, and destructive to the male organ as when one is circumcised as an infant (see above). The choice being made by an adult male, at age 18 to be circumcised (because I guess they have some issues about it that are beyond me) then he should have the right to do so: just as he can get a tummy tuck, a nose job, and everything pierced and tattooed that he wants.
And why fear the immediate pain as an adult? The long term effects of infant circumcision are far worse because they never end.

Once again: Foreskin isn’t just a piece of skin.

 

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