|
|
| Normal Rooms | | General | 4 users
AntiStaticCleaningWi, melinda_halliwell_tu, Mistress_SinisterLov, littlegothgirlthatco |
|
|
|
|
|
Currently no members online:)
You are an anonymous user. You can register for free by clicking here |
We have 34 guests online !
|
|
|
 |
 |
Forums
You are not logged in | | |
|
|
|
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 01:05 PM |
You know what stic, Iīm done with this and done with you. In one ear and
out the other, looking for an argument when it could be one of the
"discussions" that you so dearly yearn for in a peacefull society that you
have all the answers for.
"the way itīs always been" isnīt ignorant, itīs true. NEVER did I say I
agreed with it, but accepted it because I donīt suffer from the dilusions
that Iīm a world changer and that utopia is achieveable.
UTOPIA IS WHEN HUMANITY IS DEAD.
I donīt value human life? All I value is my superficial petty
consumeristic lifestyle?
Iīm going to say this one time and one time only:
donīt you ever tell me what my fucking values are and arenīt. donīt you
ever fucking tell me what thoughts and ideas are in my head. donīt you
ever fucking tell me that you know me and my fucking life. donīt you ever
fucking lump me in with your overgeneralised views of the world. donīt you
fucking judge me.
Pacifism is a fine idea, stic, nobody ever said it wasnīt. Nobody was
bashing on it. If questioning your ideals is enough to put your panties in
a wad then you have more serious problems on hand.
But like I said before, you get treated as you treat. Do unto others mr.
compassionate.
Perhaps this would have gone somewhere if youīd bothered to partake in a
discussion rather than just come in and spout rehtoric and not answer any
points brought up.
Tell me mr. benine entity of peace...are you a vegetarian? If youīre so
anti murder and anti consumeristic peace and love for all then youīd be
vegan. Every time you eat and use an animal product you waste a life. A
SENTIENT life...or do the only animals that matter have thumbs? Every time
you take a bit of flesh or body product, you support one of the grossest,
cruelest, brutal and morally corrupt consumeristic markets in the world.
(and note to comedian, Iīm not starting a vegan debate, so donīt get all
uppity, Iīm making a point)
Fucking done. Done done done. Not going to reply to this line of this
conversation any more. Getting nowhere, done done done.
if anyone else has anything enlightening to say about the original thread,
Iīd be happy to pick it up from there.
Any info on why or if the FBI knew and why the didnīt at least issue a
warning? ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
Sticupus
Fanatic   Posts: 254 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 01:14 PM |
| If you advocate or enact murder and war, you do not value human life.
Simple. ____________________
The OBOLISK is Divine.
|
| |
AloneSoul
Fanatic  Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 02:32 PM |
Heya Bettie, did you check out that link I posted a few times?
To cut it short, Agent ONeill was too much of a maverick and he stepped on
too many toes. He pissed off alot of people in the upper floors and
whenever Al Queda made a attack Africa was thought to be in Iran, the men
ONeill pissed off made SURE that he had a tough time working on the case.
They didnīt let him go to the places he needed to be nor would they let his
Agents work on the places they needed to be.
They screwed Agent ONeill, a man was a workaholic, who wanted to hunt down
Bin Laden. If he had more cooperation from the FBIīs higher ups, he may
have been able to unravel 9/11. *there was also ANOTHER insider who had
penetrated Al Queda and found evidence of 9/11 but he wasnīt taken
seriously either* The FBI did intercept phone calls from a Al Queda safe
house, stating that there was a plan for a "Hiroshima type event in the
next few months." The FBI had more information on 9/11 than youīd think but
they sat on their hands.
Oneal was forced into early retirement and he was moved to the WTC, chief
of security in August, 2001. He died in 9/11.
To everyone again, this is a show on PBS, if you can find on
your local listings WATCH IT. It brings our failures to work together in
light. You can also watch this show, in itīs entirety online, tomarrow!
Check it out. ____________________
 but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
|
| |
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 02:39 PM |
That is positively frightening.
Thousands dead and probably more to come because of agro posturing and
office style cock blocking. Wonderful.
Youīd think there would be independent committees to oversee organizations
like that and make sure that work is getting done that needs to be done.
Itīs scary. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
Monolycus
Fanatic  Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 03:48 PM |
| The Bush the Younger administration blocked every effort to establish an
independent investigation into the events of 9-11 on the grounds that it
would "provoke dissent". An "independent committee to oversee
organizations like that" would be a regulatory agency, Bettie. This
administration has decried the regulation of Wall Street, the meat and
agricultural industries, energy companies and the pharmaceutical companies
as stifling free trade. Rather than create or strengthen any independent
regulation, the Department of Homeland Security simply makes it more
difficult than ever for anyone to hold the FBI, CIA, NSA and the various
branches of US military intelligence accountable for their actions.
Honestly, am I the only person who has actually read the USAPATRIOT act...?
I know that not one single senator or representative who unanimously (save
one abstention) passed it into law did, so maybe I am hoping for too much
here. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
|
| |
AloneSoul
Fanatic Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 03:59 PM |
Homeland Security = False sense of security.
Iīm still pissed our government dropped the ball on something like this.
heh, I didnīt read the Patriot act...I should sometime though. ____________________
SRC="http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/ff6/images/characters/kefka.gi
f">
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
|
| |
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 04:02 PM |
I havenīt read anything like that. I get what I can from papers, the
internet, and the television, but I rarely have time to delve in deeper
into the actual "he did she did" government tidbits. I get what info I can
when I can, but honestly to someone who who doesnīt absorb reading material
very well (all hail dyslexia!) itīs extremely confusing. I get the jist of
it, tho, donīt get me wrong. I understand whatīs going on...the cliff
notes so to say, enough to make me angry. Thatīs what I have you guys for
*wink* keep this retard well informed *snicker*
I"m thinking of investing in a bottle of ginko biloba and hop in the
bathtub with some government reports! ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 5/10/2002 at 08:11 PM |
Alone: It is not the Patriot act, it is the USAPATRIOT act of 2001 (which
is short for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate
Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism act of 2001). Catchy as
that as, try searching for it by its legal name of Public Law
107-56-OCT.26, 2001. And I was not joking... not only is this the most
frightening piece of legislature ever passed in this country, it was passed
unanimously through the House and Senate (with one abstention) without a
single one of our representatives having read it. Embarrassingly, they
have all maintained that voting for bills that they have not actually read
is par for the course. And yes, you should read it. Every United States
citizen who still believes in democracy and civil liberties should read it.
Check your local library.
Bettie: I ran across it originally on the cover of the Friday, July 26th
issue of USA TODAY (of all places!) taking second place to a story about
whether some professional athlete did or did not wish to have his head
frozen. The story at that time was that a House of Representatives panel
voted to reopen the investigation of the 11 September terrorist attacks
over the dissent of Bush the Younger (he had fought against an independent
investigation previously and had closed the issue before it had come to a
congressional vote sometime around March 2002). Despite this news, Bush the
Younger has since that time closed the issue again on the grounds that it
"provokes dissent" in the unity of American resolve. Without a
congressionally appointed independent council to investigate these matters
(which is not a case of the fox guarding the hen-house but the foxīs close
friend and business partner guarding the hen-house) we can never discover
if there is more to be learned because Bush the Younger signed an executive
order on 11 November 2001 which has done away with the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA). What this points to (obviously) is that the
present administration feels very, very strongly that it violates national
security for the citizens to know more about the events of 11 September
2001 and the belief that the executive branch of this country can not do
its job if it is accountable to the people that elected it.
Now... the FOIA was done away with for "national security concerns", but
(as I have posted previously) it had been attacked by Dick Cheney and
Donald Rumsfeld in 1974 when they were working with the Ford administration
(Cheney and Rumsfeld took their case to the Supreme Court who ruled against
them). Not only that, but the essentials of the USAPATRIOT act of 2001
(which essentially gives the security forces of America a blank cheque to
violate any civil liberties they wish with no probable cause) was outlined
by Cheney, Ashcroft and Bush the Elder during the Clinton years and called
the Novus Pax Americana.
I agree that the "he said, she said" details can be very convoluted and
confusing, but some very definite patterns have emerged.
~Monolycus. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
|
| |
Comedian
Fanatic  Posts: 213 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 11:19 AM |
| Actually, Iīm bashing pacifism. ____________________
Make way for the bad guy!
|
| |
AloneSoul
Fanatic Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 11:24 AM |
USA PATRIOT act.
Iīm still reading threw some of this.
- Many people donīt really want to worry about the "fine print" of these
things, they just want to have some satisfaction that our government is
"taking action" to combat the threats of our time... They just want to "eat
cheeseburgers and play the lotto." (Quote from Seven) Lead a simple life.
Thatīs how they can slip something like this. Give it a nice name, a pretty
package and unless you take a bite, youīll never know itīs poisonous.
Whatīs starting to frighten me is "TITLE II--ENHANCED SURVEILLANCE
PROCEDURES: SEC. 202."
They already had adequate information to prevent terrorists attacks but
they didnt. ____________________
SRC="http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/ff6/images/characters/kefka.gi
f">
HREF="http://www.pathetic.org/library.php?i_memberid=2042">
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
|
| |
MorteAscendo
Member   Posts: 190 Registered: 6/5/2002 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 04:44 PM |
I just sat here for an hour reading all that i missed over the
weekend...and seriously i grew sick...sick at Sticīs comments...but thanks
to Alone, bette, comedian and others i felt alot better...i cant believe
that if I ever came to your home town in uniform that you would spit in my
face you sick fuck...
but anyway...
I think that the FBI had a good idea that something was going to
happen...remember..their technology is supposed 50 years in a future...
:razz: ____________________
"Roses are Red, Violets are Blue. I'm a schizophrenic, and so am I".
|
| |
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 06:39 PM |
No need for thanks. The military does a lot for people that will never
ever say thank you.
That technology doesnīt do shit if their brains arenīt "50 years on the
future" too. Which theyīre obviously not, as their heads are already
occupied being jammed in their asses.
I was aware of the dissoulution of the FOIA and the "civilian
surveilance"...recruiting workers that enter homes and work on telephone
lines and have access to privacy of ordinary people. Freaky shit, I donīt
like it, I have nothing to HIDE, mind you, but still NOT okay with me. Not
at all.
Patterns are emerging, obviously, and itīs disgusting. Disgusting that
they would LET this happen over pseudomacho posturing and rank calling.
Um, keeping open the terrorist attack files would "spark dissident"? I
think that act alone should spark dissident, and many many OTHER things.
Such as failing to do anything about it when they knew it was coming.
Their own shortcomings and sloppiness dealing with dangers. Their own
bullheadedness and dictator style subversive strangling of our right to
know what the hell is going on. I could go on....
Iīm going to play that tri state powerball lotto and buy a fucking island. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 07:03 PM |
This just in...
Stic is allowed to have whatever opinions he wants to have and calling him
names for having them is not going to win him over to your side. He isnīt
the only one here that thinks it does not make you a superhero just because
you do the job that you signed up to do (I wouldnīt spit in anyoneīs face,
but donīt think Iīm going to keep buying you drinks all night either).
Frankly, I think flipping burgers for a minimum wage that doesnīt pay the
bills is pretty damned heroic, and at least those guys arenīt breaking
their arms patting themselves on the back for getting up and going to work
every day.
Democracy is about having a voice, not about parroting back whatever the
majority just said. Representing an unpopular position takes a whole
different kind of bravery, Captain America. Differences of opinion keep The
US of A from being a fascist state. When youīre looking at the stars and
bars you slapped on the side of your pick-em-up truck, try to keep it in
mind that it represents people... and those people have all kinds of
different takes on things. The military is there to protect the citizens
of the US, not just the ones they happen to like or agree with. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
|
| |
AloneSoul
Fanatic Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 09:06 PM |
No need for thanks, heh, just tellīin em how I feel.
Flipping burgers...thatīs something I could NOT do...end up stabbing
someone by the end of the day.
Mort, Bettie and M, I agree. People are entitled to their opinions, it
makes this country great but people should learn to respect eachother more.
United we stand, you know the rest. heh.
I wanna make a point though Iīve noticed in this whole discussion.
This whole arugment was EXACTLY the thing which created the social
boundries which prevented people at the FBI from working together in the
common interest of public safty.
Interesting no? ____________________
SRC="http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/ff6/images/characters/kefka.gi
f">
HREF="http://www.pathetic.org/library.php?i_memberid=2042">
/>
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
|
| |
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 11:02 PM |
Uhm, who called who names?
Nobody ever said stic isnīt allowed to have opinions or different beliefs.
Nobody said that everyone in the military are automatic heros. Nobody ever
said that differing opinions arenīt welcome.
I am personally extremely angered by the arrogant and narrow scope with
which certain people were automatically pidgeonholed as being a "murderers"
for simply disagreeing and having a different opinion...which they (and I)
have every right to be angry over. I deeply resent being lumped in with a
violent group by anyone who doesnīt know the first thing about me. I have
that right too.
As for me, the fact that I have repeatedly stated that everyone is entitled
to their opinions, that Iīm not inclined to brainwash anyone or make them
see things my way, that I donīt want to see innocent people die any more
than the next person, that diplomatic is the favored way to go (even if it
is a tad bit unrealistic in my OPINION) has gone straight over several
heads...and Iīm called an advocate of murder. Which is bullshit. Theyīll
hear what they want to hear, it seems. SO why bother with a discussion if
nobody listens? Nobody has to agree, nobody has to "respect" others
stances, but there is a big difference between respect and being
respectful.
I believe to some extent this sort of thing IS what prevents government
agencies from doing business. Posturing, egomania, and selfimportance.
This is the last bit I have to say on the whole retarded deal. I would
like to get back to the discussion before the "other" thing was brought
back up. This is getting nowhere.
____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
AloneSoul
Fanatic Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
|
posted on 6/10/2002 at 11:18 PM |
Radical thinking is what tore apart team cooperation. Stepping on toes, all
that jazz, covered it before. One thing that really pisses me off is that
the people in the FBI...and one other person, *i cant spell correctly her
position, embasitor...* they werent even in the public eye of scrutiny
UNTIL the program I talked about so dearly showed on PBS.
I just cant believe it still, that horrible day could have been
prevented...but the way things are turning out, it makes me wonder abit,
did some higher powers actually want 9/11 to happen? I know, it sounds far
fetched but my mind is working on over drive right now... ____________________
SRC="http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/ff6/images/characters/kefka.gi
f">
HREF="http://www.pathetic.org/library.php?i_memberid=2042">
/>
/>
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
|
| |
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 7/10/2002 at 12:51 AM |
Probably not so much radical thinking as purposefully closed eyes in the
name of one upping the other guy.
And for your benifit: ambassador..wait...em? am...no...am...thatīs right
isnīt it? JEEZE! 
I found it very VERY coincidental that it happened in the first year of a
new (and not very respected/well thought of) president. I think it was a
test...a big fat horrid unfunny unfair test. A poke with a big big stick
to see if heīd dance, poke back, or lay down and die. With the 2K election
being a worldwide joke (the cubans offering to send in mediators to help us
sort it out....) it would, to me if I were a terrorist, PRIME time to
strike...when weīre all distracted, and when a seemingly befuddled fool
that nobody has any faith in gets PUT into office by a judge and not the
nationīs votes. Perhaps it was ignored by our own FBI for some purpose of
their own...I read too many dean koontz novels to ignore the prospect of a
shadow government ready to spring. Itīs usually the most unlikely (like a
massive, deadly, tragic attack on the american mainland...something thought
to be impossible until over a year ago) that comes up to bite you when
youīre back is turned.
*sigh* shadow governments, egomania, foolish leaders and angry people.
Like I said.
Calling miss cleo.
Getting my lotto numbers.
Buying an island. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 7/10/2002 at 09:18 AM |
Oooh... No internet access at home is pissing me off. Its so disappointing
to come here on monday and find that a kickass discussion here has budded,
blossomed, and reached a near conclusion already. Oh well...
Its still good for brain-food, I guess...
But I must side with the not-in-our-name people. Number one, what has
Saddam done to us? Sure, he invaded Kuwait, but we beat his ass back to
Bagdahd. Is he supporting terrorism? Is he making weapons of
mass-destruction? Who knows, really. Intelligence is sketchy at best, and
who knows what our government could be making up. Stretching the truth, at
the very least, is very likely. As for the weapons, who says heīs not
allowed to have them? Its his country. We have weapons of mass destruction.
Russia has īem. India and Pakistan have īem. China has īem. And Iīm sure a
whole bunch of other countries have them too. So whoīs to say Saddam canīt
have them? And if youīre going to say its in a treaty somewhere, what about
GWB and the Kyoto protocol? Thatīs a treaty weīre not following... What
about the ban on missile defense systems? The United States doesnīt play by
the rules, why should Saddam?
Which is another point in the argument against war: We are the most visible
country to the rest of the world. We set the example. If we go after Saddam
because he -might- be plotting against us, then that gives liscence to the
rest of the world to take up their own agendas as well. India and Pakistan
can go at eachother, since they -are- threatening eachother. You canīt just
go around beating people up just because they donīt like you. Because after
you kill them, there will be more people to replace them. And -they- wonīt
like you, because youīre a bully.
In my mind, Just Cause has not been established. And the reprocussions
could be greater than we anticipate. And as Bettie said earlier, this whole
thing reeks of politics. The elections for the Senate (or the house,
whatever) is coming up. Currently, the Democrats have the majority. They
were doing pretty good. Bush looks like a fool, Social Security is in the
dumps, a whole host of dirty business editorials in the news; people did
not like big business, and the Republicans that represent them. But then
Bush crying war and nobody is paying attention to Democrat-favorable issues
anymore. Bah on politics, I say. Darn you Machivelli...
I say all you should do is just remember. And wait. And when he makes it
plainly obvious that heīs a bad guy, -then- you can open your can of
red-white-and-blue whoop ass. Until then, Iīm a skeptic.
Iīd join Bettie on her island, but I donīt like mangos.
By the way, Morte, nice sig. ____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!
|
| |
bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 7/10/2002 at 10:41 AM |
I *think* they are going after saddam, holding him to such strict
regulations and scrutiny because he has, in the past, been an issue, and
has always sort of been there being a dick. I havenīt heard a flat out
"this is why we want to do this" from anybody on the news, in the papers,
or on the radio. Or perhaps Iīm not listening as closely because Iīm sick
to death of the round and round and round and he said she said yeah well
your momma crap thatīs been going on since we ever laid toes in the desert.
I donīt think a "premptive" attack is justified...especially since bush is
trying to do it without congress! AND without the UN! I actually heard
something really funny on The Daily Show with John Stewart.
"Nuclear weapons, anthrax...jeeze, whoīs this guy think he is? US?!"
There are some good people in high places that are outright protesting a
war with Iraq. I saw one of these on television this morning...scores of
people..some with the sentiment of NEVER going to war over anything, the
more moderate "think before you leap/probable cause" folks (which Iīm more
inclined towards them), and others who just want answers.
The tactic theyīre using on the american public is a sort of "hey look!
ELVIS!" and while we all turn and search for the king of rock and roll they
snag those few precious seconds or minutes to do what they REALLY wanna do. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
|
| |
Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
|
posted on 7/10/2002 at 01:49 PM |
Bettie: I wasnīt aiming that at anyone in particular (although it was
Morteīs "sick fuck" comment that stuck in my mind and prompted me to hop
back on the īputer and lay it out there)... I just wanted to send out a
quick ping about the unchecked "patriotism". I defended Sticīs position
because he seemed to be the furthest afield here so far, not because we are
in the same camp (I guess politics really DO make for some strange
bedfellows!). All I was really saying is that the "United We Stand" media
virus is dangerous to democracy. When we are all 100% unified about ANY
issue, we will have lost the premise of being a democratic people.
Iīve also got a little of that Bertolt Brecht going through my mind... the
country that has no heroes is not as bad off as the country that needs
them. Just trying to keep things running on a fairly even keel.
Alone: Iīm not sure why you would think it is "far fetched". This is the
country that brought you the Tuskeegee experiments, MK-ULTRA, the Bay of
Pigs, the highly orchestrated attacks (yes, thatīs right, I came out and
said it!) of Pearl Harbor and the USS Maine, the suppression of the
indigenous peoples, and many, many more. Ask yourself this: Why dissolve
the FOIA and suppress independent investigation of the 9/11 event if you
have nothing to hide?
Ironboots: Hey, hey now! Letīs watch the Niccolo Machiavelli bashing!
*wink* Actually, The Prince was written to be taken ironically (like
Swiftīs A Modest Proposal)... but it is also one that seems to be very
pertinent to current events. Kudos for the reference.
You are also right on the money about whether Hussein is building nukes.
Itīs funny how we say he is "definitely" up to no good, and that we
definitely have no knowledge of what he is up to in the same breath. We
spent forty years of Cold War with an adversary who did have nukes... so
far, only one nation who has developed those kinds of weapons have actually
used them. (Hmm. Looks like our white hats might need to go to the dry
cleaners).
I agree that this proposed war seems to be little more than a smokescreen
just in time for elections. Just sets a very nasty precedent.
~M. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
|
| |
|
|
|
