Domkitten
Fanatic Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/12/2006 at 07:42 AM |
So here, I have a question, possible more a statement, possibly more a I
should not drink and write sort of situation, but that is what you got on
your hands so deal with it.
Anyway, I recently had an announcement from a friend of mine saying that
she was pregnant. All kinds of congrats there, I have a great deal of
respect for people that have children. The thing is that she felt the need
or possibly the compulsion to make the statement that she was of course
excited and then "i'm keeping it, even though I'm totally pro-choice."
Now here is the thing. Why is it that women who are pro-choice always feel
compelled to restate that when they decide to have children. What kind of
fucked up society do we live in where it is not okay for women to support
the rights and decisions of others while making different and equally valid
decisions for themselves. Why can't a woman just have her baby and still be
pro-choice. Why does this bug me?
It just grates that in this day and age a happy mother to be has to defend
her choice to be a mother to be and being pro-choice. Having children
should not automatically invalidate a woman's right to be pro-abortion. In
the same way that having an abortions does not automatically qualify a
woman for th pro-choice club. These are decisions that are very personal
that are made regardless of our situation and why can't we make them and
not be judged for them.
Maybe that is what bugs me, the judgment. Or maybe it's the tequlia. If
this argument as any sort of flow feel free to comment. If not, we can let
it die and well, I'm fine with that.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/1/2007 at 10:30 PM |
That's pretty much my line... abortion in general terms is a pretty
repulsive concept to me... there is no doubt in my mind about my personal
stance... but... I also have no doubt at all in my mind that it is none of
my goddamned business what someone else wants to do or thinks of it... and
it is also not my place to judge whether someone is a "good" person or not
based on how they stand on this particular issue... just means we view
things differently, which is OK by me... ____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism" |
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Rogue
Member Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/1/2007 at 06:28 PM |
I always like how pro-life means
pro-take-your-life-if-you-work-in-a-womens-clinic-oh-sorry-you-dont-actuall
y-do-abortions-here? and
pro-kill-criminals-screw-due-process-the-dude-is-clearly-guilty-look-at-his
-do-rag! I'm personally anti-abortion but pro-choice, do what you want but
don't expect me to help with that unless it's seriously a life/death
emergency. ____________________ Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time. |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 15/12/2006 at 02:49 AM |
exactly, Dom... |
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Domkitten
Fanatic Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2006 at 08:06 PM |
In Merry Widow's example, that is the worst kind of selfishness. She should
not be forced to be an incubator for her mother or her boyfriends conciet.
It is not about her. She and her desires are less important then those of
two intensely selfish people that would force her to give up her life so
they can feel all good about themselves through the eyes of a child. It's
insanely selfish and in no way cute.
At the same time I stand by a previous statement I made. I used this when I
was working with teenagers in the states because I was not allowed to talk
to them directly about sex, however being that at the time I was closer to
their age then many of the adults in their lives they always wanted to talk
to me about sex. As I've said "if your not ready to go into a public
drugstore in the middle of the day and by condoms your not ready." This was
surprisingly effective advice for teenagers because it is simply so
practical and easy way to measure the real desire to commit sexual acts.
I'm all about prevention. Condoms, jellies, birth control, anal sex, and
masturbation have always been favorites of mine for preventing unwanted
children, and even while their are extreme cases like a god child, they do
not happen so often that I would tell be to give up on it. And further,
while there is always prevention, it comes back to the inherent truth that
if it is just not preventable then we should have the right to end it and
let that be our decision as well.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2006 at 07:41 PM |
I agree with you all, about all the ways unplanned pregnancies can occur
besides basic irresponsibility. I was, however, responding to Merry
Widow's post, and the example she cited... which is, of course, statutory
rape, but still, if teenagers want to have sex, they need to take
precautions just like anybody else...
There are as many ways to start a pregnancy as there are pregnancies -
still, I say, an ounce of prevention is often worth a pound of fetal
tissue... |
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Domkitten
Fanatic Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2006 at 05:00 PM |
As for children conceived under rape if the girl wants to end the pregnancy
that I think it is insanely cruel and self centered of the family to force
the child. I can't think of anything more wrong than forcing that really. I
was reading one of my favorite writers, Dan Savage and I'll quote him. This
is in regards to Mary Cheny's pregnancy but I think it is more then
appropriate here.
"But Mary Cheney's uterus belongs to Mary Cheney, Janice, and she can do
whatever the fuck she likes with it. She can have babies with it or keep
her car keys in it or fill it up with potting soil and plant tulips in it.
It's her fucking uterus, Janice, not yours. And if you keep inserting
yourself into it people are gonna think you're a dyke too, or Heather Poe
is going to show up on your doorstep and beat the holy living hell out of
you." http://citypages.com/databank/27/1358/article14969.asp
Dan Savage
Essentially, it's ours to do with as we will and other people should stay
out of it unless invited.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2006 at 04:17 PM |
Rhiannon is what we call a god child
Kester... my bestfriend growing up... had a vasectomy... and... she was on
bc... and they used condoms... protected sex still makes babies...
not all women know taht certain medicines can weaken bc either... and it is
not passed on by the medicl community... sooo ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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MystryssRavynDarque
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 648 Registered: 24/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2006 at 12:24 PM |
quote: Of course, I also think
the choice should have been made before unprotected sex was indulged in, .
Sometimes even the most protected sex can result in pregnancy. It's not
always unprotected sex that produces unwanted pregnancies.
What about girls who are rape victims whose family makes them keep the baby
because it is part of their belief structure to not have abortions? ____________________ "People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I don't
think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is the
experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell |
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Domkitten
Fanatic Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/12/2006 at 05:51 PM |
Choice is a difficult thing. We can all choose to do things that are
insanely self destructive or inherently important to who we are as people.
Choice in and of itself should not be judged. The problem lies in the
judgment for those choices we make and how we deal with them. The entire
pro-life movement is essentially based on making everyone feel guilty for
wanting to have a choice one way or another. Which is the most wrong, but I
suspect if they weren't out there making us feel guilty for choosing
someone else would be.
I agree with Schiz though, everyone should be able to choose and ready to
live with the consequences of those decisions, good or bad. ____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2006 at 04:23 PM |
That is a sad situation. But what bothers me is the fact that her parents
are pressuring her to keep the child. Because they have a legal right to
choose, and they are using that right selfishly.
However, if you took the parents out of the equation, and she were just
giving in because her boyfriend wants the child - well, that is her choice,
too. Her choice to give in to someone else's wishes. Yes, sad. Yes,
something that none of us think is right. But it is still her choice,
whether we like it or not.
But, if the tables were turned - the father would have no choice. Of
course, I also think the choice should have been made before unprotected
sex was indulged in, but still, at the very least, women should be very
thankful that they DO have, well, extended choice, and be sensitive to the
plight of the man who is at the mercy of their choice.
I speak from experience - you know... I once found myself with an unplanned
pregnancy, the blame for it lay squarely on both our shoulders - her father
really didn't want a child by me at the time - I chose to keep it - but I
honored his feelings and did not force him into a fathership role - and in
the end he stepped up to the plate and worked hard to be the best father he
knew how.
I guess I don't just believe in a woman's right to choose - I believe in
everyone's right to choose. Even if it's a choice I don't think is
right.
Of course, that also means I get to choose how I respond to other people's
choices, too... |
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Xaoswolf
Fanatic Posts: 463 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2006 at 10:05 AM |
well, first, she's not an adult and still answers to her parents. If she
wants the abortion so badly, she should go tocourt and free herself from
her parents, the aclu would probably be all over that one.
Second, her 21 year old boyfriend should nolonger be in the equation, as
her parents should have shot him long ago... ____________________ Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap.
Does that make me a bad person? |
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Merry_Widow
Fanatic Posts: 598 Registered: 24/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2006 at 09:14 AM |
quote: I mean, a woman can
choose whether or not she wishes to become a mother even after pregnancy
occurs, but once the woman is pregnant, the man really has no true say.
I agree with that for that most part Schiz, but I have seen a few cases
where the woman has been bullied into maintaining the pregnancy, and then
keeping the child that she never wanted, all because her SO wants it. I
know it's a complete exception and rare, but I'm seeing it happen right now
at work. A 16 year old is pregnant by her 21 year old boyfriend, and even
though she doesn't want to be a mom, both the boyfriend and her mother are
wanting that baby. And all her little friends think it's soooo cute. My
heart breaks a little when I see her.
____________________ Okay, dazzle me. |
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Xaoswolf
Fanatic Posts: 463 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/12/2006 at 11:22 AM |
I think that the pleasure is a side effect. Being creatures that have the
ability to reason and that are not entirely driven by instinct, we need
that extra incentive.
If it didn't feel good, and it made little creatures that threw up and
crapped all the time, we'd never do it, and we'd become extinct. ____________________ Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap.
Does that make me a bad person? |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/12/2006 at 11:06 AM |
Not entirely... we are one of 3 species on the planet (I say species, but
dolphins are a family of animals... but I think they all look alike... blue
and swimmy) that has sex for recreation... if it was JUST for us to
procreate... it wouldn't be such an exquisite thing... unfortunately...
stupid people cannot read the side effects on the label ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Xaoswolf
Fanatic Posts: 463 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/12/2006 at 08:18 AM |
If a woman doesn't want to be a mother, she can give the kid up for
adoption or have an abortion.
If a man doesn't want to be a father, he's the scum ofthe earth and you
take him to court so he pays child support...
The best solution isto simply not have sex, but appearantly people are too
stupid to understand that the act of putting the penis into a vagina and
shaking was designed to make babies. ____________________ Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap.
/>
Does that make me a bad person? |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/12/2006 at 06:00 PM |
The thought of the man's part in the whole abortion decision has always
made me think a little. I mean, a woman can choose whether or not she
wishes to become a mother even after pregnancy occurs, but once the woman
is pregnant, the man really has no true say. What if the man doesn't want
to be a father, but the woman wants to keep the baby? It hardly seems
fair.
A woman's right to choose? What about the men? Yes, it's my body, but
pregnancy only lasts nine months. It's being a parent that is truly
life-changing, and I don't think it's right that a woman can avoid it if
she wants when a man can't. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/12/2006 at 01:04 PM |
better...but not catchy enough... what about...
"It's not my business"
I mean... I suffered from testicular tortion when I was young... the upshot
of that is that they basically had to give me a vasectomy at age 10...
so... I won't even be connected to a decision like this... ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Starlight
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/12/2006 at 10:21 AM |
Feral, would this work?:
♂ Pro-make your own choice. ____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/12/2006 at 06:37 AM |
For the record...I am not pro choice... I am not pro life... I am pro "I am
a male so I will never have to make this decision, and I have no place
trying to decide what you can do with your shit, so I will stay the fuck
out of it." but that doesn't fit well on bumper stickers ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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