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Author: Subject: Cooler than You

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 31/1/2006 at 01:15 PM
I didn't say that the subjugation was evil, I said that the concept of evil was imposed upon incompatible values within the subjugated ethical system.

I don't agree that anything boredom related can be characterised in the terms you describe.
When an action is described as thoughtless, one does not say that the act itself was without thought since that would be nonsensical, but that it was thoughtlessly acted, I have never encountered such a use of boredom in the use of romance languages I have learnt. Similarly an ation could be performed through boredom and yet one would still be able to attribute a good or evil value. Far from binary, one can scale it from one to one hundred, or any other scale with as many arbitrary points in between absolutes (in as far as they exist), but one cannot scale it from one to one hundred and include 'G.' G may cause 5 to be pushed to 10, similarly 50 may have mitigated L to a mere K, but they are seperate entities.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 759
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 31/1/2006 at 04:29 PM
W- I am sorry i misread that part. that whole section of your post read, to me, as predicated on LOTS of assumptions, intrenched and only partically acknowledged assumptions at that, again to my eyes and i responded with alot of assumtions on my part.

IF two or more groups of people had a concept of "Good" and then one of those groups got subgugated by another, HOW does it follow that the subjugated group would develop the idea of evil? why not shame? why not envy? or, in this "good/evil" paradiem do those states of being, or motive forces come from somewhere else and not fall into that same line of good---evil?

Also, Humans exist in Time (meaning 4 dimensions), or at least relate to each other using the medium of time. Would not thier motive forces also have more than 2 points? if you use a point on the good---evil line and a point in time, that is only 3 dimensions. not the implied necessary 4 using the 4+ dimensional model of the universe that western culture uses these days. You cant use the human as the fourth point since the arguement is that good and evil are seperate and independant of humanity themselves.

There are at least 6 billion people on the planet. At least 1/3 (ok yes i agree, less than 1/3 does use this good evil thingy, but you dont argue that in the middle of the good/evil arguement, at least not after making a plea to pick one nit at a time) of those dont have or use the good-evil stick to measure actions or motives. Yet it is still a valid way to process life information.

Just to toss up another concept here... Is right action the same as good?
(giggle)

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires away.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 1/2/2006 at 12:16 PM
I don't think that the subjugated group would develop the idea of evil, as such, it would be overlaid by the subjugating group in order to create the shame etc that is the internal justification for ethical issues. If there is no normative ethical base then this internal value system is its only base, therefore if it does not exist it needs imposing. Over generations (as few as two or three, I would imagine, although it depends on the scale of the populations) it will become the only value system known to the group and thus their good/evil concepts will arise.
Step 1 - Two groups, group1 and group2, two ideas of good, good1 and good2, neutral concepts, and what shouldn't be done for expedient reasons, bad1 and bad2.
Step 2 - Group1 takes over group2 and needs its good1 to take precedent over good2. It is notable that all conquering groups attempt to impose their value systems upon others. Often, indeed, it is the reason for conquering (or at least has been since the Judaic religions became the most prevalent)
Step 3 - the 2 of good2 is discouraged, outlawed or otherwise designated 'evil' by group1 as are the bads, in order to impose this internal justification.
Step 4 - Generations of knowing the moral system designed above lead it to become unquestioned as the original reason for it becomes subsumed by mythology, routine and all of the other things that makes any ethical system stick.
This seems to make sense. There are, of course, assumptions, but each of these steps is derived from a real life model. The motives I give will have been given differently by group1 and group2, but there is certainly a pattern of using ethics in this way throughout history.

Human thoughts are beleived to be two dimensional at the moment. I agree that there are other motives, and motive has a part to play in the definition of good and evil in most value systems (at least all which I have studied), but it is not a part of the same spectrum. I do not thnk that good and evil are generally motivational forces in many cases. It is very rare that one would ever decide that 'I am going to be evil, now what shall I do?'

Right isn't the same as good. Right is a subjective, context based concept, whereas good is intended as an absolute, objective value, although we all know how often that is the case....

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.



And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 856
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/2/2006 at 05:44 AM
Gothicmormon is so cool he once completely sidelined an entire forum thread...

true story.


hehe.

 

____________________
In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King

 
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