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Author: Subject: cogito ergo sum

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  posted on 21/7/2004 at 11:58 PM
Descartes said "I think therefore I am..."

Squiddo said ""cogito ergo sum" is bullshit"

I am starting this one to discuss the basic philosophies of life... I believe cogito ergo sum is a good place to start...

What honestly sets us aside on the planet is this basic tenet... it is our awareness that allows us to be what we are... questioning the universe leads to a better existence..

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 12:58 AM
Questioning the universe may lead to a better existence, but that has very little to do with how we arrived on this planet in the first place. I can buy the idea that consciousness ("thinking") is a result of existence, but not that it's a requisite. In other words, consciousness is a result of, but not a cause of, existence. Backwards. I am, therefore I think. Sum, ergo cognito. Existence precedes essence. Existentialism, call it what you will.

As far as existentialism goes, my acceptance of it (so far) is limited to that phrase--existence precedes essence. I refuse to accept the pseudo-optimistic, I-can-do-anything bullshit that so often accompanies existentialism

[Edited on 7/22/2004 by Andree]

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 01:06 AM
Cogito ergo sum IS bullshit. Thinking is not being. Existence is existence. Afterall, knowlege is the art of not thinking.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to die so i could watch, and then me die.

-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 01:30 AM
BUT... one must acceept that existence is not necessarily living... my chair exists, but it does not live...

living is an active state...
Existing it jsut being there...

"Afterall, knowlege is the art of not thinking" - deep, but without backing... explanation makes a conversation flow... CItations, thought processes...

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 01:44 AM
In that case, I've met many people who are like chairs.

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 01:45 AM
which, I believe, is the essense of my point...

there are many out there that exist, but do not live...

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 02:05 AM
The chair is an extention of yor existence.

Do yoo have to think how to walk? Of course not, yoo know how to walk. If yoo had to think about it yoo wouldnt know how.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.




-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 02:14 AM
But by whose standards are these people not living? Many people are happy living by their own standards, but not necessarily by your standards or my standards or Squid's standards or anyone else's standards.

(aaahh, two-a.m. typos . . . )

[Edited on 7/22/2004 by Andree]

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 06:10 AM
ok...

Squiddo: WIthout a htreshhold of awareness, how do we knowthat the chair is an enxtension of me, as opposed to an extension of another.... the same can be said about ME that was saig about the chair.. As for your point about walking... having gone through the process of having to RElearn how to do it... Voulentarily Reflexive behavior (trained reflexes)is a secondary form of thought... where concentration is used to evolve the flesh to a point where it performs at will...

Andree: by the standards of the awakened versus the sleeping... an epiphany allows someone a glimpse into the nature of the universe... it changes your perceptions... that awakening sets you asidee from someone else... if someone can question their own existence, then they are aware of so much more than the average person...

 

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/>





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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 07:59 AM
by "i am" does he mean "i exist" or "i live"?

[Edited on 22/7/2004 by Zero]

 

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"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~ The Sandman, Dream Country

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 11:16 AM
1 Because yor sitting in it.

2 Yoo went through a scenario in which yor motor functions were changed. The skill yoo knew no longer functioned given yor new circumstances.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to />
die so i could watch, and then me die.






-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 11:18 AM
I have always felt... I am is n assertive, not a transitive... it would not be very philosophical to be transitive outside of a nihilist viewpoint

 

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/>
/>







Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 11:22 AM
Squiddo: I am sitting in it defines the cahir as part of my reality... but If I am part of someone else's existence, then the chair I sit in is thier chair... and I simply occupy it...

as for relearning... Martial arts is the same way... you learn something, then you forget that something.... and then you re learn it... just because it becomes automatic does not amke it any more or less an action of thought...

Andree: cogito... not cognito... Sum, ergo cognito is I exist therefor I am in disguise..

 

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/>

/>









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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 11:40 AM
Catches this... EXISTENTIALISM IS OPTIMISTIC???

have you read Kierkegaard and Nietzsche? the unniversally agreed founders of the movement in thought???

 

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/>


/>











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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 12:27 PM
Yeah Kiekagaard was pretty fucking far from optomistic. I personally dont consider Nietzeche to be an Existentialist but this is another argument.

I'm glad yoo brought up martial arts. The one fundamental to training with weapons is that every weapon is an extention of yor body. If yoo look at the fighting style of someone like Jackie Chan in which the entire room becomes his weapon. What I'm getting at is the entire Universe is the extention of the individual and the individual is the microcosm of the Universe. The Universe, by definition is infinity equals one. The universe can not exist without the individual any more than the individual can exist without the Universe. This is a bond which goes beyond thought.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
/>

die so i could watch, and then me die.








-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 12:35 PM
I agree, teh weapon becomes an extension of one's selfk, but your argument earlier implies that because of me it exists... I no more cause the sword I choose to purchase and practice with to exist than I do a tree across the world, or my couch. these thinks existed before I did, and as such, cannot be a result of me.

I do not feel that the universe is dependent on the individual, because scientific evidence exists to show the universe was in existence before the individual... causality seems to be in effect...

 

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/>


/>



/>













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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 01:03 PM
It was not my intention to imply the sword exists because yoo do. My statement was merely that the sword exists (and is probably not aware of it) and that yoo exist (and may or may not be aware of it).

As for yor second argument, the Universe did NOT exist before the individual did. Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, only transformed. The individual takes part in the Alpha and Omega of the Universe despite the fact that the individual is almost definatly unconscious of it. The individual is the product of the same creation as the Universe (not that there's really much difference between the two anyway).

This is universally accpted by almost everybody though under different names: Genesis, the Big Bang, Chaos, Entropy, Zimzum, etc.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else

to

/>


die so i could watch, and then me die.










-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 04:02 PM
My this forum has grown since last I saw it. Let's see..where to begin.

quote:
there are many out there that exist, but do not live...

Just so we're clear on terms here, what exactly do you mean by living? Do you mean biologically functioning, or do you mean living a certain kind of life? If so, what kind?

quote:
The chair is an extention of yor existence.

Squid, in high school I once duct taped a chair to myself, got up, and walked around with it. That was the only time I've ever considered a chair an extension of my existance. I can buy it with a weapon, because a weapon is more actively used towards a goal. But I don't know about a chair. There's a definate feel to something becoming an extension of yourself, and I usually don't get that feeling unless I consciously reach for it...sure, I could make the chair an extension of myself, but it's already doing it's job just fine.

quote:
As for yor second argument, the Universe did NOT exist before the individual did. Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, only transformed. The individual takes part in the Alpha and Omega of the Universe despite the fact that the individual is almost definatly unconscious of it. The individual is the product of the same creation as the Universe (not that there's really much difference between the two anyway).


I think I get what you're saying, Squid, but I'm not quite sure. Are you referring to some "collective I" that we all splinter off from?

 

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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 04:16 PM
no offense man... just because I am made from teh same attoms as stars...does not make me a star... I have, in my time, eaten a couple cows, several bugs, alligators, and racoons too... I am none of these things... I am more than a sum of its parts.

but you also talk about the uuniverse beginning and ending... then you cite energy cannot be created or destroyed... which is it... never ending or created?

I am going to go become some trisquits

 

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/>

/>



/>




/>















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  posted on 22/7/2004 at 05:58 PM
Squid, you say the universe did not exist before the individual. This statement jumps from philosophy to religion. Hence, we must now debate the existence of a supreme creator until we're blue in the face.

Feralucce--yes, I do believe existentialism can be optimistic (I said often, not always.) This type of optimism is seen in Sartre's writing, although I feel Sartre had a good balance of optimism and pessimism. The reasoning of the optimistic existentialist is this: I've arrived on this planet; now it is up to me to make a name for myself. Carpe diem. No one is accoutable for my life but me. I can be what I want to be, do what I want to do. I am free to decide who I want to be.

Sartre followed this mindset, but he also understood that this freedom brings responsibility, because our decisions affect not only us but also those around us. Freedom brings forlorness and despair as well, because what we are capable of is limited by both the extent of our will and physical limitations.

(I realized I added an "n" in "cogito" after I'd already edited a typo once and would've felt silly editing it a second time . . . forgive me.)

 
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