Andree
Member   Posts: 112 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 06:01 PM |
| Enh, I forgot to log in. That one up there is from me. ____________________
< / hate >
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Bane
Occasional Poster   Posts: 28 Registered: 14/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 06:04 PM |
uhm... guys.... the universe is not infinte...some scientists found out by
calculating that it's not expanding anymore, but starts to fall into it's
centre...
it's just fucking big...
uhm... how can man tell what the essence of existence is, if he's confined
to his useless senses? There's for sure more to the universe which we can't
concieve properly...
To us a chair seems to be just a normal chair...
but in another light spectrum a chair has an absolutely changed essence of
being...
in an IR spectrum a chair does not look the same as in normal sight... get
the point?
we can't perceive the many dimensional layers of the universe...
as far as i blieve, there is no stuff like a "collective I" because that
would tear apart the fabric of the universe...
because if my clones in 100000000000000000 parallel dimensions would be
connected via superstrings or stuff, and one would manage to bridge the gap
of the universes(which is to assume, because there are an infinite number
of multiverses), wouldn't the
paradox erase the 2 involved personas, and because these are interconnected
with the others, wouldn't that erase the whole "me" from the space/time
line?
Would this paradox not annihilate mankind itself?
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Alugarde
Member  Posts: 185 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 06:45 PM |
| By "collective I" I wasn't referring to clones or multiverses or any of
that. That was a poor choice of words on my part. What I was referring to
was a concept wherein each person's essence is a shard of one larger
essence. A divine spark. ____________________
l33t is the bastard cousin of contractions.
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Bane
Occasional Poster Posts: 28 Registered: 14/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 07:13 PM |
any references on that?
You mean the universe is just one being of whatever possible conscience?
Might be...
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 07:27 PM |
Bane: citations please... where have you found your reference that it
stopped expanding... according to all photos from the hubble... red shift
everywhere...
ok... in the ir spectrum (400 nanometer passthrogh filter...) a chair still
looks like a chair... but I see your point... you are referring to
relativism... perspective is everything...
as for your other statemetns, you are covering quantum mechanics... in that
case, we must take into account quantum energy states... I.e. for any
change there is a specific energy state... the electrtons in an atom cannot
exists rfeely but are locked into certain orbital levels, (hence the energy
state) the atom will no accept energy unnless it is enough to make the
jump. If it reuires 24 kilojoules to change the state, then ONLY 24kj will
be accepted, all other energy is ignored unless it can reach the next
state. Universal field theory states that all items (living beings
included) have a wavelength and as such are effected by the quantum energy
states as everything else... the universe is big, but it is still a closed
system (how big is it? it is one universe large) abnd subject to the same
quantum rules as all else....
THEREFORE, there is no infinite uuniverses... there are parrallels, but the
are defined by specific energy states... what I ate for breakfast, for
instance is not a point of divergence... but a significant enough change at
a decision point can change the quantum energy state causing
divergencee...
NOW... that aside... quantum mechanics and philosophy can go hand in
hand... but this is philosophy, not philotic theory...
____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 07:30 PM |
Let us assume... that squid is right... what defines reality?
There is a school of thought (consensual reality) that the mandate of the
amsses (what is truly believed) defines the universe... I.E. while magic
and dragons were truly believed in by the strong majority, they truly
existed... as sicence progressed, ti anihilated the belief, relagating them
away... ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Kender
Occasional Poster  Posts: 26 Registered: 3/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 09:51 PM |
Whenever i think about existence and what it means or doesn't mean, i'm
always reminded of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. I realize, that it is
largely a mathematical theory, but it is still applicable to any subject.
Especially philosophy. It states, as i'm sure many of you know, that:
1. It is impossible to establish internal logical consistency...unless one
adopts principles of reasoning so complex that their internal consistency
is as open to doubt as that of the systems themselves.
2. Any system is essentially incomplete. In other words, given any
consistent set of axiom, there true statements that cannot be derived from
the set.
For example, Squid says that "Existence is existence." But he cannot prove
that using his mind simply because his mind can only perseive and conceive
based on how his mind works. Were it possible to infact perceive all of
existence in every imaginable way, then he would be almost be
correct. I say "almost" because, with all of these new ways of perception
that IamSquid just aquired comes the exact same problem of the limitations
of those perceptions. It just goes on and on and on. For any system,
there will be times when a problem arises that cannot be solved using that
system and it's rules. You have to develop a new system with new rules to
apply to the first system, and then you just get the same problem. RaWr,
it's frustrating just trying to explain it.
Anyway, the point that i'm trying to make is: Whether it be "I
think therefore i am" or just "I am and I also happen to think", it doesn't
matter. Either school of thought could be just as right as the other, but
they are both flawed by the human mind. There are going to be problems
with both of them, as there are problems with anything. To prove either
you'd have to be outside of the system in which each exists.
P.S. I wasn't just picking on IamSquid. I see the valid points of both
arguments and have a hard time choosing a favorite. "Existence is
existence" was just the easiest one for me to pick out and go with of all
the posts. Also, I merely posted all of this shit to present another side
of the view. Just something that I try to wrap my mind around as much as
possible for the exercise. I actually happen to agree with "Sum, ergo
cognito, or: I exist therefor I am in disguise", and i'm going to stick
with that for a while  ____________________
Fuck the Rest of You.
-Machine Fucking Head
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 10:02 PM |
cogito cogito ergo cogito sum
I think I think, therefore, I think I exist ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Alugarde
Member Posts: 185 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 10:06 PM |
Kender: I see your point, but it always bothers me a bit when someone
argues something like that. It sounds too much to my like an excuse not to
even try. Oh, don't worry about philisophy because it's flawed and you can
never get it right. Oh, don't worry about math because it's flawed and you
can never get it right. Oh, don't worry about technology, because it's
flawed and you can never get it right. Oh, don't worry about humanity,
because it's flawed and you can never get it right. Oh, don't worry about
anything, because everything is flawed and you can never get anything
right.
Well, fuck that. I like a challenge. ____________________
l33t is the bastard cousin of contractions.
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Andree
Member Posts: 112 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 10:12 PM |
| What defines reality, eh? If reality is defined by consciousness, and
consciousness comes from existence, we could really be asking where
existence comes from. ____________________
< / hate >
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Kender
Occasional Poster Posts: 26 Registered: 3/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 10:24 PM |
I'm sorry, Alugarde, i probably didn't explain myself too well. I
apologize for that to everyone on this board and for the fact that you'll
just have to get used to it or ignore, me. Either one is good for me.
I personally don't take Godel's Theorem as an excuse to not even try. I
take as a way of thinking that forces me to think in new ways. To me,
that's what life is all about. I know that in every subject there is no
way possible for me to understand everything about it, but that's not going
to stop me from trying. With the thought of G.I.T. in mind, i will always
try to get as close to understanding something as is possible for me. Or,
"Fuck that, i like a challenge", as you say. Its like you took the words
right out of my mouth 
What I was saying was: Don't think inside the set boundries of certain
philosophies or any philosophy for that matter. I was just trying to
encourage thinking "outside of the box" as much as possible. Looking back,
i realize that I am probably preaching to the choir, and hence will do my
best to keep my mouth shut at such times from now on. ____________________
Fuck the Rest of You.
-Machine Fucking Head
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IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 11:25 PM |
Feral: I really didnt want to go here but "Every man and every woman is a
star." Anyway, I may not have made this very clear in my statements but
the "beginning" of the Universe was a transformation. If yoo compared the
examples I sited they all share a common thread: Unity dividing and
manifesting as the Universe.
Andree: The Big Bang theory is in accord with my above statement, that may
not be philosophy but it is not religion. ____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 05:53 AM |
| squiddo:...here is a problem with your theroy... black holes,
singularities... produce spontaneously produce energy and matter outside of
the event horizon... more is producecd than entropy is increased...
meaning, the balance is not correct... the system is NOT closed... ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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BlueLinn
Fanatic   Posts: 246 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 08:44 AM |
“I think Therefore I am” Beautiful quote, but merely that. Consciousness of
self does come after existence. (As so eloquently stated by Andree, yet I
expand) Take for example, as a child. Are you aware while you are a
molecule? Are you aware while you are in the womb? Have you yet developed a
cognitive thought process?
It may perhaps merely emphasize that you know who and what you are as a
being when you are able to think, but that does not keep you from existing
in truth unless it is merely out of your own mind and experiences which you
do things. Such as, I see, therefore it must be true.
Feral, living does not necessarily need to be an active state, it could
merely be existence. However you do make a good point, a rock exists but
does it live? You have truly awakened an age-old question such as the
chicken or the egg… though with the proof of dinosaurs it must be the egg
as the process of evolution goes. Therefore, there must be an answer to any
question.
While, further down the line Feral states…
“by the standards of the awakened versus the sleeping... an
epiphany allows someone a glimpse into the nature of the universe... it
changes your perceptions... that awakening sets you asidee from someone
else...” This also gets into the perception of other living things. If you
realize someone is living, or for that matter if you don’t realize someone
is living, then how can we truly say that our perceptions are not true? If
it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it must be a
duck. But then again… what if a rock were aware of itself? What if
something we never even realized was there was aware of itself and we
perceived it as lifeless. Yet again the circle expands to encompass the
perceptions of others. Who may say….. “I think therefore you don’t
exist”
And unfortunately, I hate to be reminded of it but squiddo… you reminded
me of the matrix damned you…
Yet, going along the lines of an extension of ones’ self, once upon a
time I heard tell of monks being able to cast their energy as a weapon, or
as a solid force. What does this say of the extension of ones’ self, not of
the physical but of the mental.
Where books, internet, media etc… could all, also be at least partial
extensions of the mind of the mental capacity to reach for another
cognitive being to share emotions, thoughts, ideas.
Though as for ”the sword exists because yoo do. My statement was merely
that the sword exists (and is probably not aware of it) and that yoo exist
(and may or may not be aware of it).”
True, the sword was made by an individual, not you everything is an effect
of another event. The sword was made because a blacksmith took up the
hammer. The blacksmith came into existence because his mom fucked his dad.
Etc…. until the universe was born.. yet no one knows how it occurred
because we were not conscious in order to observe and understand. Therefore
because we don’t know how it came to be it is a mystery… to us,,, but that
does not mean that it does not exist because we do not know how or whether
or not we choose to believe there is a universe or a time, or a place we
have never seen… It merely is.
As for the whole universal spirit thing… It is another question.. if you
are not conscious of it how can you say for certain it exists… then
again,,, it could merely exist without you knowing and memory could just
not hold that much information over that period of time. As for physical
standards we are merely small containment devices for organs and our brains
do not, and could not hold the memory of the entire universe at least not
without putting it into recessive storage in the memory.
And Bane… if the universe is not infinite,, then what is beyond that…
nothing? A wall? Is there something beyond that.. mere calculations only
hypothesize the end of the universe… yet does it exist?.. could we as human
beings, even envelope the thought of a never ending space, where it goes on
and on forever… and is forever really all that long?
And with Feral’s leap into quantum mechanics it is so reminiscent of
photonics I cannot help but add on… The same as with IR it would also
appear different in a picture or a hologram. A hologram can appear so real
that it seems there is another being there… or another chair if you will.
Where the image appears as though it is projected out into space.
Same with the energy fields.. there are different levels of energy in
the active material of a laser. For a simple example there are two mirrors
and the atoms of the active material. The atoms bounce from one to the
other of the two mirrors when electricity is added into the equation, by
this the atoms exchange electrons until they are bumped up to a higher
level such as from E1 to E4. When this occurs, or when the required level
is reached with the appropriate population of atoms then lasing can occur.
There is always the transfer of energy, nothing is “Truly” locked into
state. Such as with Ice and water. The molecules in Ice move slower then
the ones in water yet that does not keep them from existing or transferring
energy. The ice could melt and would then ineffably be turned to water
where the molecules could move more freely.
Thank you for something interesting, you have re-awakened my belief
that humanity is not all stupid lack-witted slack jaws….
“ Beneath whose looks did my reviving soul
Riper in truth and virtuous daring grow?
Whose eyes have I gazed fondly on,
And loved mankind the more?” Percy Bysshe Shelly
If you can tell me which poem it was… I will love you forever.
____________________
When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 09:00 AM |
Ok... now what was your point linn? I mean... you have made some great
points... but we seem to ber misisng the conclusory statement...
[Edited on 7/23/2004 by feralucce] ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
/>
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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BlueLinn
Fanatic Posts: 246 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 09:14 AM |
| the conclusion is that existance comes before thought... at least in my
mind. ____________________
When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?
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IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 09:48 AM |
Existence IS existence. Existence cannot be non-existence. Existence is
because existence is. Existence cannot not exist because otehrwise nothing
would exist. Existence is, existence has to be, because nonexistence
cannot be.
and Feral: I realize it's been a long time since I've read-up on black
hole theory but I seem to recall that the idea was in a singularity, most
of the laws of physics break down but matter and energy remain matter and
energy. Black holes give off a certain amount of energy by nature of the
fact that their pull redirects things that would otherwise be somewhere
else up to the event horizon and also that they swollow up matter (and most
energy as well) but either way neither matter nor energy is created or
destroyed. ____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 10:53 AM |
hawking radiation is improportional to the entropy level... I.E. the
amount of energy being released exceeds the conversion rate and matter
retention... hence the quandry...
Squiddo: we understand your point... please evolve the convertsation...
stating the same thing over and over is not moving it along...
ALSO... do some research... in fission, when you destroy an atom... there
is some missing energy... all si not equal... changing the quantum state...
____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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BlueLinn
Fanatic Posts: 246 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 11:46 AM |
| I don't remember studying fission.... but I looked up Fusion once, where
they were combining 2 cells with .. I do believe it was essentially a dead
virus in order to create one larger symbiotic cell with 2 nucleii.... ____________________
When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?
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IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 23/7/2004 at 12:12 PM |
| Since when? Until just now, I have never heard of any exceptions to the
law of conservation of matter/energy. ____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
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die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl
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