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Author: Subject: wicca, paganism, and other nonsense

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  posted on 16/7/2004 at 11:00 AM
As posted in another forum...

I'll tell you what the problem with modern wicca is... they, like another common religion, preach tolerance... but tend to be exclusionary and as dismissive about other modes of magickal and spiritual thought as the christian church is about all alternative religions... Not to mention overly defensive and never truly certain of their own beliefs...

Many wiccans will mix and match, pulling from one religion and another while leaving most of it behind. Desecrating a sacred belief to cobble together your own religion while taking sacred names and phrases for their own is akin to blashphemy.... there is a reason for a division between wicca and pagan... I have seen people following Athena and Loki... but dimissing Eris... and if you don't understand the irony and disgust of that sentence... you need to do some research...

Next, wicca preaches "do what thou wilt, an it harm none..." that means don't hurt ANY LIVING THING... it is impossible to do that... even a vegetarian must destroy life to survive... Also a grgeat many wiccans smoke, thereby huhrting the environment, those around them and themselves... just a simple example of why most people don;t like it...

You average wiccan is so sure of their standpoint that they close off thier mind to the point where they are unable to actually hold a conversation without looking down on anyone who believes differntly... and that kind of attitude is what started the fuckin burnings in the first place...

Lastly... wicca tends to be the college trendy thing to do... simply put... like a LTG, they are not truly commited and are unable to convince themselves, let alone those around them... Read the works of silver raven wolf and you will see my point...

 

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  posted on 16/7/2004 at 11:36 AM
Feral, this should get interesting. Thank you.

First off, i have no problem with people who follow the religion of their heart, whatever it is. But I'll tell you what, of all religions easily the two most pushy, stuck up, stuck on themselves, idiot, closeminded, overblown, and most pretentious are xianity in all it's glorious "fundie" forms, and "paganism". Yes, I've known people who follow wicca or some other "pagan" religion and they weren't this way (including a couple of close friends). I am speaking GENERALLY, as in my experiences it is a GENERAL rule, with exceptions, of course.

I think at the heart of my problem with it is that for some reason unknown to me (maybe I put out a smell they recognize or some shit) they seem to think I'm "one of them". I have total strangers just start talking to me about some wickywonka whatever meeting they had last night, or some holiday I dont' care about or know about, like I care or want to care or want to know about their religious life. I had some 40 year old lady buying her daughter a pentacle necklace, and she went on and on about how it has to be descreet because she's in middle school and "YOU know how they can be, they don't understand US they're so IGNORANT and BIGOTED those xians" and blah blah fucking BLAH. I had another girl do the same thing, "I like how you guys cary pentacles because nobody else DARES to because nobody understands US (ie: her and uh...me..sure)". It was all I could do to just sell them their crap and walk away. Which I do most of the time, just smile and nod and walk away. I don't want to even get that person STARTED cuz I'll never hear the end of it.

I've had pagans and wiccans shove their beliefs down my throat, got the same reaction out of them that i do hardcore xians when I get so fed up or pissed off that I tell them I'm a satanist, and once when I offered a painting for a raffle prize at Sweet Spirit Candles in Renton to help support the food bank (which my husband and I were regular customers at and had often held food drives at work to fill their homeless cupboard by the door) this woman, this ultimate peace and love judge not lest tho be judged wiccan woman looks at me and says "Oh...well, that would be nice, but it's not a painting of bodies haning from trees, right?" I could have ripped that pentacle from her fat fucking neck and shoved it up her tyedied asshole right there.

I know there are gong to be be people now thinking "Not all of us are like that" and well, hating my guts and thinking of firing back and getting on my nerves. Go ahead, but before you make a jackass of yourself, see the top of this post and think "am I going to prove myself the excpetion or the rule?" Even if you are the exception, i won't be mad if you yell. I'm kind of hoping you will, because it'll lend a little life back into things once again.

 

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Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

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  posted on 16/7/2004 at 11:46 AM
bettie, chillen*winks*... I am willing to bet that those taht shove actually claim to follow the rede... makin them wiccan, not pagan... but I could be wrong

 

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  posted on 16/7/2004 at 01:48 PM
I have always referred to Wicca as the training wheels of spirituality. I think it's actually a good thing, and I'm all for wicca - but I still get them lashing out at me for my "condescending attitude" - or for "belittling their beliefs" or some crap. I don't look down on wicca any more than I look down on training wheels on a bike. It's a necessary part of some people's development and should be treated as such.

The difference between training wheels and wicca is that when there's training wheels on your bike - you know it. You are under no illusion that you are riding the bike on your own. You know exactly why those wheels are on there, and you know you'd fall down if there were no wheels.

With wicca, people don't notice that they are using it as a crutch between organized religion and finding their own spirituality. Organized religion is for people who don't do well with metaphor (and therefore won't get the full meaning of this post), and wicca helps them associate symbolism with actions in a way that's acceptable to their religious socialization. This is a good thing - but it puts them in the position of the kid on the bike with the training wheels, and this wounds their ego. They are just protecting their ego when they lash back by yelling "you don't even HAVE a bike".

Just smile at them, pat them on the head, and get in your car and drive away.

 

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So Sayeth Me

 

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  posted on 16/7/2004 at 03:19 PM
I started studying Wicca maybe 3 years ago, partly to get some experience in something other than Christianity, and partly to better understand my worst enemy, who prides herself on being a 3rd generation witch. I was very attracted to it at first. But soon I got kind of sick of it. I mean, it has almost as many arbitrary rules as Chrisitianity, and takes just as much blind faith. I came to realize that I really don't want to be part of any religion, although I do believe that the supernatural exists. I just don't want anyone else to try to spell it out for me.

I don't feel that I need a pentacle to protect me, any more than I feel I need to pray to God for angelic protection. If I need protection, I lock the door, put on my seat-belt, or whatever practical form of self-preservation fits the occasion, and then I put myself in a safe place mentally. If I have any sort of amulet or ritual, it's something I came across myself, and its power lies more in the fact that it instantly puts me in that protected mode, rather than being in itself protective. If I lose that object, I don't lose any degree of protection.

The problem with any organized religion, be it Wicca or Christianity, is that it tends to lay down what people should be discovering for themselves. How many witches depend on a pentacle just because they've been told it will protect them? How much more special would it be for them to discover their very own personal "protective" object? And how many Christians panic, because they realize that they've driven a few miles without saying the proper prayer for safe travel? I've seen it happen and it's sad. Not only do these people all end up nearly carbon copies of each other, but they also lose the security of knowing that their power doesn't lie in a properly sactioned object or set of words.

Now, I know there are certainly both witches and Christians who have got that all figured out, but that's not the point. The thing is, these people would be equally powerful without their religion's help. They just choose that religion because they like it. Or it's what they're used to. But far too many people hand over their own power to a set of rules and regulations.

And it is also true that Wiccans can be as annoyingly stuck on their religion as any fanatical Christian. Yes, you generally avoid the proselytizing, which is nice in a way, but then again you have to deal with the whole "you aren't good enough to be one of us anyway" deal. At least Christians are humble enough to see any human as a candidate for their religion. If you listened to some Wiccans, you would think that they were somehow an entirely different breed, and born that way, and you aren't, so you'll never be a witch, and powerful like them. Again, not all Wiccans are like that, of course, just as all Christians are not judgemental fire-and-brimstone bastards, but enough of them are to make me wary when I see that pointy little pentacle hanging around some girl's neck.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

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  posted on 16/7/2004 at 03:27 PM
Very good devin, and like I said I don't have a problem with the religion itself, nor the idea of it, nor people who subscribe to that belief system.....it is, in fact, a HUGE problem with "training wheel" people, because in my experience they're GODDAMNED PUSHY and for some reason they fixate towards ME.

And feral, i have no idea what "path" they're on, I don't even ask cuz well...I don't care. I get BOTH "pagan" and "Wiccan" shovings.

Oh, and I worked with two once, one didn't bother me, she didn't talk about it incessantly like it made her special or cool, but the other one....*shudder* She wouldn't shut up about it, her holidays, her persecution, her stupid meetings, until finally I yelled "SHUT UP! I WORSHIP THE GODDAMNED DEVIL I DON"T CARE!". This was after having to listen to her for MONTHS and the final straw was at our store's "holiday" party, where she gave me a funny look and asked why I had an xmas tree up, why I was watching something on jesus on discovery channel, and then walked around saying "wow the atmosphere is so clean nobody has died here."

Maybe I should sneak over to her apartment and unscrew her training wheels with a hammer.

Oh, and schitz, I totally hear you on that "generational" bullshit. I always wanted to track down someone's grandma or mother and be like "excuse me, are you a witch like your daughter/grandaughter says?" and see if their line goes into history or up their butts.

[Edited on 7/16/2004 by bettie_x]

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

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  posted on 18/7/2004 at 02:49 AM
i am a third generation asshole...

 

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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 18/7/2004 at 03:21 AM
I'm a fourth generation cultie, but you don't hear me claiming that makes me any better!

Funny thing is, this girl IS a 3rd generation witch. I know her mother well, and I've met her grandmother. Funnier thing is - her mother, although I like her a lot, is a raging alcoholic and maneater and not very in touch with reality, and her grandmother wants nothing to do with either of them, and has taken a liking to me and my fiance. Go figure.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

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  posted on 18/7/2004 at 06:10 AM
Shiz, i think you are one letter off.... I think that letter is "B". Try it on the front of "itch" and i think it will make all three of those degranged women make more sense.

 

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  posted on 18/7/2004 at 06:21 AM
Callei, I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the />
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of

girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

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Registered: 23/9/2002
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  posted on 18/7/2004 at 07:21 PM
Generally I have no more beef with the wiccan/pagan/alternative religion crowd than I do with your general religious crowd. Most people, that is, viewing religion as a private matter and only making it public one to correct the horribly stupid.

I think it would be fair to say that a great deal has been learned from both bettie and Shciz during long diatribes and tedious months spent correcting the stupid. However, the stupid still exist.

As Feral pointed out in his initial post, many of the teenagers who take up wicca/witchcraft/paganism/alternative religion, and unfortunately many adults as well, never seem to both taking any time to get their facts, or their stories straight. Much like fundamentalist Christians, the assume that their belief is correct because they believe it, and cannot wait to spout off how much “witchy” they are whenever possible.

Of course, you can’t help but to occasionally laugh at them, because they are pretty damn funny. I especially love the ones who will go on about: “Well, I’m a seventh level witch, and next month I’ll be working towards my ascension to the next plain of existence when I’ll learn to transform mysell…….” Oh, I’m sorry was I laughing to loud for you to continue?

Generational’s, of course, are their own level of fun, and then you have the real crazies that will go on about how good, or evil ever person they meet is. I once had an acquaintance who loved going on about how a women she met was really a black witch, but of course the woman in question didn’t know about it, however said acquaintance could tell that she was subconsciously trying to put a spell on her…. She would go on like that for hours.

A particular form that really tends to irritate me, as I have point out in other places, is the neo-pagan who makes every effort to subtly pronounce their choice of religion at any possible opportunity. Generally this involves twisting and destroying blasphemies to suit ones cause. My current favorite is “shut the hells up!” which sounded so stupid, forced, and contrived when I read it that I could not contain my rage. If your going to invoke the various hells at your disposal in an invective than at least try to be original about it.

Would it kill one to say “I’ll fill my mouth with pitch from the seven nether hells before speaking again!” or perhaps “By the demons in all the hells I shall speak no more!” Juice it up a little if you absolutely most pluralize. The same for invoking gods, and goddesses. I mean, why say “oh my goddess” when you can say something more ear catching and original like “by the cunt of the sweet merry mother goddess!” or “I swear by Dina’s nipples!” I mean, really if you must invoke, invoke well.

I would have to agree with Devin’s take on wicca as a training religion that begins to bring one a greater understanding of the great and groovy vibe, and eventually some of us do get past all the silliness, and the stupidity (I think I did at some point) to come out on the other side, healthier happier and hopefully a little wiser.

 

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It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus

 

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  posted on 18/7/2004 at 11:38 PM
if I get one more 'blessed be' from a total stranger again I swear to frickin hades I'm gonna stab a fork in their eye. No joke. Of everything, EVERYTHING, I hate that the most.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

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  posted on 19/7/2004 at 01:12 AM
What i love is the complete level of ignorance involved in this and other religions. the burning times... they keep talking about the witches burned... when only one was actually a witch... and that one walked away, one of 4 people acquitted...

BUT I love the fact that they will say that the upside down pentacle has been a symbol of negativity and evil for centuries, when in reality in european witchcraft the upside down is the pentamorph and used for "deestructive workings (such as breaking a hex, or massive defense)

 

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/>





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  posted on 19/7/2004 at 02:36 AM
uhm.... i got one question....
What IS Wicca?
and what is this Pagan stuff?
And why is christianism intolerant?

 

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  posted on 19/7/2004 at 06:01 AM
www.altavista.com can be very useful instances such as this

 

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/>
/>







Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 19/7/2004 at 06:41 AM
Okay I've been trying not to post in the forum but alas I can resist no longer....

I have alot of Wiccans in my life but none of them can really tell mee much about it. I get the impression they really dont understand it much themselves. Which is okay I suppose since one of the ideas that most Wiccans convey is that it is supposed to be a very intuitive mindset.

The trouble is that most people seem to trun to Wicca because they realize that the Xian church is a huge load of culty bullshit and are never deprogrammed form the cult. The result is that they continue in a Xian mindset. They stay preachy, dogmatic, and love to point out what is "evil" in the world today.

It's really a shame. I find the idea of nature worship to be appealing.

If anyone wants to get mee really pissed-off they can bring up Alexander Summers...

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to die so i could watch, and then me die.

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  posted on 21/7/2004 at 05:54 AM
@ferraluce: I'd like to have the matter explained by the users HERE and not to pick up every little piece by myself.
btw. altavista sucks....
if anybody would ask me, what i believe in (sort of Christianism), i would explain it... and not point to a fuckin' metacrawler....

 

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  posted on 21/7/2004 at 06:43 AM
Bane: you will find that in matters such as religion, it is best to do the research before entering a conversation...

But christianity is intollerant because the book says "I am the way the truth and the life" leaving no path other than that which is outlined in the book. As an example... I cite the crusades... "you do not believe in my god so I am going to kill you" seems pretty damn intollerant to me...

Simple definition frrom dictionary.com
Wicca: A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.

Pagan: One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion

 

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/>

/>









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  posted on 21/7/2004 at 07:18 AM
Also bane... you asked waht is wicca... not what I believe... major difference

 

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/>

/>


/>











Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 21/7/2004 at 07:43 AM
I can beleive it feral, you are being "nice" to Bane. that is sooo strange.

Bane: you want to know, go find someone that wants to tell you about other religions. I think, only think, that we have 2 wiccans, or post-wiccans on this site and, depending on definition, no Pagans (but lots of other religions that dont think of themselves in terms of their non-Christian-ness), and a few heathen also know as Satanists, Atheists, and Agnostics, at least to Christians. none of them seem to want to tell you all about it in this forum. Not because you didnt ask nicely or because they dont want thier religion torn apart by your brain, but rather because there are whole websites devoted to this sort of thing, and this isnt one of them.

If you want to take a class on comparative religions or world religions, im sure that your local college offers them as well as any Wiccan or Pagen bookshops or churchs in your area.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.

 
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