Well, since the only forum that's been getting posts recently is the damn
question game, I thought I'd put something up a bit more intellectually
provoking...
Unless you've been living under a rock, you've heard about the abuses at
the prison in Iraq. Sodomy, humiliation, all sorts of bad stuff. The
soldiers blame it on the intelligence spooks. The spooks disavow any
knowledge. The figureheads of the Defense Department and the CIA say it
wasn't their fault and that they acted as quickly as they could. The Red
Cross said they told those figureheads about the abuses months ago.
And George W. Bush thinks Donald Rumsfeld is doing a 'superb' job.
So what do you all think?
____________________ Piggy's got the Conch!
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 12/5/2004 at 12:24 PM
I say we dye the skin of the pres, BUMSfield, and all the spooks that can
be rounded up and admit them to the prisons as insane spies. and video tape
it.
Asia pays good money for those kinds of tapes, or so i hear. Hell it might
even help pay for the war and the widows and orphans fund.
in other less sarcastic words, it makes me ill.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 12/5/2004 at 03:14 PM
Four simple words: get rid of Rumsfeld. In matter of fact, the GOP will
remain crooked as long as he's in there...along with a few other people.
[Edited on 5/12/2004 by Anya]
Kittyn
Coward
Posts: 8 Registered: 28/3/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 12/5/2004 at 04:55 PM
mmm...oh joys, you get to hear a rant:
The powers that be say that it was the fault of their underlings, the
underlings dispense it among their men, and their men accuse each other.
Are you honestly going to tell me that this shit was goin on without the
knowledge or approval of someone in power? DO you think that this someone
in power could resist telling his buddies "Oh man, you say your guys are
doing a good job with their sector, well listen to this..." Screw the red
cross, they said something, probably, but did they -do- anything? We're
supposed to be 'helping iraq sort out its gov't' yet we give them this shit
as an example? Hey, everybody, Hitlers back, hes the prez. I seriously dont
think that this was the act of a small contigent of pee ons. Originally,
sure, a bit of beating and terrorizing of a few prisoners, no big deal, but
someone had to make it routine, and they couldnt have done that without
authorization, and it couldnt have been authorized without it being
whipsered up the chain.
I'm sorry, does my anti-patriotism show? Pardon the rant, and ignore it if
you wish, but the question got me going.
[Edited on 12/5/2004 by Kittyn]
____________________ I have a signature. Am I special now?
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 12/5/2004 at 09:50 PM
First of all, Ironboots I lived under a rock for many years and object to
yor characterizing us rock-dwellers as oblivious. For shame!
Second of all, I think yoo people are missing the point here. Torture is
entirely neccessary, we need to make the Iraquis more upset with us so that
the terrorists will be more likely to attack us. When they attack us we'll
know who they are and kill them! Then the Iraqi people will be free to
practice the system of governemnt we choose for them. Then everything will
be okay!
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
Yeah! Totally, and then the economy can get fucked hard again, we can all
sit on unemployment, and then since we'll be at war again they can raise
gas prices even FURTHER than they are now, and those of us that still have
jobs will go bankrupt just DRIVING there!!
And didn't the last attackers already tell us it was them? We kinda
already know who it is, we just can't find that slippery 90 year old nomad
on kidney dialysis.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
angel_of_death
Member
Posts: 119 Registered: 4/4/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 12:13 AM
i only have one thing to say on this issue.
GB invades iraq (he never had the right to in the first place)
They take prisoners
They toture the prisoners
The iraq freedom fighters take a prisoner and hack his head off
yes, i said hack, i have watched the video, this mad died screamingin pain,
for 15 sec he was in pain. i know im only an aussie, and i really dont
matter, but i cried when i saw this, i cried because we as humans have sunk
this low, because this mad did for out mistakes. GB invaded, without
thinking it through, and know he had blood on his hands.
____________________ I know whats it like to want to die, how it hurts to smile, how you try to
fit in but you can't, how you hurt yourself on the outside, to try to kill
the pain in the inside.
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 01:45 AM
What do I think...? The same thing I thought before this idiocy happened
when I was ranting and marching against it and having my patriotism
questioned. I think you people are easier to play than a fucking plastic
recorder and it doesn't matter how many lives and civil liberties are torn
apart while you reel in feigned simple-minded shock and mortification at
every new piece of evidence that the USA and the UK are every bit as bad as
the worst tinpot dictator in the tiniest third world shithole.
I think that those "scandalous" pictures you saw (and I can say with the
authority of someone who blundered into an anti-American rally in a foreign
country that you have not nor will you see the half of them in the United
States) are WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO THINGS LIKE THIS! You're shocked?
Appalled? Questioning your undying support for killing people in other
soveriegn nations? WHAT IN THE HOLY HELL DID YOU THINK WOULD HAPPEN WHEN
YOU WERE WAVING YOUR FLAG AND SCREAMING FOR BLOOD?
I'm sorry, the vast majority called me an unrealistic pacifist (amongst
other things) while they were chomping at the bit to invade a soveriegn
country... and now they have the fucking temerity to act shocked? Did you
think nobody would be harmed? Did you think no abuses would occur? Do you
think that wars are sanitary affairs where families aren't torn apart and
nobody dies in pain???? You screamed for suffering and now you have your
fucking suffering. Time to take some fucking responsibility and shut your
coddled, naive little pablum holes. I made my position against this clear
from the start... I say that a world court should decide who to hold
accountable... AND ONE THAT ISN'T AS RIFE WITH CONFLICTS-OF-INTEREST AS THE
USA WAS WHEN PURSUING THIS DEBACLE IN THE FIRST PLACE! Sorry this didn't
turn out to be the Hollywood action/adventure you thought it would be.
Sorry that killing people and seizing their resources while breaking apart
families and ensuring generations of retaliation didn't win their "hearts
and minds". Sorry you had to be inconvenienced by seeing pictures of some
small part of it. Dumbasses.
While we're on the topic... what do you think is currently going on in
Guantanamo Bay where we are holding Afghanis in violation of the Geneva
Convention? What do you think is going on in the "secret" naval brigs in
Charleston, SC where we are STILL holding US CITIZENS with no charges,
access to legal counsel or the media or ANY INTENTION WHATSOEVER to
prosecute them in violation of the US Constitution???? For that matter,
where is Saddam Hussein and what charges will he face apart from having
done business in the past with Bush the Elder and Rumsfeld against Iran
when Khomeini was the top dog there? Don't think that just because you
aren't seeing the photographs, that these people are being treated one iota
better than the Iraqis in Falluja are. Oh... wait. I forgot. We're the
"good guys"... and no photographic evidence will make people believe that
we do things like that. As George the Younger said in response to this:
"That's not the America I know!" Too bad that the America he knows exists
only in the imaginations of a very small number of obscenely rich
autocrats.
~M.
____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
angel_of_death
Member
Posts: 119 Registered: 4/4/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 02:12 AM
AMEN monolycus!!! its about time someone started to talk with a bit of
logic...
____________________ I know whats it like to want to die, how it hurts to smile, how you try
to
fit in but you can't, how you hurt yourself on the outside, to try to
kill
the pain in the inside.
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 02:21 AM
My thoughts...
I am outraged at the fact that the current administration thinks it's okay
to redefine and/or ignore the constitution any time it seems to suit their
mood. I am outraged at the goings on in Guantanamo Bay (and every where
else that people are told they aren't allowed basic rights because of this
or that technicality). I am outraged that so many people I encounter in
daily life don't seem to realize that what is in the news is not news. I am
outraged that my boss told me that as she sees it that Bush just has the
hardest job in the world and that he is just doing the best that he can.
I want to scream. I want to reach out and hold peoples faces so they can
look me in the eyes when they say all the sloppy wonderful words of praise
of all the wonderful things they think have happened because of the current
administration. I'm more disappointed than I care to admit that there is
really no hope that anything is likely to change very much in the next few
years.
I want to rip off the little red t-shirt with the American flag on it that
said "Freedom of Religion...Not Freedom From Religion." and tell the
kid who was wearing it to explain to me just exactly what he thinks that
means.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 02:37 AM
I am also amazed that there are people out there who actually didn't think
atrocities would be committed when war happens. It's war. It's not pretty
nice, it's pretty horrible. It destroys, it does not create. Yet, I run
into people who are shocked all the time. They think it's unusual that all
these things are going on. It's not that there are new things going on,
it's that now the war is on television and various other media. So now all
the glorious wonders of war are right there in the privacy of your own home
for your viewing pleasure.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never
tried before." ~Mae West
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 03:00 AM
AOD, Mono already HAS been talking about this for ages and ages, only
people argued with him back then instead of yelling Amen.
I will admit, I did not yell Amen back in the day. I was too fresh from
having everyone brainwash me into being fanatically pro-Bush. I knew that
my mind still wasn't straight enough yet to judge the issue properly. And
I did not want to just go from believing everything one person said to
believing everything someone else said.
So I held off with my opinion. But gradually, over the months, my opinion
on the matter has solidified to the point where I will say with certainty
and confidence, either Bush is a twisted, power-hungry
world-dictator-wanna-be, or he is the pawn of a twisted, power-hungry,
world-dictator-wanna-be administration. And, sadly to say, the stories of
abuse and torture did not shock me at all.
My question is, who is Kerry? Is he any different? Is he a megalomaniac
in disguise, or just another pawn? Is there any viable way in America's
political system to rid ourself of this disease, or are we headed for new
eras of opression? Or are we headed toward revolution? I don't think the
American people are prepared for revolution. Whatever happened to that
true American spirit that cried "Give me freedom or give me death"?
I cry, give me freedom, and give the Iraqi's freedom, because I would
rather not live in this world that is growing around me.
And then I sit, and think of the futility of trying to change anything.
Words will not change anything, and even force would not change anything.
Even were the few outraged Americans with the firepower to back their views
to stand up as they did in 1776, they would be quickly squashed by the vast
firepower of the establishment. We're not living in the Colonial days,
where it was musket to musket, and the rebels had the advantage of
home-turf and frontier fighting styles. Any dreams of a second American
Revolution are doomed to failure.
Is there really a chance at peaceful revolution?
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 05:38 AM
Well Schizo, the 21 Century American's motto is (to quote the Dead
Kennedys) "Give mee Convenience or give mee Death!"
In answer to yor question about Kerry: John Kerry (or "Bush-Lite" as I
like to call him) is actually a puppet of exactly the same people as our
current head of state. I am not going to begin a tyraid of paranoia here,
all I am saying is take a look at this man for a second.
His platform is almost identicial to Bush's platform. He has stood behind
Bush the whole way since Bush took office. Take a look at the promises
he's made and broken. Take a look at how he voted on issues. There has
only been one elected official in US history who has accepted more special
interest money than John Kerry, adn that person is George W. Bush.
I have said it before and I'll say it again: Have yoo ever seen the
Haloween episode of The Simpsons where the aliens come to Earth and posess
Clinton and Dole durring the 1996 election? That is the situation we have
on our hands right now.
Now for the paranoia: A friend and I were discussing US presidents and the
secret societies they belong(ed) to. This person told mee that this is the
first election he knew of in which both of the major parties' candidates
belonged to the same secret society (Skull and Bones). There was however,
one other, such election. In 1832 (coincidentally the year S&B was formed)
Andrew Jackson (FreeMason) defeated Henry Clay (FreeMason) as well the
Anti-Masonic Party candidate William Wirt (who, incidently, was also a
FreeMason).
In any case, the powers that be could give a good fuck what happens to the
masses, they're actually quite enjoying this. An American getting his head
sawed-off and several Iraqis being sodomized is amusing to them, though
they'll foget about it tommorrow because the masses are behaving exactly
how they want them to behave.
[Edited on 5/13/2004 by IamSquid]
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
so on one hand we have a drug runner, on the other hand a gun runner. Which
do i think is more "honest" and "better for the american people"?
I think they are both power mad freaks. so what? The rest of them have been
as well. We are a capitalist country so we get what we pay for. and most
of us are broke.
(both serches were fun with "family name" family fortune)
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 09:42 AM
I think a peaceful revolution is possible. The only reason the machinery
runs is because people walk the treadmill. If people wake up and refuse to
participate in an inept system, then the system will crumble.
But in order to get people to take a stand, they have to feel that they
have the power to enact that change. So the 'only' difficulty is getting
the people to believe in their own power for social change. Once you got
that, the rest follows.
"The revolution will not be televised... it will be live."
It is no longer a question of the best man for the job when it comes to
election time, but the lesser of two evils. I dont' like that option, but
it's the only option we have.
As for the "next american revolution"....honestly i think that most
americans are too lazy, brainwashed, and complacent to do anything, let
alone pick up arms and take their country back. I've had a bad feeling for
the last few years about the future sociopolitical (is that even a word?)
climate of this country, and IF it happens, it's going to be bad. Not bad
that people stand up and say enough is enough, but perhaps disasterous but
not least of which, ugly. Beneath the main stream of complacent doggie
paddling society, there is a strong undertow of seriously angry, upset, and
willful people who arent' content with just "swimming". Let's just hope
for a social revolution, and not an explosive physical upheaval. But
honestly, the tension is killing me.
ANd mono, I agree with you for the most part. My opinion is that Hussein
has been a problem to the world and to his own people for a long time.
He's a trouble maker, and a bad one. They should have taken care of him
during the first saudi war, and failed. I'm glad he's gone. BUT. BIG
BUT. We went in there for the wrong reason, with no clear agenda other
than get rid of him, killed a lot of innocent people, and lost a lot of
lives on our side as well. This will, in time, be the 21st century's
vietnam. Mired in a hostile country that wants nothing to do with us, and
no clear plan of why we're there anymore, or what our point was to begin
with. I'm disgusted, not shocked, by the civilian mutilations on BOTH
sides of the conflict. I expected it, but I'm still disgusted. I'm as
disgusted by the american controlled pow camps as I am by the murder and
mutilations of civilian security contractors guarding food convoys into the
country. I am disgusted by the biased an inaccurate reports that go by the
name of "news". Everyone knows that FOX news network is the american
equivalent of Al Jazera (I know I spelled that wrong), and I'm disgusted by
their expectations of americans as take what they give them as truth.
I am disgusted, but honestly, not shocked, because I know it is going to
get worse.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 01:42 PM
Kerry will not be any different from Bush. Don't vote for either of them.
Vote for a Nader, or the Green Party, or the Libertarians, or ANYONE but
those two.
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
/>
die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 02:54 PM
What really makes me laugh about Kerry and some other people are how they
try to put out a Robin Hood image (take from the rich, give to the poor
yay-hoo stuff) but at the same time, he's one of the richest guys in
America. I personally think that it's a bit hypocritical for I am damned
sure that he isn't going to be paying the tax bracket that he may put up.
Hells, most to none do...
Another thing that amuses me is that most of the Democratic Party were for
the war in Iraq and now a lot of them back out of the decision. John
Edwards in the debates said he feels he should take responsibillity,
Lieberman regrets little to nothing, BUT...Kerry takes back all the Bush
back-up he did.
Schizo: I feel you. I butted heads with Mono on A LOT of this stuff, as
you can tell, but I'm losing faith in the government now, as well. When
9/11 happened, I wanted to go after Bin Laden and was behind Bush all the
way, but after the crap going on in Iraq, my idealism and trust in the
President faded. I mean there was not that much in there in the first
place, but now I'm just glaring at the Administration with malice. Now I
just want the damned mess to get cleaned up and for us to get out of there.
I'm sick of people playing politics with wars. My grandpa, as a Vietnam
veteran, is sick of it as well.
Bettie: That's basically my stance on the situation. Hussein was a
dickhead, but why aren't we then going after Prince Abdullah of Saudi
Arabia? Isn't Kim Jong (right Kim?) of North Korea a big, bad ass too?
Bush tries to point out that Hussein was the worst dictator, but those two
got him beat. I guess he can't call his buddies (the Saudi leaders)
dictators, heh. Besides, even if they were not behind 9/11, Bin Laden was
funded by money trails coming from Saudi Arabia.
Bleh, forgive my rambling...my brain is fried.
LadyCygnet
Fanatic
Posts: 287 Registered: 31/10/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 13/5/2004 at 11:26 PM
Regarding the rapes and blatant violations of the Geneva Convention by the
US armed forced, I think is icon says it all:
Regarding the presidential election:
I'm with Squid on this one. For the love of God, vote for Nader. Vote for
your favortie Shmeng memeber over 35. Hell, vote for Barney. Just PLEASE
don't vote for Bush OR Kerry!
____________________ "To Live is to Annoy." -- Rev. Lambert Reilly, Archabbot, St. Meinrad Abbey
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 14/5/2004 at 08:28 AM
Anya: Your grandpa is a vietnam vet? Oui... I'm feeling old... and I'm only
19...
Lady C: Ah, straight and to the point... I like that.
Oh, and I'm not going to vote for Nader, either. He says he's pro-union,
but won't allow his own consumer groups to unionize. He refuses to release
his tax returns, and he thinks cats cause leukemia...
(www.realchange.com/nader.htm)
Oh, and that site, www.realchange.com has dirt on most of the candidates,
so if you want to get disillusioned about your 'perfect' candidate, go
there.
So I suppose I'll have to find someone else to vote for. Its kinda like
scraping the bottom of the barrel, though...