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Author: Subject: Murder by Vaginal Delivery

Extreme Fanatic





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Registered: 27/9/2002
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  posted on 12/3/2004 at 11:49 PM
I was watching BBCA before work today, and listened to a short report about a Utah woman being charged with first degree murder because of refusing a Casarean Section. So I went looking online tonight and found this article on it: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=YNNBSO4 GKUJSQCRBAEZSFFA?type=domesticNews&storyID=4559157 " target=_blank> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=YNNBSO4 GKUJSQCRBAEZSFFA?type=domesticNews&storyID=4559157

I got to say that regardless of her reasons for not wanting a C-Section, I think it's disturbing that it was considered first degree murder.

I wonder if a Jehovah's witness refusing a blood transfusion while pregnant, with a resultant stillborn birth, would be charged with first degree murder? Would the mother be told to hell with her religious beliefs or would they commend her for her strength of conviction? Is the woman's right to choose what happens to her body being effectively phased out entirely? How much longer will it be before it is determined that a woman's body is nothing more than a vessel to be used, and she has no say so in that use?

I can not see any difference between a woman choosing to not have a Caesarean Section, and a woman choosing to "electively abort" a few fetuses in a multiple pregnancy. Although, the latter seems to be allowed, and even encouraged.

I am pro-choice, and the whole issue of when a child becomes a child and the child's rights outweighing the rights of the mother seems to be more and more aimed at the woman having less and less of a say so over her own body and medical care.

[Edited on 3/13/2004 by Starlight]

 

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"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


 

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  posted on 12/3/2004 at 11:58 PM
fuckin mormon state

 

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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 13/3/2004 at 11:21 AM
Bleh. Luckily here in Florida, they passed a law, saying that if a mnor is in the hospital, say bleeding to death, that the parents have no right to refuse treatment to him,becuase of religion. There is no way to know if the child really is a Jehova's Witness or not, and it's illegal to just have the parents ask to let the kid die. So they put that power in the hands of the state. But not wanting a cecesarian birth? Jees, why not charge murder on every woman who has a still born, just becuase she wasn't strong enough, or because she has a disease, or got the flu. It's all bullshit.

 

____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard. Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat anything.”
Faulkner

 

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  posted on 13/3/2004 at 03:32 PM
i guess my big question is how do they KNOW the twin would have lived if they had done a C-section. Do they think it would have had even a 20% chance of making it?
and was she that worried about her body because it is what she needs to make the money to support the one that lived?

 

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  posted on 13/3/2004 at 11:46 PM
I read the article when it came out in my local paper, and it disturbed me. Utah hospitals must have a serious problem with patient education if the poor woman was that convinced that she'd be mutilated in the process of having a c-section...or maybe Utah doctors just aren't very good with hteir knives.

I don't think the woman needs to be charged with murder. She probably feels bad enough, knowing that her choice to have a regular delivery caused her other child to be born dead.

But they're missing a very important point here: women were going through natural child birth millenia before hte c-section was even thought of. C-sections are great for saving lives and all, but they are expensive and can have complications, just as live birth has complications. This sort of thing happens to animals all of the time. DO we prosecute the owners for not taking their animals to the vet for C-sections? No. This sort of thing happens in nature, and Callei is right in saying that the baby might not have survived anyway. Stuff happens.

I think that the poor woman was not educated well about the procedure, and I happen to think that the people accusing her of murder are a bunch of fucktards. Drowning all of your kids in a bathtub is murder. Losing a child through natural childbirth is just an unfortunate event.

 

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"To Live is to Annoy." -- Rev. Lambert Reilly, Archabbot, St. Meinrad Abbey

 

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  posted on 14/3/2004 at 01:46 PM
On headline news today, it's been stated that a few years back the woman had a child endangerment incident. Apparently she smacked her daughter for eating a candy bar and thusly preventing her from having enough money to buy her cigarettes. Well...how dare the little brat stand between a woman and her cigarettes.

Seriously though, a person's "character" should not be a reason to say it's wrong of her to choose vaginal delivery over Caesarian. Hell, for that matter, I guess everyone who tries to do vaginal and ends up with an emergency C-Section should be charged with attempted murder if the child lives. Silly people, brains are for those who know how to use them.

 

____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West




 

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  posted on 14/3/2004 at 03:12 PM
Take it from this point of view. There are countless people out there in the US who are dying because of a lack of donated organs. I have neither donated my spare kidney, neither have I marked the "cut me off and suck out my organs if I'm near death" check on the back of my driver's license. That, by all rights should make me a double count murderer, more than that if you include all the potential victims that I am killing by my lack of help. Just because the child is biologically related to this lady should not make a difference, we should give the death penalty to everyone with two healthy kidneys. That way, instead of killing one person by not donating their spare, they could save two lives!

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me

 

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  posted on 14/3/2004 at 06:04 PM
I went through a similar experience when I had my twins. It was eight weeks too early, and they were having problems. They were sharing the same placenta and umbilical cord, and got what is known as "twin to twin transfusion". Basically, one twin was getting more than his share of blood and nutrients, and the other was wasting away. Both twins were in extreme danger. I had to have an emergency c-section. When I found out, the day they hospitalized me, I cried. I was terrified of being gutted like a pig for slaughter, while awake and aware. I knew that with an epidural, I wouldn't feel anything (maybe, I'd heard horror stories of the epidural not working right in some cases) but I was still terrified. When they were taking me to the emergency room, they held up the paper I'd signed to have my tubes tied afterward, and said that I might want to change my mind about that, as they "might not make it". That didn't make me feel any better, I was worried about the harm to myself already, and I had to consider the fact that my children might die. I told them to tear up the paper. If they did die, I would want the choice to try again. I didn't even think about refusing the c-section, they wouldn't have survived a vaginal birth for certain. It wasn't certain that I would survive either vaginal delivery or c-section. As it was, it was a few months before I could bring them home from the hospital. They are both very healthy boys now, no problems, although the people at the hospital kept telling me that the little one would be retarded or learning disabled or have attention deficit problems. He's fine, very intelligent and creative as a matter of fact. They do love to scare you silly at the hospital.

I don't think the woman should be accused of murder. There are a lot of difficult choices an expectant mother has to make, and if it was a spur of the moment decision, in the circumstances she was in, she can't be held accountable for whatever choice she made. If she was at a hospital like the one I was at, they probably told her all kinds of horror stories. Her friends could have scared her with stories of c-sections like the epidural maybe not working one that I heard, IN A LAMAZE CLASS! No woman who is giving birth is thinking clearly, especially in emergency circumstances. They should take that into consideration. She did the best she could do under the curcumstances.

 

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  posted on 15/3/2004 at 09:43 AM
Wow... I am feeling so lucky to be a guy right now and not have to deal with tough decisions like that...

 

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  posted on 15/3/2004 at 05:34 PM
I have had the misfortune of undergoing two c-section deliveries.(FIRST PREGNANCY AND THE LAST ONE, A YEAR AGO) They are not pleasant and I am so shocked that this woman would be accused of murder when her decision might have been based on fear. Everytime we go through surgery we place our lives in a stranger's hands. I have 4 children. I have experienced both sides of the coin during the delivery of my kids. I cannot exactly blame someone for wanting to refuse a c-section. It is almost like undergoing human vivisection except they give you something for pain. My first c-section actually traumatized me and when I had one last year, I asked them to put me under because I didn't want to be awake the whole time. It is very strange feeling. It would freak anyone out. The charges against this woman are harsh, the next thing you know , women will be charged with murder everytime they have a miscarriage or still birth. the arrest of this woman is unconstitutional. I must add that my last c-section , my wound was infected and i walked around with a hole in my side because they had to cut the sutures and for 6 weeks I had to pack the wound. There is a risk with every surgical procedure.

 

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  posted on 15/3/2004 at 07:59 PM
I don't know if I would be classified as pro-choice or not. At this point, the only type of abortion that I am weary of is the third trimester one that goes without medical or life/death situations. The really early ones aren't as sickening to me.

Anyway, my mom had to do a C-section on me. She almost died, but survived. I do not understand why the girl is charged with murder in this case since it was obviously a medical reason on why she refused to do the C-section - it was a very, very dangerous procedure. *sigh*

 

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  posted on 15/3/2004 at 09:07 PM
because sweetie once you are pregnant, you no longer have the right to say what happens to your body. the thing (and yes sometimes it becomes a person but not always) growing in you is considered more important than you. its not the doctors fault, or the sperm donner or the "church" or govt. Its also someting that you feel when you are preggers. but it still sucks. and giving life still kills millions of women every year.

 

____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.

 

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  posted on 15/3/2004 at 09:09 PM
ariadne... with my c-section, they couldn't put me under.. I wanted that. badly. they did put me under while they were stitching me up, it was all I could do to not go hysterical during the procedure. as soon as the boys were out of me, I said, "Knock me out." blessedly, they did so. Poor Rogue had to watch them do the whole thing, and he had to do it with a straight face and without freaking out, because I was looking at him the whole time. he was far more traumatized than I was, I had a screen, and when the stupid bitch at my head started telling me what was going on, I looked ather and told her to shut up, I was going away. I tried to think of ANYTHING but what was happening. Later, Rogue told me about the copious amounts of blood involved, and how they took my uterus out and played with it and put it back. I don't think I could watch sometihng like that without throwing up. Luckily, they put it back in the right place. when I'd had my second daughter, it had knocked stuff loose in there, and sex was painful, everything was too low. they put it right during the c-section, so some good came out of it, anyway. It is like human vivisection, and it's a very painful recovery. They gave me a Demerol button that I could push every 10 minutes, and you better believe I was watching that clock and pushing it every chance I got. It hurt for weeks afterward. That was one of the most miserable times of my life, i went home in pain, with a huge scar across my middle, with an electrical breast pump that I hooked myself up to every few hours so I could get breast milk for the babies I had to leave at the hospital, and so I wouldn't get milk fever or lose my milk, I cried all the time. It was horrible. Laughing hurt the worst. I will never put blame onto someone who doesn't want that to happen to their body, it is the worst kind of invasion.

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 01:08 AM
you are so right ,mj, it is horrible. being awake while you are being cut is like something out of a horror flick, my first husband said the exact same thing that rogue told you about the procedure, it was surreal, he almost fainted. all he saw was me being awake and talking while my insides were being messed with. what i hated the most about my first c-section was the fact that while i was being cut i could see the blood splatter on the sheet in front of me. that was not cool at all. with my last c-section , since i was knocked out, i didn't get to see my daughter right away, but for my sanity's sake it was worth it. the only reason they agreed to put me under at all was because something went wrong with my epidural, so i was blessed this time but the staph infection after i got home was the hardest part. i am still in shock that this woman was charged with murder because she refused a c-section. that is just absurd.

[Edited on 16/3/2004 by ariadne]

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 03:56 AM
I find the thought that they can accuse someone of murder, just for making the decision NOT to let doctors cut them open, highly squicky. If she chose to go ahead with a natural birth, then I don't think it really matters *why* she made that choice. The point is that it's natural - the ways things have been done for centuries now, but suddenly because the doctors decide they can do things better it becomes murder to give birth to a child naturally. Well that's really quite disturbing.

And after hearing your stories, MJ and Ariadne, I wouldn't be surprised the woman in question was scared of having a C-section - I know I'm bloody petrified of having to go through that now! Least I have a while before even thinking of having babies!

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 06:29 AM
squicky?

 

____________________
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 07:45 AM
*blush* I couldn't think of a better word at the time.

It's the feeling you get in your stomach when you know stuff is wrong, and it makes you very uncomfortable.

 

____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 04:21 PM
Yeah, I know how giving life can be a death situation. Perhaps the risk isn't as high in the US since we have technology and [hopefully] educated people that know what to do when someone is pregnant, but it isn't like that everywhere. There's some places that are underdeveloped and the women end up bleeding to death after giving birth.

Ironboots: On top of that, the world is your bathroom if you're a guy. *snickers at her little joke*

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 04:48 PM
Anya, many women still die from childbirth right here in the US. Giving birth is one of the most dangerous things a woman can do. You never know when something really small but really stupid will happen, and a lot of times, even a roomful of doctors can't fix it. Caesarean births are even more dangerous, there's risk of infection, something going wrong with the procedure, it's very invasive and anything could go wrong with it.

 

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  posted on 16/3/2004 at 08:47 PM
*smiles* There is another good side to being "preggers"...... other than a baby......You women get to watch us men squirm and also drive us crazy with your mood swings.

MJ: Hopefully that will change one day.....and giving will be safer.

 

____________________
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