I got to say that regardless of her reasons for not wanting a C-Section, I
think it's disturbing that it was considered first degree murder.
I wonder if a Jehovah's witness refusing a blood transfusion while
pregnant, with a resultant stillborn birth, would be charged with first
degree murder? Would the mother be told to hell with her religious beliefs
or would they commend her for her strength of conviction? Is the woman's
right to choose what happens to her body being effectively phased out
entirely? How much longer will it be before it is determined that a woman's
body is nothing more than a vessel to be used, and she has no say so in
that use?
I can not see any difference between a woman choosing to not have a
Caesarean Section, and a woman choosing to "electively abort" a few fetuses
in a multiple pregnancy. Although, the latter seems to be allowed, and even
encouraged.
I am pro-choice, and the whole issue of when a child becomes a child and
the child's rights outweighing the rights of the mother seems to be more
and more aimed at the woman having less and less of a say so over her own
body and medical care.
[Edited on 3/13/2004 by Starlight]
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic
Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 13/3/2004 at 11:21 AM
Bleh. Luckily here in Florida, they passed a law, saying that if a mnor is
in the hospital, say bleeding to death, that the parents have no right to
refuse treatment to him,becuase of religion. There is no way to know if the
child really is a Jehova's Witness or not, and it's illegal to just have
the parents ask to let the kid die. So they put that power in the hands of
the state. But not wanting a cecesarian birth? Jees, why not charge murder
on every woman who has a still born, just becuase she wasn't strong enough,
or because she has a disease, or got the flu. It's all bullshit.
____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 13/3/2004 at 03:32 PM
i guess my big question is how do they KNOW the twin would have lived if
they had done a C-section. Do they think it would have had even a 20%
chance of making it?
and was she that worried about her body because it is what she needs to
make the money to support the one that lived?
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
LadyCygnet
Fanatic
Posts: 287 Registered: 31/10/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 13/3/2004 at 11:46 PM
I read the article when it came out in my local paper, and it disturbed me.
Utah hospitals must have a serious problem with patient education if the
poor woman was that convinced that she'd be mutilated in the process of
having a c-section...or maybe Utah doctors just aren't very good with hteir
knives.
I don't think the woman needs to be charged with murder. She probably
feels bad enough, knowing that her choice to have a regular delivery caused
her other child to be born dead.
But they're missing a very important point here: women were going through
natural child birth millenia before hte c-section was even thought of.
C-sections are great for saving lives and all, but they are expensive and
can have complications, just as live birth has complications. This sort of
thing happens to animals all of the time. DO we prosecute the owners for
not taking their animals to the vet for C-sections? No. This sort of
thing happens in nature, and Callei is right in saying that the baby might
not have survived anyway. Stuff happens.
I think that the poor woman was not educated well about the procedure, and
I happen to think that the people accusing her of murder are a bunch of
fucktards. Drowning all of your kids in a bathtub is murder. Losing a
child through natural childbirth is just an unfortunate event.
____________________ "To Live is to Annoy." -- Rev. Lambert Reilly, Archabbot, St. Meinrad Abbey
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 14/3/2004 at 01:46 PM
On headline news today, it's been stated that a few years back the woman
had a child endangerment incident. Apparently she smacked her daughter for
eating a candy bar and thusly preventing her from having enough money to
buy her cigarettes. Well...how dare the little brat stand between a woman
and her cigarettes.
Seriously though, a person's "character" should not be a reason to say it's
wrong of her to choose vaginal delivery over Caesarian. Hell, for that
matter, I guess everyone who tries to do vaginal and ends up with an
emergency C-Section should be charged with attempted murder if the child
lives. Silly people, brains are for those who know how to use them.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never
tried before." ~Mae West
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 14/3/2004 at 03:12 PM
Take it from this point of view. There are countless people out there in
the US who are dying because of a lack of donated organs. I have neither
donated my spare kidney, neither have I marked the "cut me off and suck out
my organs if I'm near death" check on the back of my driver's license.
That, by all rights should make me a double count murderer, more than that
if you include all the potential victims that I am killing by my lack of
help. Just because the child is biologically related to this lady should
not make a difference, we should give the death penalty to everyone with
two healthy kidneys. That way, instead of killing one person by not
donating their spare, they could save two lives!
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me
Meranda_Jade
Fanatic
Posts: 511 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 14/3/2004 at 06:04 PM
I went through a similar experience when I had my twins. It was eight weeks
too early, and they were having problems. They were sharing the same
placenta and umbilical cord, and got what is known as "twin to twin
transfusion". Basically, one twin was getting more than his share of blood
and nutrients, and the other was wasting away. Both twins were in extreme
danger. I had to have an emergency c-section. When I found out, the day
they hospitalized me, I cried. I was terrified of being gutted like a pig
for slaughter, while awake and aware. I knew that with an epidural, I
wouldn't feel anything (maybe, I'd heard horror stories of the epidural not
working right in some cases) but I was still terrified. When they were
taking me to the emergency room, they held up the paper I'd signed to have
my tubes tied afterward, and said that I might want to change my mind about
that, as they "might not make it". That didn't make me feel any better, I
was worried about the harm to myself already, and I had to consider the
fact that my children might die. I told them to tear up the paper. If they
did die, I would want the choice to try again. I didn't even think about
refusing the c-section, they wouldn't have survived a vaginal birth for
certain. It wasn't certain that I would survive either vaginal delivery or
c-section. As it was, it was a few months before I could bring them home
from the hospital. They are both very healthy boys now, no problems,
although the people at the hospital kept telling me that the little one
would be retarded or learning disabled or have attention deficit problems.
He's fine, very intelligent and creative as a matter of fact. They do love
to scare you silly at the hospital.
I don't think the woman should be accused of murder. There are a lot of
difficult choices an expectant mother has to make, and if it was a spur of
the moment decision, in the circumstances she was in, she can't be held
accountable for whatever choice she made. If she was at a hospital like the
one I was at, they probably told her all kinds of horror stories. Her
friends could have scared her with stories of c-sections like the epidural
maybe not working one that I heard, IN A LAMAZE CLASS! No woman who is
giving birth is thinking clearly, especially in emergency circumstances.
They should take that into consideration. She did the best she could do
under the curcumstances.
____________________
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 15/3/2004 at 09:43 AM
Wow... I am feeling so lucky to be a guy right now and not have to deal
with tough decisions like that...
____________________ Piggy's got the Conch!
ariadne
Member
Posts: 107 Registered: 26/9/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 15/3/2004 at 05:34 PM
I have had the misfortune of undergoing two c-section deliveries.(FIRST
PREGNANCY AND THE LAST ONE, A YEAR AGO) They are not pleasant and I am so
shocked that this woman would be accused of murder when her decision might
have been based on fear. Everytime we go through surgery we place our lives
in a stranger's hands. I have 4 children. I have experienced both sides of
the coin during the delivery of my kids. I cannot exactly blame someone for
wanting to refuse a c-section. It is almost like undergoing human
vivisection except they give you something for pain. My first c-section
actually traumatized me and when I had one last year, I asked them to put
me under because I didn't want to be awake the whole time. It is very
strange feeling. It would freak anyone out. The charges against this woman
are harsh, the next thing you know , women will be charged with murder
everytime they have a miscarriage or still birth. the arrest of this woman
is unconstitutional. I must add that my last c-section , my wound was
infected and i walked around with a hole in my side because they had to cut
the sutures and for 6 weeks I had to pack the wound. There is a risk with
every surgical procedure.
____________________
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 15/3/2004 at 07:59 PM
I don't know if I would be classified as pro-choice or not. At this point,
the only type of abortion that I am weary of is the third trimester one
that goes without medical or life/death situations. The really early ones
aren't as sickening to me.
Anyway, my mom had to do a C-section on me. She almost died, but survived.
I do not understand why the girl is charged with murder in this case since
it was obviously a medical reason on why she refused to do the C-section -
it was a very, very dangerous procedure. *sigh*
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 15/3/2004 at 09:07 PM
because sweetie once you are pregnant, you no longer have the right to say
what happens to your body. the thing (and yes sometimes it becomes a person
but not always) growing in you is considered more important than you. its
not the doctors fault, or the sperm donner or the "church" or govt. Its
also someting that you feel when you are preggers. but it still sucks. and
giving life still kills millions of women every year.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Meranda_Jade
Fanatic
Posts: 511 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 15/3/2004 at 09:09 PM
ariadne... with my c-section, they couldn't put me under.. I wanted that.
badly. they did put me under while they were stitching me up, it was all I
could do to not go hysterical during the procedure. as soon as the boys
were out of me, I said, "Knock me out." blessedly, they did so. Poor Rogue
had to watch them do the whole thing, and he had to do it with a straight
face and without freaking out, because I was looking at him the whole time.
he was far more traumatized than I was, I had a screen, and when the stupid
bitch at my head started telling me what was going on, I looked ather and
told her to shut up, I was going away. I tried to think of ANYTHING but
what was happening. Later, Rogue told me about the copious amounts of blood
involved, and how they took my uterus out and played with it and put it
back. I don't think I could watch sometihng like that without throwing up.
Luckily, they put it back in the right place. when I'd had my second
daughter, it had knocked stuff loose in there, and sex was painful,
everything was too low. they put it right during the c-section, so some
good came out of it, anyway. It is like human vivisection, and it's a very
painful recovery. They gave me a Demerol button that I could push every 10
minutes, and you better believe I was watching that clock and pushing it
every chance I got. It hurt for weeks afterward. That was one of the most
miserable times of my life, i went home in pain, with a huge scar across my
middle, with an electrical breast pump that I hooked myself up to every few
hours so I could get breast milk for the babies I had to leave at the
hospital, and so I wouldn't get milk fever or lose my milk, I cried all the
time. It was horrible. Laughing hurt the worst. I will never put blame onto
someone who doesn't want that to happen to their body, it is the worst kind
of invasion.
____________________
ariadne
Member
Posts: 107 Registered: 26/9/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 16/3/2004 at 01:08 AM
you are so right ,mj, it is horrible. being awake while you are being cut
is like something out of a horror flick, my first husband said the exact
same thing that rogue told you about the procedure, it was surreal, he
almost fainted. all he saw was me being awake and talking while my insides
were being messed with. what i hated the most about my first c-section was
the fact that while i was being cut i could see the blood splatter on the
sheet in front of me. that was not cool at all. with my last c-section ,
since i was knocked out, i didn't get to see my daughter right away, but
for my sanity's sake it was worth it. the only reason they agreed to put me
under at all was because something went wrong with my epidural, so i was
blessed this time but the staph infection after i got home was the hardest
part. i am still in shock that this woman was charged with murder because
she refused a c-section. that is just absurd.
[Edited on 16/3/2004 by ariadne]
____________________
Psychopixi
Fanatic
Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 16/3/2004 at 03:56 AM
I find the thought that they can accuse someone of murder, just for making
the decision NOT to let doctors cut them open, highly squicky. If she chose
to go ahead with a natural birth, then I don't think it really matters
*why* she made that choice. The point is that it's natural - the
ways things have been done for centuries now, but suddenly because the
doctors decide they can do things better it becomes murder to give
birth to a child naturally. Well that's really quite disturbing.
And after hearing your stories, MJ and Ariadne, I wouldn't be surprised the
woman in question was scared of having a C-section - I know I'm bloody
petrified of having to go through that now! Least I have a while before
even thinking of having babies!
____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Psychopixi
Fanatic
Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 16/3/2004 at 07:45 AM
*blush* I couldn't think of a better word at the time.
It's the feeling you get in your stomach when you know stuff is wrong, and
it makes you very uncomfortable.
____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 16/3/2004 at 04:21 PM
Yeah, I know how giving life can be a death situation. Perhaps the risk
isn't as high in the US since we have technology and [hopefully] educated
people that know what to do when someone is pregnant, but it isn't like
that everywhere. There's some places that are underdeveloped and the women
end up bleeding to death after giving birth.
Ironboots: On top of that, the world is your bathroom if you're a guy.
*snickers at her little joke*
Meranda_Jade
Fanatic
Posts: 511 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 16/3/2004 at 04:48 PM
Anya, many women still die from childbirth right here in the US. Giving
birth is one of the most dangerous things a woman can do. You never know
when something really small but really stupid will happen, and a lot of
times, even a roomful of doctors can't fix it. Caesarean births are even
more dangerous, there's risk of infection, something going wrong with the
procedure, it's very invasive and anything could go wrong with it.
____________________
Zero
Fanatic
Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 16/3/2004 at 08:47 PM
*smiles* There is another good side to being "preggers"...... other than a
baby......You women get to watch us men squirm and also drive us crazy with
your mood swings.
MJ: Hopefully that will change one day.....and giving will be safer.
____________________ "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~
The Sandman, Dream Country