Evil, done in the name of good... is still evil...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
dead-cell
Fanatic
Posts: 344 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 8/12/2003 at 11:07 PM
Well I don't remember Elf or Alf taking anyone's life just lots of
vandalism, but tis a narrow path they walk.
....me bad grammar fix...
[Edited on 12/9/2003 by dead-cell]
____________________ co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)
I don't think they're any better than abortion clinic bombers, they're
still a form of terrorist and they give a lot of rational
vegetarians/vegans a really bad rap. Of course they say we make
vegetarians/vegans look like pussies, but eh.... Tho being biased I have
to say that they have the balls to do what I WANNA do in the back of my
head, I still think it's wrong and would never do it myself or necessarily
condone their actions.
And I haven't heard of them resulting in a human death, but they quite
frequently do massive amounts of property damage, blowing labs and burning
housing developments as they're being built.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 9/12/2003 at 12:30 PM
As far as I have been able to tell, Peta and the other things I belong to
do not preach or condone any form of violence to accomplish a goal. I've
been very selective in what I currently support and I would sever all ties
with any group I felt went against my own personal feelings on the matter.
ELF and ALF are violent groups and I would never want to have Peta in the
same category as them. If it did (or anything for that matter that I
belonged to) then I'd drop them as fast I could say Bye.
Unfortunately there are some people who do belong to Peta who've gotten
hand-out materials that are meant to be given to adults...not
children...and given them to children...successfully scaring them out of
their minds and pissing off their parents. My mother in law saw some of
these people handing them out at an elementary school. There are
age-appropriate material that can be given to teachers to use in class...at
their own discretion...since I think what those few did was wrong.
There are billboards that do hammer home a point...but they are usually not
extremely graphic...they may show some not very nice scenes or
cartoons...by they are more to a point than gory...or at least within what
is allowed by local areas, etc.
It's the same as in any group...you will have people within a group...not
the group itself...who will go radical on something...they are not
expressing the group concensus when they do so...unless the group itself is
a violent, etc. type of group. I don't feel like I'm forced to defend Peta
as a non-violent group, as I'm certain that any informed person would
already know that the group itself is not a violent group by any means. I
am expressing my desire that if any one does seriously find themselves
questioning Peta protesters as to their motives, they will find that the
non-violent protestors are the ones that are doing things in the name of
Peta...while any one doing anything more than non-violent is doing their
own thing entirely.
I feel pretty certain that you could probably find a few Peta members who
would condone things that I would never under any circumstances condone,
but again that is simply their view...not every single person within a
charitable organization's membership.
And lastly, Peta jokes are funny...sick and funny.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 9/12/2003 at 01:26 PM
They're no better than terrorists...as much as I hate the pollution in the
air, I still drive a 35 mile/gallon car and they probably still drive
SUV's...
*cant say much right now - trying to get over her bronchidus...*
Kira
Member
Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 9/12/2003 at 02:23 PM
quote:A question.
ELF and ALF, groups of people committing violent crimes in the name of the
environment and animals.
Are they no better than abortion clinic bombers, or are they the saviors of
man kind?
Woah, kind of a stretch there. Abortion clinic bombers kill people. The ALF
is "an international underground movement of compassionate people who work
anonymously to rescue animals from places of abuse, and to cause financial
damage to animal abuse industries through a strategy of non-violent
property destruction. In the twenty years of ALF actions there has never
been any injury or death caused to any animal or human in the course of
their actions" according the the ALF Press Office. All I could find record
of was damage to property, granted some pretty severe, and financial
damages to companies by way of stealing ("liberating") animals.
The ELF guidelines are similar:
* To inflict economic damage on those profiting from the destruction and
exploitation of the natural environment.
* To reveal and educate the public on the atrocities committed against the
earth and all species that populate it.
* To take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and
non-human.
So, yeah...they're committing crimes all right. But it seems like neither
group has ever intentionally harmed a person. Therefore, the crimes are
non-violent and a poor comparison to clinic bombers and Al-Queda. No doubt
that some of the people involved in either organization are nut-bar
fanatics...but I can't put them on the same level as killers.
But at the same time I will also say it is hard to feel sorry for a lot of
the people/organizations they target.
____________________ Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
See Kira I'm kind of with you on that side of the issue. My main problem
is that I DON"T feel sorry, it's not hard for me at all. I wouldn't
participate, as I am insofar a law abiding citizen, but unless they're
harming people or animals I kind of just look the other way. YES most of
those people are nuts, I've known a couple in my life (and not just nuts
when referring to animal liberation, but just flat out got their hamsters
running in reverse).
I think what statement I agree with is that they ARE technically
terrorists, and are using the same "tactics" as al queida and abortion
clinic bombers only they aren't using humans as their targets. The ELF
will GLADLY reiterate that they are eco-terrorists, as they use fear and
non lethal destruction to stop an action or make the land developer think
twice.
I agree with child friendly materials on the animal rights bit, but for the
most part the pamphlets ARE so graphic to simply make the largest shock
impression on the person reading as possible to make a dent in a lifetime
of a brainwashed mentality that animals are unfeeling, unthinking, and that
cows are HAPPY to be hamburgers. You see it all the time, a smiling cow
cartoon holding a hamburger or steak, or in an apron in front of a bbq. We
all grew up with the grocery store image of the happy dairy cow, or those
STUPID FUCKING Dairygold "Helper cows" with their holiday helpers the
"Dairy Fairies". If you ask a kid where milk comes from, they say cow.
When you ask them WHY cows make milk, they say because that's where it
comes from. Making them understand that their milk is a byproduct of
pregnancy and childbirth, and then make them question WHERE that calf goes
or become is simple RESPONSIBILITY. Hell half the ADULTS I know get green
and refuse to believe me when I tell them what gelatin is!
I pick up several copies of the "why vegetarian" pamphlets every time I go
eat at bamboo garden in seattle, and I give them to people who are either
too retarded to understand WHY I don't eat meat, or those who want to know
more about it, or about the animal industry if they're on the fence about
even buying free range. It's graphic because it has to be.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 10/12/2003 at 01:42 AM
I agree with Kira here, but I sympathize a bit more with the ELF and ALF.
There's millions of animals kept in tiny cages, prodded and tortured;
there's millions of tons of toxic chemicals being created and sent out into
the world; and thousands of acres of wild lands are being cleared to make
way for suburbs, cattle ranches, and oil drilling operations.
They are pissed off about this and are frustrated that reform is taking so
long and that meanwhile the polluting bastards get to continue their crime.
So the ELF and ALF take it into their own hands to inflict revenge. I don't
see anything wrong with that. What some call 'terrorist actions' by
'subversive factions', others might call a war. And wars are fought all the
time for lesser goals.
And they haven't even killed anyone.
The world needs radicals, if only to get the moderates to move.
Ironboots you're making it very hard for me to keep up the fascade of a
level headed fluffy duffy "lets talk" vegan, you know. *ungh*
OKAY OKAY YOU SMARMY BASTARD I USED TO DRAW ALF AD POSTERS IN A SEATTLE
CRUSTY KID ZINE IN HIGHSCHOOL YOU WIN YOU WIN!
Blowing things up is wrong. wrong wrong wrong. You realise now how many
years of self work you've undone? I'm going to be in front of a mirror
snapping myself with a rubberband and repeating that for HOURS. thx.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
Kira
Member
Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 10/12/2003 at 02:25 AM
Hahaha...the truth comes out!
In some weird way I totally agree with what both groups do. I'm not sure
how effective it is for enacting change (I think PETA has had more success
with their tactics) but it certainly does get attention.
My philosophy is, if enough single people start dropping meat out of their
diets eventually the business world will bend. After all, you can't make
money when people aren't buying your products. It's that whole "the
custormer is always right" thing. Just look at how all the fast food
restaurants are scrambling to make "healty" menus now that it is catching
on with lots of consumers. Business thrives on money, which thrives on a
culture of spending. Change that culture and the busineses will either
follow or go under.
____________________ Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic
Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 10/12/2003 at 06:17 AM
Somehow burning down dealerships that sell SUVs doesn't exactly like the
best way to get people to listen to you as a logical caring person. Any
attention these groups get is the kind of attention a cop gives a criminal
in a hostage cituation, "We''l talk if you let them all go and drop your
weapons." and then of course the cops beat the shit out of them. As a
peaceful protestor at numerous events, I can say that violence will only
gather negative media, attention, and treatment to you and your message,
generally regarding you as a trouble maker rather that an activist. No one
cares about about a bunch of terrorists that work in cell operations,
lacking a central message, proper representation, or an organized system of
display and media attention. They are angry, confused, anarchy obsessed
recklooses, and should be treated as such.
____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner
Xaoswolf
Fanatic
Posts: 463 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 10/12/2003 at 09:23 PM
animal liberators winding up killing animals all the time. What about the
recent mink fiasco where they let a thousand mink go, only to have them
attack everything in a ten mile radius, following which, they proceeded to
cannibalise each other?
And ALF and ELF may claim that they cause no deaths in their bombings, but
do they really know if any animals are in the building? How many mice or
rats die when they burn down a McDonalds? What about cats in the alley
behind the store when a firebomb goes off? Birds nesting in the roof, what
are they going to do?
Now remember, before you say anything like, "You have to break a few
Tofu-eggs to make an omlette." These are the same people that are up in
arms anytime the US bombs something and a civilian gets so much as a head
ache from the blast.
That's also ignoring whatever pollutants are released when you burn down a
medical testing facility...
____________________ Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap.
Does that make me a bad person?
Grendel
Occasional Poster
Posts: 40 Registered: 10/12/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 10/12/2003 at 10:17 PM
We had an episode in Norway were an anti fur group released a lot of
animals into the wild. Now these animals had grown up in cages, and did not
have the experience needed to survive in the wild.
I'm not saying that it was good for them to be in those cages, but was it
better for the animals to be released into the wild?
Frankly I think not. since these animals had NO idea how to find food,
shelter, or to look out for predators and cars most of them died.
And being put into the wild with no idea how to survive is a worse thing
than being in a caged you've been in since birth.
Again I do not think keeping animals in a cage is a good thing to do, but
releasing animals who have lived their whole life in a cage into the wild
is an even crueler act, if you ask me.
evil... is not a matter of degrees... and some of them have filled people
in their terrorist actions
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Kira
Member
Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 11/12/2003 at 01:06 AM
I guess it all depends on your definition of terrorism and violence. In
order for me to consider a crime violent it has to encompass some kind of
intent to physically harm a person, animal, etc. It's probably a problem of
semantics. I generally wouldn’t consider losing control of your car and
killing someone in an accident an act of violence. But running a person
down with your car (like I sometimes want to do on campus) would definitely
be an act of violence.
Terrorism is another one. I have a hard time viewing graffiti or stealing
(even animals) as terrorism. To me these acts qualify as vandalism or theft
at best. Blowing shit up, sure...mostly because it is inherently dangerous,
and especially is terrorism if it is done to invoke fear of further harm.
Blowing stuff up is also a major felony, I'm sure. So if you believe in
non-violence and law of the state (as in, right to property), then you
should be content to know if an ELF/ALF member is caught they'll be
punished. Perhaps spend your time trying to convert ALF and ELF members to
non-violent (by your definition, not mine) tactics, by using non-violent
tactics yourself. But I wouldn’t expect any love for it, just like anyone
else who tries to convince a person/group of people that what they think is
best.
And just further playing devil's advocate, I did notice that the ALF is now
releasing "liberated" animals into special rescue sanctuaries and not into
the wild.
____________________ Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 11/12/2003 at 01:11 PM
I wonder what is the implications of an animal sanctuary accepting the poor
animals.. Could they get slapped for accepting stolen 'property'?
Bettie: I'm just stating the facts... I know its hard to keep a level head.
The only thing that keeps me from staging a one-man riot is the belief that
we humans will destroy our society soon enough... maybe before the end of
this century. Hopefully.
Kira, TECHNICALLY it is terrorism, because they use threats and fear
tactics as well as property destruction to achieve a goal or make a point.
And ironboots I know you're just stating facts
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
BlueLinn
Fanatic
Posts: 246 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 14/1/2004 at 05:13 PM
I think I got stuck on that web link... funny shit...
____________________ When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?