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Author: Subject: ELF, and I ain't talkin santa

Fanatic





Posts: 463
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/12/2003 at 10:55 PM
A question.

ELF and ALF, groups of people committing violent crimes in the name of the environment and animals.

Are they no better than abortion clinic bombers, or are they the saviors of man kind?

Will their efforts lead us to glorious vegan communism or will it have the same effects as Al Queda's attempt to make us all muslims?

 

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Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap. Does that make me a bad person?

 
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Administrator




Posts: 317
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 11:06 PM
I think this link needs to exist in this thread too.

Start here:
http://flem.keenspace.com/d/20000508.html

Then keep reading and clicking next, until a few pages after he screws the pooch.

 

____________________
So Sayeth Me

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 11:06 PM
Evil, done in the name of good... is still evil...

 

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The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 11:07 PM
Well I don't remember Elf or Alf taking anyone's life just lots of vandalism, but tis a narrow path they walk.



....me bad grammar fix...

[Edited on 12/9/2003 by dead-cell]

 

____________________
co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 01:45 AM
I don't think they're any better than abortion clinic bombers, they're still a form of terrorist and they give a lot of rational vegetarians/vegans a really bad rap. Of course they say we make vegetarians/vegans look like pussies, but eh.... Tho being biased I have to say that they have the balls to do what I WANNA do in the back of my head, I still think it's wrong and would never do it myself or necessarily condone their actions.

And I haven't heard of them resulting in a human death, but they quite frequently do massive amounts of property damage, blowing labs and burning housing developments as they're being built.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 12:30 PM
As far as I have been able to tell, Peta and the other things I belong to do not preach or condone any form of violence to accomplish a goal. I've been very selective in what I currently support and I would sever all ties with any group I felt went against my own personal feelings on the matter. ELF and ALF are violent groups and I would never want to have Peta in the same category as them. If it did (or anything for that matter that I belonged to) then I'd drop them as fast I could say Bye.

Unfortunately there are some people who do belong to Peta who've gotten hand-out materials that are meant to be given to adults...not children...and given them to children...successfully scaring them out of their minds and pissing off their parents. My mother in law saw some of these people handing them out at an elementary school. There are age-appropriate material that can be given to teachers to use in class...at their own discretion...since I think what those few did was wrong.

There are billboards that do hammer home a point...but they are usually not extremely graphic...they may show some not very nice scenes or cartoons...by they are more to a point than gory...or at least within what is allowed by local areas, etc.

It's the same as in any group...you will have people within a group...not the group itself...who will go radical on something...they are not expressing the group concensus when they do so...unless the group itself is a violent, etc. type of group. I don't feel like I'm forced to defend Peta as a non-violent group, as I'm certain that any informed person would already know that the group itself is not a violent group by any means. I am expressing my desire that if any one does seriously find themselves questioning Peta protesters as to their motives, they will find that the non-violent protestors are the ones that are doing things in the name of Peta...while any one doing anything more than non-violent is doing their own thing entirely.

I feel pretty certain that you could probably find a few Peta members who would condone things that I would never under any circumstances condone, but again that is simply their view...not every single person within a charitable organization's membership.

And lastly, Peta jokes are funny...sick and funny.

 

____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 01:26 PM
They're no better than terrorists...as much as I hate the pollution in the air, I still drive a 35 mile/gallon car and they probably still drive SUV's...

*cant say much right now - trying to get over her bronchidus...*

 

Member




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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 02:23 PM
quote:
A question.

ELF and ALF, groups of people committing violent crimes in the name of the environment and animals.

Are they no better than abortion clinic bombers, or are they the saviors of man kind?



Woah, kind of a stretch there. Abortion clinic bombers kill people. The ALF is "an international underground movement of compassionate people who work anonymously to rescue animals from places of abuse, and to cause financial damage to animal abuse industries through a strategy of non-violent property destruction. In the twenty years of ALF actions there has never been any injury or death caused to any animal or human in the course of their actions" according the the ALF Press Office. All I could find record of was damage to property, granted some pretty severe, and financial damages to companies by way of stealing ("liberating") animals.

The ELF guidelines are similar:
* To inflict economic damage on those profiting from the destruction and exploitation of the natural environment.
* To reveal and educate the public on the atrocities committed against the earth and all species that populate it.
* To take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and non-human.

So, yeah...they're committing crimes all right. But it seems like neither group has ever intentionally harmed a person. Therefore, the crimes are non-violent and a poor comparison to clinic bombers and Al-Queda. No doubt that some of the people involved in either organization are nut-bar fanatics...but I can't put them on the same level as killers.

But at the same time I will also say it is hard to feel sorry for a lot of the people/organizations they target.

 

____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:20 PM
See Kira I'm kind of with you on that side of the issue. My main problem is that I DON"T feel sorry, it's not hard for me at all. I wouldn't participate, as I am insofar a law abiding citizen, but unless they're harming people or animals I kind of just look the other way. YES most of those people are nuts, I've known a couple in my life (and not just nuts when referring to animal liberation, but just flat out got their hamsters running in reverse).

I think what statement I agree with is that they ARE technically terrorists, and are using the same "tactics" as al queida and abortion clinic bombers only they aren't using humans as their targets. The ELF will GLADLY reiterate that they are eco-terrorists, as they use fear and non lethal destruction to stop an action or make the land developer think twice.

I agree with child friendly materials on the animal rights bit, but for the most part the pamphlets ARE so graphic to simply make the largest shock impression on the person reading as possible to make a dent in a lifetime of a brainwashed mentality that animals are unfeeling, unthinking, and that cows are HAPPY to be hamburgers. You see it all the time, a smiling cow cartoon holding a hamburger or steak, or in an apron in front of a bbq. We all grew up with the grocery store image of the happy dairy cow, or those STUPID FUCKING Dairygold "Helper cows" with their holiday helpers the "Dairy Fairies". If you ask a kid where milk comes from, they say cow. When you ask them WHY cows make milk, they say because that's where it comes from. Making them understand that their milk is a byproduct of pregnancy and childbirth, and then make them question WHERE that calf goes or become is simple RESPONSIBILITY. Hell half the ADULTS I know get green and refuse to believe me when I tell them what gelatin is!

I pick up several copies of the "why vegetarian" pamphlets every time I go eat at bamboo garden in seattle, and I give them to people who are either too retarded to understand WHY I don't eat meat, or those who want to know more about it, or about the animal industry if they're on the fence about even buying free range. It's graphic because it has to be.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 10/12/2003 at 01:42 AM
I agree with Kira here, but I sympathize a bit more with the ELF and ALF.
There's millions of animals kept in tiny cages, prodded and tortured; there's millions of tons of toxic chemicals being created and sent out into the world; and thousands of acres of wild lands are being cleared to make way for suburbs, cattle ranches, and oil drilling operations.
They are pissed off about this and are frustrated that reform is taking so long and that meanwhile the polluting bastards get to continue their crime. So the ELF and ALF take it into their own hands to inflict revenge. I don't see anything wrong with that. What some call 'terrorist actions' by 'subversive factions', others might call a war. And wars are fought all the time for lesser goals.
And they haven't even killed anyone.

The world needs radicals, if only to get the moderates to move.

 

____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 10/12/2003 at 02:01 AM
Must....resist...urge...to blow...shit...up...

Ironboots you're making it very hard for me to keep up the fascade of a level headed fluffy duffy "lets talk" vegan, you know. *ungh*

OKAY OKAY YOU SMARMY BASTARD I USED TO DRAW ALF AD POSTERS IN A SEATTLE CRUSTY KID ZINE IN HIGHSCHOOL YOU WIN YOU WIN!

Blowing things up is wrong. wrong wrong wrong. You realise now how many years of self work you've undone? I'm going to be in front of a mirror snapping myself with a rubberband and repeating that for HOURS. thx.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Member




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Status: Offline

  posted on 10/12/2003 at 02:25 AM
Hahaha...the truth comes out!

In some weird way I totally agree with what both groups do. I'm not sure how effective it is for enacting change (I think PETA has had more success with their tactics) but it certainly does get attention.

My philosophy is, if enough single people start dropping meat out of their diets eventually the business world will bend. After all, you can't make money when people aren't buying your products. It's that whole "the custormer is always right" thing. Just look at how all the fast food restaurants are scrambling to make "healty" menus now that it is catching on with lots of consumers. Business thrives on money, which thrives on a culture of spending. Change that culture and the busineses will either follow or go under.

I would however gladly join the BLF. They only harm billboards. http://www.billboardliberation.com/

 

____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2003 at 06:17 AM
Somehow burning down dealerships that sell SUVs doesn't exactly like the best way to get people to listen to you as a logical caring person. Any attention these groups get is the kind of attention a cop gives a criminal in a hostage cituation, "We''l talk if you let them all go and drop your weapons." and then of course the cops beat the shit out of them. As a peaceful protestor at numerous events, I can say that violence will only gather negative media, attention, and treatment to you and your message, generally regarding you as a trouble maker rather that an activist. No one cares about about a bunch of terrorists that work in cell operations, lacking a central message, proper representation, or an organized system of display and media attention. They are angry, confused, anarchy obsessed recklooses, and should be treated as such.

 

____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard. Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat anything.”
Faulkner

 

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  posted on 10/12/2003 at 09:23 PM
animal liberators winding up killing animals all the time. What about the recent mink fiasco where they let a thousand mink go, only to have them attack everything in a ten mile radius, following which, they proceeded to cannibalise each other?

And ALF and ELF may claim that they cause no deaths in their bombings, but do they really know if any animals are in the building? How many mice or rats die when they burn down a McDonalds? What about cats in the alley behind the store when a firebomb goes off? Birds nesting in the roof, what are they going to do?

Now remember, before you say anything like, "You have to break a few Tofu-eggs to make an omlette." These are the same people that are up in arms anytime the US bombs something and a civilian gets so much as a head ache from the blast.

That's also ignoring whatever pollutants are released when you burn down a medical testing facility...

 

____________________
Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap.
Does that make me a bad person?

 

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  posted on 10/12/2003 at 10:17 PM
We had an episode in Norway were an anti fur group released a lot of animals into the wild. Now these animals had grown up in cages, and did not have the experience needed to survive in the wild.
I'm not saying that it was good for them to be in those cages, but was it better for the animals to be released into the wild?
Frankly I think not. since these animals had NO idea how to find food, shelter, or to look out for predators and cars most of them died.
And being put into the wild with no idea how to survive is a worse thing than being in a caged you've been in since birth.

Again I do not think keeping animals in a cage is a good thing to do, but releasing animals who have lived their whole life in a cage into the wild is an even crueler act, if you ask me.

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 11/12/2003 at 12:14 AM
evil... is not a matter of degrees... and some of them have filled people in their terrorist actions

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Member




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  posted on 11/12/2003 at 01:06 AM
I guess it all depends on your definition of terrorism and violence. In order for me to consider a crime violent it has to encompass some kind of intent to physically harm a person, animal, etc. It's probably a problem of semantics. I generally wouldn’t consider losing control of your car and killing someone in an accident an act of violence. But running a person down with your car (like I sometimes want to do on campus) would definitely be an act of violence.

Terrorism is another one. I have a hard time viewing graffiti or stealing (even animals) as terrorism. To me these acts qualify as vandalism or theft at best. Blowing shit up, sure...mostly because it is inherently dangerous, and especially is terrorism if it is done to invoke fear of further harm. Blowing stuff up is also a major felony, I'm sure. So if you believe in non-violence and law of the state (as in, right to property), then you should be content to know if an ELF/ALF member is caught they'll be punished. Perhaps spend your time trying to convert ALF and ELF members to non-violent (by your definition, not mine) tactics, by using non-violent tactics yourself. But I wouldn’t expect any love for it, just like anyone else who tries to convince a person/group of people that what they think is best.

And just further playing devil's advocate, I did notice that the ALF is now releasing "liberated" animals into special rescue sanctuaries and not into the wild.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2003 at 01:11 PM
I wonder what is the implications of an animal sanctuary accepting the poor animals.. Could they get slapped for accepting stolen 'property'?

Bettie: I'm just stating the facts... I know its hard to keep a level head. The only thing that keeps me from staging a one-man riot is the belief that we humans will destroy our society soon enough... maybe before the end of this century. Hopefully.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2003 at 10:35 PM
Kira, TECHNICALLY it is terrorism, because they use threats and fear tactics as well as property destruction to achieve a goal or make a point. And ironboots I know you're just stating facts

 

____________________
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  posted on 14/1/2004 at 05:13 PM
I think I got stuck on that web link... funny shit...

 

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