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Author: Subject: veggie tables

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 01:10 PM
i wanted to post something concerning this topic because the subject came up on a certain e-group i am involved with. this is not intended to start a war between vegans or carnivores. ......................i was a vegittarian once upon a time until i had my second child naturally and almost bled to death due to severe anemia, it was something that made me rethink my lifestyle . i must add that i was not able to produce enough breast milk either because of it. okay here we go, i have had discussions with other vegans /vegittarians and they have a tendency to place animals above humans, i used to be no different, i used to be a member of peta in highschool until they said they wanted to go into the woods and become human shields to prevent hunters from shooting deer. that was it for me. i thought that was unproductive. so i quit. .........moving along, i have had certain conversations with vegans that i know who believe that all meat eaters should be shot, while this does not speak for all, it motivated me to post this. have fun kiddies but be respectful of eachother, i am not the boss of any of you, but it would be nice if this was handled without anger and discussed with understanding, i personally believe that people should live their lives in a way that works best for them. what i am trying to understand is why the militants in this group are unable to live and let live with other humans, and why does peta seem to resemble fanatical christianity these days?

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 03:53 PM
Start here:
http://flem.keenspace.com/d/20000508.html

Then keep reading and clicking next, until a few pages after he screws the pooch.

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 06:37 PM
Ariadne: I'd like to start off by stating that I do agree with the idea of letting people make up their own minds. I'd also like to point out that I am a member of Peta myself, and the issues that I chose to participate in and support personally are based on my own decisions and not what I am led to do by someone else or a group. I also find a lot of stuff...like the link Devin listed above to be funny cuz it's meant to be taken as a joke...and maybe I just have a sick sense of humor *shrugs*. This should hopefully make you aware that not all of the current animal rights activists you'll encounter are part of a herd mentality.

I am a vegetarian myself. I do consume things that contain some milk and egg products. Several animal rights groups that I participate in do encourage a vegan lifestyle, but most of the people I have encountered regarding the issue are simply happy for any form of awareness by humans that animals have feelings and hurt when injured.

My personal form of participation always stays within what is legal, and I personally do not cross any lines between what is considered legal and illegal in regards to animal rights. I do understand that some people have a much more extreme way of expressing their feelings in regards to animal rights. What I chose to do is more in the form of discussing things with people when they seem interested, which is more often than not that I am approached and asked questions by curious people. It seems that I encounter far more people who at least realize that animals have feelings and feel pain, than those who don't care and have no regard whatsoever. Most people seem genuinely shocked at treatment animals receive in slaughterhouses and other situations.

What I spend most of my time doing to participate, other than through donations when I can afford them, is to write letters to certain companies, politicians, and sign petitions...all of the items I chose to write about are the ones that I feel strongly about. I also put stickers on mail, give people gifts that encourage environmental awareness...when I can... and similar types of things to help encourage those who see those things to realize that animals suffer in many different types of situations.

I do not ever try to make people I am eating with, to go out of their way to make sure I have something to eat, I also do not sit there pitching a fit about them if they eat meat. However, I do expect them to respect my right to not eat meat if I chose not to, and I expect them not to belittle me or try to encourage me to just try it. I don't force soy on them and I expect meat not to be forced on me. My friends and family are respectful of me in such situations, and I believe it is because I respect their views as their views and not mine.

I also do not think the world is ready for everyone to become an overnight vegetarian or vegan. Some people's bodies really are not suited for it, such as in the case of Ariadne. I understand this, and I believe it's because at this point in time, only some people are physically properly suited to be fully vegetarian or vegan. There may come a time that humans evolve so that more will be better suited for that lifestyle, but in the meantime my main concerns are that I do my part...however small that might be...to make those I can...without scaring them away by chasing them around...aware of situations by answering questions when I encounter someone who asks if I'm a vegetarian or if the subject comes up...and by participating in causes that I feel strongly about...by complaining when I see someone beating an animal...by encouraging humane methods of treatment of animals being used for food...and by rescuing and trying to return a lost animal...and other things of that sort...and by allowing people to be exposed to a vegetarian's views and coming to their own terms as to what is right for them.

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 09:28 PM
I think we've beat this topic to death here (no pun intended) in the past. But I have a different angle than I did back then, so I'll comment. In July I read Fast Food Nation and it was one of those turning point moments of my life. For years I ate meat, probably not as often as most people, but I still ate it. After I read the book, I suddenly understood exactly what I was supporting every single time I forked over money for meat. By consuming most meat you're padding the pockets of an industry that exploits people (especially lower income workers and immigrants), tortures animals, endangers your health (via spread of bacteria at mass slaughter houses), screws the environment, and has nearly put the American farmer out of business.

So, I gave up eating meat. And have made a concentrated effort to lessen consumption of other animal products (pretty easy when you don't like milk or cheese to begin with) or substitute with something else. I suppose if I could buy meat from a local farmer/hunter I wouldn't be so ethically opposed to eating it. But the thing is, I really don't miss it. Giving it up has forced me to expand what I'm willing to try, and I've discovered so many new great things since then that I don't feel any lack. Plus, when I sit down to hang out with my parrot I don't have to think "if you were a chicken I would kill you and eat you."

Do I think everyone should do this? Well, yes...but only in the sense that I believe everyone should be more conscious of what they consume. I don't consider myself an animal rights wacko by any means, and I don't question our place in the food chain. However, I have a hard time believing the human body was made to digest large quantities of meat three times a day (If you don't agree, look at the diet of similar primates like chimps or bonobos). Obviously we can live without it altogether, if you're willing to invest a little extra time in making sure your body is getting the nutrients it needs. Which really ALL people should do.

Ultimately it's for each person to decide. I would never force it on someone who didn't ask about it. But I have a feeling someone will go spouting off about vegans/vegetarians being preachy. So let me add that I've been both a meat eater and a vegetarian now, and I've had to defend my choice NOT to eat meat way more than I ever had to defend choosing to eat it. It seems like every meal I share with someone who isn't a vegetarian I find myself explaining why I'm not going to get sick, and yes, chicken is meat but bread isn't. I think some people really do feel guilty about eating it, and so they're not really trying to convice me that it's ok to eat meat, they're trying to convince themselves. I don't understand how it would hurt them to give it a try, instead of closing down and getting defensive. But, I usually keep my mouth shut.

My philosophy is do what you will, but let's be respectful of each other's choices. I'll have a sense of humor about broccoli screaming, and you have a sense of humor about how good your ecoli burger tastes.

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 09:43 PM
nice link, devin, that hit the spot..................
anyway, lady c. i see where you are coming from, i almost went to work at a slaughterhouse once, i was just looking for a job, i really didn't know what i was applying for until my orientation, i saw pigs being slaughtered on an assembly line and i almost tossed, i did walk out though, i still hold certain beliefs and do not see any reason for the senseless torture of any life , or any species, whatsoever, i actually respect all life. that was why i refused to become a human shield for a few hunters, what would that really accomplish? it definitely wouldn't stop people from hunting. i am not a typical carnivore, i respect that an animal was killed for my nourishment but i think to waste meat like so many corporations do is a sin, because they are throwing what was once alive away, i still hold my ethics, i just hate meeting those token few that believe the world would be a better place if nobody ate meat, it is really unrealistic, not to mention that the earth couldn't feed all of us and the animals too. animals tend to reproduce faster than we do,it is just a fact. i still use cruelty free products , despise the fur trade and all that . to me , when i meet these people, this is the right mission, protecting animals from cruelty or extinction is really worth pursuing. i am only talking about those that would kill people if they had to etc, they are no better than any fanatical christian bombing an abortion clinic, if people are standing up for the ethical treatment of animals i think that ethical first is a good place to start.. more people may be more willing to see the light if peta would keep the focus on the things that would really make a difference.i f i have said something more than once or have been redundant in any way i am sorry, it is sleepy time for ariadne.

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 09:45 PM
i thought i logged in, that was mezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 10:02 PM
Ariadne, I'm thinking you meant me when you said lady c.? I think that's exactly right about people crossing lines from meaning well and trying to change things in peaceful ways, and instead becoming murderers and such in the name of whatever their chosen cause is. I think it's horribly insane when someone blows up an abortion clinic or if someone were to do the same to a slaughterhouse, etc. Violence oftentimes only begets more violence. It's one thing to step in when an action is taking place that can be stopped, such as stopping someone who is beating an animal, but it's another when a place is legally allowed to do whatever they are doing and someone blows it up. That's why I try to do things in my own way, and hope that somewhere along the lines it makes a difference.

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 10:51 PM
i am so sorry, damn i really am tired, i was reading another forum earlier, either that or i have brain damage

[Edited on 9/12/2003 by ariadne]

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 11:08 PM
*sticks his fingers in his ears and runs in a big circle screaming... I CANNOT HEAR THIS!!!!!

Feral

 

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  posted on 8/12/2003 at 11:24 PM
Is fucking carno really any different from fucking fagot?







There thats a question to ponder.
....whoops I should get some sleep.

[Edited on 12/9/2003 by dead-cell]

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 12:09 AM
lol...yeah, I was gonna say that I don't typically touch on stuff like that. While I appreciate the whole concept of vegetarianism, I'm not in a spot where I can afford the stuff to make such a lifestyle work for me. I don't eat meat often, and I don't condone forcing one's beliefs regarding meat consumption on someone else.

I don't like the idea of eating plants of the off-chance that they can feel pain as well, but what does that leave us to eat? Dirt?

As for the things that groups like PETA do, well, that's no better than the people who bomb abortion clinics to protest abortion being legal. Once violence has been chosen to try to make a point, the point has already been lost. There is much hypocrisy in harming another person to protest harm done to animals, just as there is much hypocrisy in murdering someone in the name of "protecting" unborn children.

I second Ariadne on that link, Devin. I fell out of my chair more than once, laughing.

And yes, I am fucked up.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 01:40 AM
Dead cell: Are you asking if carnivores are any different from a bundle of sticks, a cigarette butt, or the overused "insult" that low brow ignorant douchebags use?
In all three cases I'd have to say "yes" as bundles of sticks and cigarette butts lack mouths to eat meat and CAN"T be carnivorous, and I know homosexuals that are vegetarians and I know homosexuals that are carnivores.

Just curious.

Anyway.....

I'm in the same category as Kira and the others whereas I AM a vegan/vegetarian, but unless someone wants to hear or asks I'm not pushy on it. I'm a tad more on the mouthy side than they are tho, because I swear to god if you push me, heckle me, badger me, or pick a fight with me on it I'll beat you into the fucking ground until you scream uncle. I'll call you names and I'll call your momma fat. BUT the few people I've ever done that to STARTED it. I tried to have a reasonable conversation (that they started) and they refused, so little nice and respectful vegan gloves off.

My friends eat meat, my whole family eats meat, I don't bother them they dont' bother me and tho they make efforts to let me know what is "safe" to eat at family get togethers, they know it's not expected of them and that I"m happy to bring my own.

ANd Ariadne, you've experienced complications that most non vegetarian women have with pregnancy/childbirth. My sister has had two kids and her milk supply wasn't enough either, same with my sister in law and some other mothers I know. It totally depends on your diet, because lets face it, unless you're making SURE you're eating right yes, it can be way unhealthy. I know people who 'went vegetarian" for a week and quit from "hunger/energy lows" because all they ate was salad and top ramen. And I would watch what doctors tell you too, because tell most of them you don't eat meat or dairy or GOD forbid you don't eat either they'll pump you full of bs right quick. Anemia can be a chronic problem in carnivores too, and it's not lack of meat perse, it's lack of IRON, which is found in a more readibly absorbable form in spinnach, caulliflower, and broccoli. You might have been eating healthy but you might not have been eating RIGHT. If you're prone to anemia like I am, then you would have had to double your heavy greens.
There ARE people who's bodies have a genetic need for things found in flesh, but they are rare when you extract from the total those psychologically addicted to it. But they do exist.

And feral.....YOU DO WANNA HEAR IT YOU DO YOU DO ADMIT IT. YOOOOU LOOOOOOVE IT.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 03:09 AM
bettie: *fingers jammed in his ears still* lalalalalalalala... I'm not getting into this...LALALALA

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 08:35 AM
betti , i understand where you are coming from, but i was eating right at the time of my second pregnancy, i was on iron pills, i am usually not prone to anemia at all, just during this one pregnancy, it is normal for women to become anemic during pregnancy in the last trimester , i was the entire time. ..........before i had my last baby i did research as to why i almost bled to death in childbirth, i found out that what happened to me happens quite alot in india where cows are never consumed, many women have died in india, during child birth because they do not consume much red meat there, cows are sacred, and all that.now i am not saying that what happened to me could happen to any vegittarian, i am saying that mine was an extreme case, just like the cases in india, not enough iron in the blood can thin the blood and during childbirth women can die because of the bloods inability to clot normally so women can bleed to death because of severe anemia.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:32 AM
Ok... I am getting into this...

Simply put, physically designed to be omnivorous... it is how we are built... philosophically, I don't argue with nature... I allow that animal proteins ar enot necessry to live, but that is a choice that people must make... without the advent of chemistry... it would not be possible... but everyone MUST choose

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:24 PM
Oh ariadne, I'm not doubting you, I just wasn't sure if you'd done your research and if you were one of those people who take everything their doctor says at face value. I'm a diehard skeptic of the medical field after all the bullshit michael went through with his lung, yadda yadda. I'm glad you did your research, because my sister in law developed a stomach turning adversity to meat during her pregnancy and didn't eat ANY, and her delivery was normal. Good on ya lady, for actually taking the time to learn.


Feral: I TOLD YOUR ASS YOU'D GET INTO THIS NAH NAH NAH NAH NAAAH NAAAAAAAH!!

 

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  posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:53 PM
Bettie: *grins* I guess you are too smart for us all

 

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  posted on 10/12/2003 at 01:25 AM
I guess I'm on Feral's side.
I'm a vegetarian because of the factory conditions that most farm animals are brought up these days.
-But- I agree that meat has a place in a human's diet. I'll still eat meat if someone hunted for it or it was a free range animal. Of course, this stuff is kinda expensive, so I just settle for vegetarian.

Man, I've got to get online more... All these posts...

 

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  posted on 13/12/2003 at 04:45 PM
Just posting a corollary to what I posted earlier about laughing at the comic: I do not condone cruelty to animals. What is amusing about the comic is the meeting of the two extremee. In the hypocrisy lies the humor.

And yes, I am still fucked up.

But anyway, back to the subject at hand:

Humans were designed to be omnivores, true; however, we were also designed to hunt down our meat and grow our veggies, and its' extremely rare that anyone does the former, though the latter is quite popular. I don't know what the equivalent would be in modern times; perhaps meat eaters should do ten laps before buying a steak. I don't know.

I'm still of the opinion that plants can feel, too, so I'm okay with being an omnivore. It still beats eating dirt.

 

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  posted on 13/12/2003 at 11:25 PM
We'll I figured it would come. A forum I had to post on, and a comment most people will hate.

I hunt. I hunt a lot. I kill what I eat, and eat what I kill, and if I don't hunt, I don't eat meat. I despise the meat industry, because animals are raised for death, and have no chance of anything but. I hate it because animals are treated like nothing; not living creatures, but merely a commodity that needs to be shot, blead, and butchered.

I am what is called a primordial hunter. I knap flint into an arow head, attach it to a arrow, i feather it. I use an english long bow, made of wood and sinew, and I stalk a deer, sometimes for hours. When I can get within 20 yards or so, escaping it's superior hearing and smell, I let fly, without a chance to shoot again. And then If I succeed, I butcher it by hand, and waste nothing, not even the bones. They make good tools and crafts. So you see, I have as LAdyCygnet has suggested, gotten back to my roots, and go through great lengths and pains to replicate an extremely difficult time period, so I can live. It is as much of a hobby as it is sustanance.

I assume many will dislike what I do. I know Betty does, we've talked about it before. I understand where she comes from, and agree with her point. An animals death is pretty unecessary, and often cruel. I've strived to limit the gap between sustanance and enjoyment, and refuse to particicpate in a FAR, FAR crueler form of animal butchering and killing. I have to run through forest for my food, and have broken an arm stalking a deer, and have cut and bruised myself heavily, so I can eat. If thats wrong, I'm sorry, but it makes sense to me.

-Squire

 

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