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ariadne
Member   Posts: 107 Registered: 26/9/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/12/2003 at 01:10 PM |
| i wanted to post something concerning this topic because the subject came
up on a certain e-group i am involved with. this is not intended to start a
war between vegans or carnivores. ......................i was a vegittarian
once upon a time until i had my second child naturally and almost bled to
death due to severe anemia, it was something that made me rethink my
lifestyle . i must add that i was not able to produce enough breast milk
either because of it. okay here we go, i have had discussions with other
vegans /vegittarians and they have a tendency to place animals above
humans, i used to be no different, i used to be a member of peta in
highschool until they said they wanted to go into the woods and become
human shields to prevent hunters from shooting deer. that was it for me. i
thought that was unproductive. so i quit. .........moving along, i have had
certain conversations with vegans that i know who believe that all meat
eaters should be shot, while this does not speak for all, it motivated me
to post this. have fun kiddies but be respectful of eachother, i am not the
boss of any of you, but it would be nice if this was handled without anger
and discussed with understanding, i personally believe that people should
live their lives in a way that works best for them. what i am trying to
understand is why the militants in this group are unable to live and let
live with other humans, and why does peta seem to resemble fanatical
christianity these days? ____________________
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Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic   Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/12/2003 at 08:00 AM |
Living in Florida, I've had the opurtunity of one of the largest national
parks in the world, everglades national Park. It is esentially the entire
central southern tip of florida, encompasing the vast and "generally"
uninhabitable landscape of the florida everglades and the flats. I say
generally because as we speak, acres upon acres of everglades are being
drained and paved. Not in the park mind you, but on the encroatching area,
causing massive wildlife killoffs, and of course drastic changes in the
rest of the everglades.
When you boat up a channel in the flats, and cruise through the glades, it
fills you with such a joy and wonder, I litteraly can't describe it. It is
DEVOID of humanity, human sound, sound of any kind mostly, ecept birds and
insects, and is so huge it boggles the minds. The flats are equally
beautiful; a unique and beautiful stretch of ocean off the tip of florida,
they are giant stretches of sea grass under a foot to 10 inches of crystal
clear water, where manatees come to feed, where rare fish swim and breed,
jelly fish schools, horse-shoe crabs mate on the mangrove islands there,
everything is so absoltuely beautiful. a good zoo is quite a place, but if
anyone here really wants a sight that will last forever, florida is a place
unlike any other. ____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/12/2003 at 05:42 PM |
I don't like the animal theme parks OR the carnival either. Not at all.
And I grew up with the "cage/habitat" too, but the zoos in my area have
gone through great lengths to raise the money to rebuild and create an
enviroment that is not only safe and comfortable, but enjoyable to the
animal within, usually sharing it with other similar habitat species.
Woodland Park (seattle) and Point Defiance (tacoma) have come leaps and
bounds from what they were, it's amazing. But like I said by FAR the best
zoo I've visited was the SanDiego Wild Animal Park, because it's just that.
Animals in the "wild". No bars, no human interaction (they rarely even
look up to the almost silent sound of the mono way up high moving by).
There are still "bad" zoos out there, don't get me wrong, and if you go to
batworld.org you can read the horror story of bats RESCUED from actual ZOOS
and scientific learning museums. One was an elderly fruit bat who had lost
most of his teeth and so as to not disturb customers, was locked in a
storage room in a plexiglass case and forced to try to eat hard apples and
such, so essentially they were starving him to death in the dark. Another
pair of brown bats were rescued from a science museum, both underweight and
losing hair with massive tooth infections. Cruel animal captivity still
exists, but it's rarer and rarer nowadays. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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Starlight
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/12/2003 at 06:14 PM |
| The zoos you're describing Bettie sound wonderful. I didn't grow up being
taken to anything quite that nice. Most of the ones I saw had tiny
enclosures that at best mimicked a small patch of nature. The animals
didn't seem all that happy to be there either. Zoos of the sort you speak
of sound like a place to learn about the dangers humans are putting a lot
of other creatures through. I know there are many of them around, and they
seem to act in the way of a sanctuary which is a wonderful thing. My basic
disapproval of the non-sanctuary (just wanna make a buck at the animals'
expense) zoos is that of animals being captured and caged just for the sake
of human enjoyment. I have very mixed feelings on animal type theme parks.
Some seem to mean better than others, and it's one of those really gray
areas. Zoos that really try hard to help an animal survive and adapt, I
approve of those as they are serving the purpose of an animal sanctuary,
wildlife reserve and rehabilitation center. I do find that circuses with
animal acts simply have no way of meeting such a standard, and I completely
disapprove of circuses with animal "acts". ____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/12/2003 at 04:25 PM |
I'm with Bettie on the Zoo. Even though I am a meat-eater, I do think
certain species should be kept in decent numbers. The zoo's today help
protect the endangered ones. Hopefully, it will be a positive transfer
when those species can finally be released into the wild again with the
newer zoo's.
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/12/2003 at 02:29 PM |
See the zoo thing for me is double edged. I don't like the idea of nature
in boxes, but on the other hand zoos are almost NECESSARY in today's
ecological climate with species and their habitats being destroyed by
millions of acres a second. In my mind they're kind of like an arc until
people can understand the damage they've done and rebuild the enviroment.
The final outdated zoos of the past with iron bars or uncomfortable
"habitats" with children tapping on thick glass are at last being
"remodeled". Take Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium in Tacoma. I went there
as a kid, and I remember the primate cages, the tiger cages, cages cages
cages. I hadn't been there in years, and when I went back even two years
ago when the zoo was still under reconstruction, I was amazed. There were
no cages, it was all wide open habitats, walkways well separated from
"exhibits" by fences to keep tapping fingers and morons away. They're
still constructing a new asian jungle, of which I've seen the plans for,
and it looks amazing. To me they're educational, which is what people who
visit NEED. I think it's essential for children to be able to see in
person the victims of human expansion, and often the exhibits have a large
information plaque about their habitat and how it's being affected by
humans. One more disturbing display is a map of equatorial areas and a
giant countdown reeling down every second, telling that as you watch the
numbers decline, you're watching acres of rainforest and habitat being
destroyed. It was there when I was a kid, and it scared me, and I think
helped formed my beliefs towards animals today.
Zoos have steadily become less "exhibitions" than "sanctuaries" for
endangered animals, and the zoos themselves are actively nationwide through
breeding programs struggling to bring animal populations back up.
Candidates for release into the wild are trained to hunt, have minimal
human interaction, and only when they can "prove" themselves self
sufficient are they released into reserves. For some species on the brink
of extinction at the hands of humans, zoos are their only chance to
survive.
One of the best "zoos" I have ever attended is the Wild Animal Park in San
Diego. There is a small "zoo" area for animals that cannot survive in the
wild park section, but 90% of the Park is open terrain filled with a
variety of animals so they may behave as they would in the wild. Predators
are of course separated into their own paddocks by fences overgrown with
vegetation, and the park is viewable by a monorail set high along the
peremiter. No glass, no cages. Many of the animal herds there were
endangered in africa and asia, and this was their escape. I just remember
how awesome it was to be from my vantage point and watching them mill about
in the thousands of acres of land, herding, being NORMAL, not running from
tapping fingers and squealing kids.
The zoos of the past were cruel feral, but now they're more sanctuaries
than anything else. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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Starlight
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 15/12/2003 at 02:52 AM |
Personally I disapprove of "traditional" zoos (meaning the roadside kind,
and the kind the keep animals caged in tiny enclosures). Unfortunately an
animal that has lived its whole life in captivity is unable usually to
suddenly be introduced into an atmosphere where they must find their own
food entirely without human intervention and they are not necessarily ready
(even with their natural instincts) for adaptation and defending themselves
fully in the wild. In those cases that an animal is freed from a zoo (or a
circus) a more suitable environment would be an animal sanctuary or
wildlife rehabilitation center, where there is enough room to roam
freely...but they can be looked after with veterinary care and supplemental
feedings.
[Edited on 12/17/2003 by Starlight] ____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never
tried before." ~Mae West
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 15/12/2003 at 02:08 AM |
| the question, at least in my mind, when discussing animal cruelty... what
about the animals in zoos? ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2003 at 11:24 PM |
Squire and any other hunters DO know that I disaprove, but like those
raised on farms who understand the animals and their place in their life,
as well as those who only eat meat that they've hunted themselves, you hold
the highest spot of dignity on my "meat eaters" list. I don't like that an
animal still dies, but you've taken responsibility for it, are respectful
of it, and don't mindlessly live off a creature bred and raised in a box
for death on an assembly line. ANd I rarely have a problem with the meat
eater, I have a problem with the fact that they eat meat, it's not their
whole person. It's like a non smoker befriending a smoker. They might
find smoking distasteful, while the other enjoys it. One doesn't smoke in
front of the other, and the other doesn't talk shit about smoking.
My problem lies with the "ego eaters" where to them it's a sort of status.
Take for instance the overused and oh so irritating line "If meat is
murder, then murder tastes GOOOOOOD" usually followed by a grunt or a growl
of uber manliness. OR the offer to "force" me to eat meat, in which case a
good hard skullfucking is counteroffered.
If it makes anyone feel better, the super psycho veggie type that verbally
abuses total strangers or loved ones who happen to eat meat bug the fuck
out of me too. If anyone here is one of THOSE, CUT IT OUT. You make us
ALL look like psychos. ANd for christ's sake have a sense of humor about
your life. I dont' find animal deaths funny, but I can joke about my
lifestyle choice. They need to get a grip. They're no worse than callei's
bullhorn bus shamer. On that point, I agree with everyone.
And ironboots, I don't wanna be a bitch, but if you're a vegetarian, then
you're a vegetarian. GET BACK ON THE WAGON FOOL! My sister told me she
was a vegetarian and then ordered a plate of shrimp and I wanted to punch
her lights out (her reasoning is "fish don't count" which made me wanna
punch her lights out again). I won't punch YOUR lights out, but if you
only occasionally eat meat, you're still an omnivore. I know I'm bein a
snob, but what else is expected of me?
____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2003 at 01:18 PM |
| Squire I am comin over for dinner ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Kira
Member  Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2003 at 11:48 AM |
Squire, I have a hard time believing many people here would hate you for
hunting. It would make the entire meat eating population of Shmeng somewhat
hypocritical to do so.
Growing up my dad used to hunt deer with muzzleloaders. While definitely
not as difficult as a long bow, it still is a barely advanced form of gun.
Mysteriously, in at least 15 years of hunting I only remember him killing 3
deer. My theory is he is either the worst hunter ever, or really has just
been looking for an excuse to take off work and walk around in the woods
all day. He left an offering whenever he killed one, and butchered them
himself in the garage...for him it was a spiritual act, as well as a way to
provide food.
I also grew up shooting guns and doing archery, but just never had the
desire to kill a living thing. The only hunting I've ever done was with a
camera, and I'm definitely not the best at it. Killing for food I can
handle; just don't get me started on trophy hunting, or canned hunts.... ____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
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dead-cell
Fanatic  Posts: 344 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2003 at 09:09 AM |
Bettie: finally I reply back. Yes I was speaking of the insults as how some
vegetarians/ vegans can be hypocritical of choices different from their own
much like bigots.
What can I say I agree with everyone above. I myself am an omnivore. And
yes I do admire the choice that vegetarians and vegans have made; yet I
know that it’s not for me. And while my vegetarian/ vegan friends have
accepted my choice other vegans have looked at me with discuss and snob
ness. I have run into so many I can recite some of their arguments. Like: A
lion has a shorter digestive track than humans do. Which is not all that
great of an argument considering a cow has four stomachs, their argument
breaks down right there. However my vegetarian/ vegan friends have stated
they rather lead through example rather than force their belief on
anyone.
____________________
co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/12/2003 at 12:44 AM |
Well, I'm a typical omnivore, I'll admit it right there. However, I
understand the standpoint that many vegetarians and vegans take. I do not
like the factories that treat animals badly, but I have no problems with
animals dying for the sake of food...assuming that it isn't a case where a
thousand whales (endangered species) die for so-called Japanese scientists
to toss the meat in the black market or something like that. Yes, animals
are just as important as humans, but a tiger isn't going to stop from
eating me just because I have feelings...that's a bit how I take it.
I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans though...I think they are
justified in their causes. I just could not deal with the lifestyles
myself. It isn't because I think animals are lowly or anything (we're
animals too, heh), I just look at things as a life and death cycle. It's a
dog-eat-dog world; everything in nature produces things and consumes things
for the sake of survival; we'll die someday and be consumed by something as
well; etc.
The only vegs that I have problems with are the ones who will treat me like
some pestilence just for eating meat. In turn, I do not think that anyone
should force vegs to be omnivores, either.
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Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 13/12/2003 at 11:25 PM |
We'll I figured it would come. A forum I had to post on, and a comment most
people will hate.
I hunt. I hunt a lot. I kill what I eat, and eat what I kill, and if I
don't hunt, I don't eat meat. I despise the meat industry, because animals
are raised for death, and have no chance of anything but. I hate it because
animals are treated like nothing; not living creatures, but merely a
commodity that needs to be shot, blead, and butchered.
I am what is called a primordial hunter. I knap flint into an arow head,
attach it to a arrow, i feather it. I use an english long bow, made of wood
and sinew, and I stalk a deer, sometimes for hours. When I can get within
20 yards or so, escaping it's superior hearing and smell, I let fly,
without a chance to shoot again. And then If I succeed, I butcher it by
hand, and waste nothing, not even the bones. They make good tools and
crafts. So you see, I have as LAdyCygnet has suggested, gotten back to my
roots, and go through great lengths and pains to replicate an extremely
difficult time period, so I can live. It is as much of a hobby as it is
sustanance.
I assume many will dislike what I do. I know Betty does, we've talked about
it before. I understand where she comes from, and agree with her point. An
animals death is pretty unecessary, and often cruel. I've strived to limit
the gap between sustanance and enjoyment, and refuse to particicpate in a
FAR, FAR crueler form of animal butchering and killing. I have to run
through forest for my food, and have broken an arm stalking a deer, and
have cut and bruised myself heavily, so I can eat. If thats wrong, I'm
sorry, but it makes sense to me.
-Squire ____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner
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LadyCygnet
Fanatic  Posts: 287 Registered: 31/10/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 13/12/2003 at 04:45 PM |
Just posting a corollary to what I posted earlier about laughing at the
comic: I do not condone cruelty to animals. What is amusing about the
comic is the meeting of the two extremee. In the hypocrisy lies the
humor.
And yes, I am still fucked up.
But anyway, back to the subject at hand:
Humans were designed to be omnivores, true; however, we were also designed
to hunt down our meat and grow our veggies, and its' extremely rare that
anyone does the former, though the latter is quite popular. I don't know
what the equivalent would be in modern times; perhaps meat eaters should do
ten laps before buying a steak. I don't know.
I'm still of the opinion that plants can feel, too, so I'm okay with being
an omnivore. It still beats eating dirt.
____________________
"To Live is to Annoy." -- Rev. Lambert Reilly, Archabbot, St. Meinrad Abbey
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Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/12/2003 at 01:25 AM |
I guess I'm on Feral's side.
I'm a vegetarian because of the factory conditions that most farm animals
are brought up these days.
-But- I agree that meat has a place in a human's diet. I'll still eat meat
if someone hunted for it or it was a free range animal. Of course, this
stuff is kinda expensive, so I just settle for vegetarian.
Man, I've got to get online more... All these posts... ____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:53 PM |
| Bettie: *grins* I guess you are too smart for us all ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:24 PM |
Oh ariadne, I'm not doubting you, I just wasn't sure if you'd done your
research and if you were one of those people who take everything their
doctor says at face value. I'm a diehard skeptic of the medical field
after all the bullshit michael went through with his lung, yadda yadda.
I'm glad you did your research, because my sister in law developed a
stomach turning adversity to meat during her pregnancy and didn't eat ANY,
and her delivery was normal. Good on ya lady, for actually taking the time
to learn.
Feral: I TOLD YOUR ASS YOU'D GET INTO THIS NAH NAH NAH NAH NAAAH
NAAAAAAAH!! ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2003 at 11:32 AM |
Ok... I am getting into this...
Simply put, physically designed to be omnivorous... it is how we are
built... philosophically, I don't argue with nature... I allow that animal
proteins ar enot necessry to live, but that is a choice that people must
make... without the advent of chemistry... it would not be possible... but
everyone MUST choose ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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ariadne
Member Posts: 107 Registered: 26/9/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/12/2003 at 08:35 AM |
| betti , i understand where you are coming from, but i was eating right at
the time of my second pregnancy, i was on iron pills, i am usually not
prone to anemia at all, just during this one pregnancy, it is normal for
women to become anemic during pregnancy in the last trimester , i was the
entire time. ..........before i had my last baby i did research as to why i
almost bled to death in childbirth, i found out that what happened to me
happens quite alot in india where cows are never consumed, many women have
died in india, during child birth because they do not consume much red meat
there, cows are sacred, and all that.now i am not saying that what happened
to me could happen to any vegittarian, i am saying that mine was an extreme
case, just like the cases in india, not enough iron in the blood can thin
the blood and during childbirth women can die because of the bloods
inability to clot normally so women can bleed to death because of severe
anemia. ____________________
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