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Author: Subject: Hi

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  posted on 2/2/2008 at 07:04 PM
Hi, I am a new.
Here is my Dilemma.
every generation has their groups, whatever they want to call it is ok with me, It's when other groups look down on other groups that upset me, but what can I do about that?
I also have an internal conflict of being goth.
I adore goth and I want to dress the part but I am aware of the consequences. People are judgemental at least I think they are judgemental or whatever.
I haven't found anyone on the same level as me yet. It's ok for people to be on a different level than me, I understand that, It's just kind of the price I pay for being different or an individual. The price is pain and loneliness, My brother says everything happens for a reason. I hope the reason is a good one. I need a reason to keep believing that the price I pay is worth it. I think goth is worth it. But I don't know.

 

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  posted on 2/2/2008 at 07:27 PM
maybe I should started on a lighter note, like tell you I like My little ponies and Rainbow Brite.

 

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  posted on 3/2/2008 at 12:06 AM
Howdy, Passenger.

To address your first point about groups looking down on others; what makes you think "goths" don't do that as well? What makes you think we don't do that here? We do that all the time. It has to do, I think, with an internal need for security.

There are only two ways that a person can promote themselves: They can say that they are good because they embody this or that desirable quality, however this rarely happens. Far more often, they go the second route. That is, they are good because they are not members of another, less desirable group.

You say this upsets you and ask what you can do about it. The answer is: very little. You can try to coerce people into behaving themselves, but this usually only causes them to sublimate their bad behaviour into different areas. The most effective thing you can do is to lead by example. That road is a long and frustrating one, but the payoff is better.

As for your second question: is it worth it? I have no idea what you are talking about. Like many people on this site, I neither know nor care what goth culture is. We don't choose our natures; we only choose the cosmetic accroutrements that other people see. You're not going to "decide" to be this or that type of person, but you can pretentiously adopt a style that will, at the end of the day, be divisive and cause people to make your life more difficult.

It's fun to play dress up, but if they took you away and shaved your head and put you in prison rags, does it change who you are? Not a bit. It only changes what you are. The question of what you are is entirely unimportant compared to the question of who you are. Figure out the "who" and the "what" will take care of itself since the "what" is largely foisted upon us by others, anyway.

Welcome aboard, Passenger. Incidentally, I'm more of a Holly Hobbie/Smurfs/Strawberry Shortcake sort than Rainbow Brite and My Little Pony... but it's all good.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

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  posted on 3/2/2008 at 12:17 PM
To address your first point about groups looking down on others; what makes you think "goths" don't do that as well?
What makes you think we don't do that here? We do that all the time. It has to do, I think, with an internal need for security.

I am aware that goths look down on some people, Perhaps you people have look down on others, but personally I don't approve of looking down on others and I am very insecure. I think it has do with values, but I could be wrong, My parents taught me that everyone is beautiful in their own way, and that some people don't know how to act the right way or there is no right way to act, it's a matter of persepective. I have high standards and it disturbs me that I have to think of less of someone. I try to be Tolerant.of course I am human and have limited knowledge, and sometimes I misjudge the situation, and say things I don't mean when I am upset. um maybe I could inspire people to not look down on others, who knows.

There are only two ways that a person can promote themselves: They can say that they are good because they embody this or that desirable quality, however this rarely happens. Far more often, they go the second route. That is, they are good because they are not members of another, less desirable group.

that is true to my knowledge, but what's the point of being promoted? What do they win?

You say this upsets you and ask what you can do about it. The answer is: very little. You can try to coerce people into behaving themselves, but this usually only causes them to sublimate their bad behaviour into different areas. The most effective thing you can do is to lead by example. That road is a long and frustrating one, but the payoff is better.

I think alot of people don't help others because it is frustrating.
I don't know, I don't really want to change people unless they want to change.
but I don't think I am the best example.

As for your second question: is it worth it? I have no idea what you are talking about. Like many people on this site, I neither know nor care what goth culture is. We don't choose our natures; we only choose the cosmetic accroutrements that other people see. You're not going to "decide" to be this or that type of person, but you can pretentiously adopt a style that will, at the end of the day, be divisive and cause people to make your life more difficult.

yeah, that is interesting, I think I need to think about this some more,

It's fun to play dress up, but if they took you away and shaved your head and put you in prison rags, does it change who you are? Not a bit. It only changes what you are. The question of what you are is entirely unimportant compared to the question of who you are. Figure out the "who" and the "what" will take care of itself since the "what" is largely foisted upon us by others, anyway.

It depends on how you view Who you are? I always thought who I am is always changing in and out of states of mind, well other people think there is a certain part of who you are doesn't change.

thanks for helping me out

Aren't smurfs mostly a male society?

[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Passenger]

 

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  posted on 3/2/2008 at 04:31 PM
quote:
I am aware that goths look down on some people, Perhaps you people have look down on others, but personally I don't approve of looking down on others and I am very insecure. I think it has do with values, but I could be wrong, My parents taught me that everyone is beautiful in their own way, and that some people don't know how to act the right way or there is no right way to act, it's a matter of persepective. I have high standards and it disturbs me that I have to think of less of someone. I try to be Tolerant.of course I am human and have limited knowledge, and sometimes I misjudge the situation, and say things I don't mean when I am upset. um maybe I could inspire people to not look down on others, who knows.


Your approval of it doesn't enter into it. It happens. Inspiring people is all that you can do. Accept your limitations.

quote:
that is true to my knowledge, but what's the point of being promoted? What do they win?


This isn't a zero-sum arrangement. What they "win" is the feeling of security and belonging that inspired them to join whatever group they joined in the first place. It reinforces their perception of identity.

quote:
I think alot of people don't help others because it is frustrating.
I don't know, I don't really want to change people unless they want to change.
but I don't think I am the best example.


There are a lot of reasons people don't help others. It's frustrating, it's inconvenient, and many people are truly and genuinely awful people. As for changing people, you can't and you shouldn't. All you can do is inspire, per above.

quote:
It depends on how you view Who you are? I always thought who I am is always changing in and out of states of mind, well other people think there is a certain part of who you are doesn't change.


Who you are depends upon whom you ask. The Monolycus that exists and actually does things is not even close to the Monolycus that exists entirely in the heads of anyone else. You can and will be forced into fulfilling roles thrust upon you externally to a degree, but even more so if you don't have a solid sense of self. Since "self" is an illusion of cognition (I change a few chemicals or the physical structure of your brain slightly and your "self" will also change), then the only way of guarding against becoming what others demand is to have a very clear idea of what it is that you believe. It's all you can do.

quote:
Aren't smurfs mostly a male society?


Is that a problem?

 

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  posted on 3/2/2008 at 05:33 PM
Your approval of it doesn't enter into it. It happens. Inspiring people is all that you can do. Accept your limitations.

I am aware of that my approval doesn't matter to others, I am much too hard on myself, I think I should be better, not superior, just better than I was yesterday. I know I affect others or is it effect. maybe I am just messed up .



This isn't a zero-sum arrangement. What they "win" is the feeling of security and belonging that inspired them to join whatever group they joined in the first place. It reinforces their perception of identity.

Security and belonging are important I guess, I never had that. I believe you are smart, at this point I am open to information, I have no perceptions of Identity.except that I am a collection of experiences,dreams, preferences, prejudices, ect...


There are a lot of reasons people don't help others. It's frustrating, it's inconvenient, and many people are truly and genuinely awful people. As for changing people, you can't and you shouldn't. All you can do is inspire, per above.

True

Who you are depends upon whom you ask. The Monolycus that exists and actually does things is not even close to the Monolycus that exists entirely in the heads of anyone else.

that's true.

You can and will be forced into fulfilling roles thrust upon you externally to a degree, but even more so if you don't have a solid sense of self.

Perhaps, I don't know if that ever happen to me, Telling me how roles are thrust upon people? My goal is to understand people if that is possible. What are exactly these roles?
like are roles How you act toward people or is it what relationship you are to people? If it is you can either accept those roles or reject them...right?

Since "self" is an illusion of cognition (I change a few chemicals or the physical structure of your brain slightly and your "self" will also change), then the only way of guarding against becoming what others demand is to have a very clear idea of what it is that you believe. It's all you can do.

True, but to know my beliefs, this is difficult, They change with every new piece of Information, I will sit there and go back and forth, well this side has a good point but so does the other side. I really don't like being in the middle but I don't want a pick side either. Oy vai.

quote:
Aren't smurfs mostly a male society?


Is that a problem?


nope, not at all, but squrriels with mohawks make me giggle

 

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  posted on 3/2/2008 at 08:04 PM
quote:
I am aware of that my approval doesn't matter to others, I am much too hard on myself, I think I should be better, not superior, just better than I was yesterday. I know I affect others or is it effect. maybe I am just messed up .


"Affect" is the verb. If worrying about improving yourself is "messed up", there's a lot more messd up you can be. Sounds to me like you're just consolidating the data.

quote:
Security and belonging are important I guess, I never had that.


Neither has anyone else. Security is an even bigger illusion than identity is. Life is a process of making your place and finding your peace. I'm sorry to ruin the ending for you by letting you know that the big epiphany is that everyone else is as screwed up as you are and security and belonging are what you make of 'em.

quote:
I believe you are smart, at this point I am open to information, I have no perceptions of Identity.except that I am a collection of experiences,dreams, preferences, prejudices, ect...


I'm no smarter than anybody else unless the ability to eventually learn from the repetition of the same mistakes makes a person smart. In that case, I probably have some experience on you, but that comes to everyone in time whether they're looking for it or not.

quote:
Perhaps, I don't know if that ever happen to me, Telling me how roles are thrust upon people? My goal is to understand people if that is possible. What are exactly these roles? like are roles How you act toward people or is it what relationship you are to people? If it is you can either accept those roles or reject them...right?


If it's not something you've noticed by now, you probably won't notice it. It's an insidious process and it's only really remarkable when you get thrust into the role of the "bad guy". When you're forced to be the "good guy" (for example, when you called me "smart" above), you embrace the process and tend to forget that you had very little to do with it.

But it happens every day. Many people cast me into the role of the asshole, and that is exactly what they find. A good part of it is projection on their part, however a good part of it is self-fulfillment. When you approach someone, you automatically narrow their options for responding to it, usually painting them into a corner that satisfies your ideas of who they are and how they should be. We do not have the ability to simply accept or reject these roles in most cases. I could go on and on about this, but, as I said, it's an extremely murky and insidious process.

Let's just use a quick example because it demonstrates in a very accessible way what I am discussing, however. What is a "criminal"? Someone who commits crimes? No. A "criminal" is someone convicted through a judicial process. It is an entirely political term. A convict who is actually innocent of whatever crime they are accused of is every bit a "criminal". Conversely, there are many,many people who break laws and are never caught. They are not "criminals". As soon as this label is applied to someone, innocent or guilty of anything, that person's behaviour changes. They will fulfill the role that has been thrust upon them no matter who they were initially. They become what they are expected to become. This is not a voluntary transformation and they do not have the option to reject it.

In the end, circumstance dictates who we are more profoundly than aptitude.

quote:
True, but to know my beliefs, this is difficult, They change with every new piece of Information, I will sit there and go back and forth, well this side has a good point but so does the other side. I really don't like being in the middle but I don't want a pick side either. Oy vai.


Of course we are always in transition. Muhammed Ali said that "The man who views the world when he is fifty the same way he did when he was twenty has wasted thirty years of his life." Your conclusions should be flexible enough to change when the data changes. This doesn't mean, however, that you should put all of your conclusions on hold. I've never seen the object that does not eventually return to the ground when you throw it into the air, but I do not conclude that this object might exist since I haven't yet seen all objects thrown into the air. My belief is that mass responds to gravity and I will change that conclusion when and if I see evidence to the contrary.

quote:
nope, not at all, but squrriels with mohawks make me giggle


The family of Scuiridae in general makes me giggle, regardless of their hairstyle.

 

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  posted on 4/2/2008 at 11:42 AM
hmm. Again, this type of article, makes me wonder Passenger, How old are you?
If you don't mind me asking.
And Hi to you, welcome to Shmeng.

Word of advice, don't be like I was when i first got here and go around spouting off about things that you don't know, and youll get by fairly well.

Plus, since Feral isnt here to tear your conversation apart, your probably safe

My name is Liz.
Nice To meet you.

 

____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up and learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]

 

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  posted on 6/2/2008 at 02:25 PM
quote:
As soon as [a] label is applied to someone, innocent or guilty of anything, that person's behaviour changes. They will fulfill the role that has been thrust upon them no matter who they were initially. They become what they are expected to become. This is not a voluntary transformation and they do not have the option to reject it.


I'm not sure they'd have no way of rejecting the label, and I doubt you could accurately say their behaviour would change 'as soon as' the label was applied.

The being labeled and changing to fit the label, is a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? I know there's plenty of studies (see links for two examples) showing how much of an effect it can have, but I think that the more a person 'knows themselves', the easier it is for them to reject the label. EG: Wrongly convicted men who maintain their innocence until it is proven and they're released from prison. Or a person with high self esteem who can ignore petty insults.

I don't think being labeled guarantees that a person's behaviour changes to fit the expectations, although I think it would be much more likely when you're considering how individuals interact with one another rather than a generic label; 'criminal', 'goth', 'idiot'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat

 

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  posted on 6/2/2008 at 09:34 PM
quote:
I'm not sure they'd have no way of rejecting the label, and I doubt you could accurately say their behaviour would change 'as soon as' the label was applied.

The being labeled and changing to fit the label, is a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? I know there's plenty of studies (see links for two examples) showing how much of an effect it can have, but I think that the more a person 'knows themselves', the easier it is for them to reject the label. EG: Wrongly convicted men who maintain their innocence until it is proven and they're released from prison. Or a person with high self esteem who can ignore petty insults.

I don't think being labeled guarantees that a person's behaviour changes to fit the expectations, although I think it would be much more likely when you're considering how individuals interact with one another rather than a generic label; 'criminal', 'goth', 'idiot'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat


Heya, Pix! Glad to see you're still with us!

I agree with much of what you wrote... and I tried to say as much myself. It's not a single phenomenon we're talking about here (your two links provide two very different examples), so the amount of control that a person has to "accept" or "reject" these labels varies depending upon the specifics.

I think, though, you're quick to dismiss "self-fulfilling prophecy" as being negligible. To me, "self-fulfilling prohecy" is one of the more powerful forces we deal with in this universe (taking a close second to compound interest).

I did try to indicate that there were two things an individual could do to mitigate this effect. The first was "knowing themselves" (I said "knowing what they believe", but it amounts to the same thing). The second would be the extent to which they understand the process and realise that it is going on. Because it is truly insidious in some of its manifestations, this is not always easy.

This will mitigate the degree to which we are malleable to the impositions of others, but I believe it is unwarranted and arrogant to think that we can ever become entirely free of these kinds of influences. Further, it is probably asocial to do so. The individual who is least affected by the interactions they have with others might be psychotic or simply be an inveterate, obstinate ass who has arrested their own development because of their childish unwillingness to adapt themselves to changing circumstances (another way to say it would be that there are some people who can not or will not relinquish their own sense of primacy in every and all situations. These people do maintain a definite continuity in their persons but end up leading fairly worthless lives, capable of only a pretense of intimacy).

Mitigation would seem to be the ideal, I think. Awareness will lessen our vulnerability to it, and knowing ourselves might even help us to direct the process to the extent that we are able. I think that's a desirable level of autonomy for us, and striving to achieve something beyond that removes from us our ability to relate to others.

 

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  posted on 7/2/2008 at 01:36 AM
quote:
Heya, Pix! Glad to see you're still with us!


*smiles* Yeah, I stop by occasionally and check the newest threads. This time I actually thought of something to say in reply!

quote:
I think, though, you're quick to dismiss "self-fulfilling prophecy" as being negligible. To me, "self-fulfilling prophecy" is one of the more powerful forces we deal with in this universe (taking a close second to compound interest).


I didn't mean to come across as forcefully as that! ) I do believe that a self-fulfilling prophecy can have a powerful effect. My sole knowledge of the matter is drawn from A-level psychology (four years ago!) where we studied the devastating effect it can have on a child if their teachers label them as 'stupid'.

It was just the small bit I quoted that I disagreed with, partly because of how inescapable you made the process sound, and partly because of the example you gave right before it. I suggest it might be easier (although not easy) to reject a label given to you by society because of the two things you've mentioned - knowing what you believe, and understanding the process is happening. I think people are more aware of general labels applied to them than they are of personal lables, and so in a small way have more chance to recognise what is going on, and I think it might be easier for them to 'stay true to themselves', as fluffy-bunny as that sounds, because not every interaction they have will reinforce the label.

What do you think? I'm afraid I've got to get ready for uni now, otherwise I'd try and explain what I mean a bit better!

 

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  posted on 7/2/2008 at 03:04 AM
quote:
I didn't mean to come across as forcefully as that! ) I do believe that a self-fulfilling prophecy can have a powerful effect. My sole knowledge of the matter is drawn from A-level psychology (four years ago!) where we studied the devastating effect it can have on a child if their teachers label them as 'stupid'.

It was just the small bit I quoted that I disagreed with, partly because of how inescapable you made the process sound, and partly because of the example you gave right before it. I suggest it might be easier (although not easy) to reject a label given to you by society because of the two things you've mentioned - knowing what you believe, and understanding the process is happening. I think people are more aware of general labels applied to them than they are of personal lables, and so in a small way have more chance to recognise what is going on, and I think it might be easier for them to 'stay true to themselves', as fluffy-bunny as that sounds, because not every interaction they have will reinforce the label.

What do you think? I'm afraid I've got to get ready for uni now, otherwise I'd try and explain what I mean a bit better!


It sounds as if our only disagreement is a question of degree. I don't think that you can opt out of the process entirely and remain a social animal (although "topping from the bottom" has been known to occur. I am forced into the role of "monster teacher" sometimes by some of my students whether I want to be that guy or not). Also, my example of the inveterate, obstinate asshole isn't someone who has entirely opted out, either. That guy has just picked the role that others are going to reinforce. No, I'm still convinced that you'd have to be truly asocial and profoundly psychotic in order to remain unaffected entirely.

Still, I'm interested in some more detail about why you believe the effect can be negated in some instances. (By the way, thanks for correcting that typo of mine in that quote. )

 

____________________
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  posted on 7/2/2008 at 10:38 AM
quote:
It sounds as if our only disagreement is a question of degree.


*nods*

quote:
Still, I'm interested in some more detail about why you believe the effect can be negated in some instances.


I think that in some situations a label that might be applied to a person might be so far off their own view of themselves that they can disregard it. That would be the 'knowing themselves' part. For example, imagine a student who is quite intelligent, yet does not apply themselves in class. They may be labeled as 'stupid' by teachers, but if they have confidence in their own abilities, and do apply themselves in learning the material for their exams, then they could still do well.

Alternatively, if a person realises (and there's the catch) that someone has labeled them, then they can decide if they want to be thought of in that way, and take action accordingly. That would be the 'knowing the process is happening' part. Example; If two people meet for the first time, and one forms a negative opinion of the other (maybe they were having a bad day...) then the next time they meet, person A will act towards the other based on their initial impression (bitch / jerk etc...). If person B realises that A's actions towards them are because of a label that was applied to them on their first meeting, then they can act differently towards A to engineer a label they approve of.

I think that general labels would be easier to disregard, because they are less likely to meet with a person's view of themselves, but personal labels would be easier to change, once you realise they exist, because you can change your behaviour to affect how other people perceive you.

 

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  posted on 9/2/2008 at 12:43 AM
@Pix

I don't have anything to add to or remark upon your latest post. I think what I'd like to see are more clinical studies done in this direction, since a lot of our observations here are so speculative. Unfortunately, I can't imagine at the moment how to set up a controlled experiment to test any of this in a really meaningful way. I'll think about it.

I did want you to know that I read your latest post and am still mulling a lot of over.

 

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  posted on 9/2/2008 at 05:01 PM
hmm. Again, this type of article, makes me wonder Passenger,
No need for concern

How old are you?

physically,young mentally, Alert, metaphorically? I feel like a thousand years old sometimes
If you don't mind me asking.
I don't mind you asking, I just don't know why it is important.

And Hi to you, too

Word of advice, don't be like I was when i first got here and go around spouting off about things that you don't know, and youll get by fairly well.

ok, but it was just me and my opinion .take it or leave it.if I am wrong, correct me, or something. Isn't a forum to express information and opinions?

Plus, since Feral isnt here to tear your conversation apart, your probably safe

safe For now anyway.
Cat

 

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  posted on 11/2/2008 at 10:27 AM
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I definitly respect your opinion, it was just ... warning. I do that now and then because I unfortuatly was a "noisy idiot" and ended up with a bad start, lucky me now ive grown up.. .and been more accepted... I think.

I don't know they like me anyway.

 

____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up and
learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]

 

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  posted on 18/2/2008 at 06:59 PM
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I definitly respect your opinion,Strange, very strange, most the time I am not allowed to have an opinion, so I 'm glad to meet someone who will listen to me,

do that now and then because I unfortuatly was a "noisy idiot" and ended up with a bad start, lucky me now ive grown up.. .and been more accepted... I think.


may I ask how do you become a noisy idiot, and how do you get a good start with this group.? I think acceptance takes time, until I become familiar with this place, I am afraid I'll be making alot of mistakes


I don't know they like me anyway

I don't know, you seem likeable to me, maybe because I am a nice person and projecting my niceness onto people?

 

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  posted on 19/2/2008 at 10:40 AM
most the time I am not allowed to have an opinion, so I 'm glad to meet someone who will listen to me,



I lived in a home, where I was not allowed to have an opinion and got punched for sharing my thoughts. So i respect everyones opinion

may I ask how do you become a noisy idiot
You actually just are. There is no, becoming. I think the definition for noisy idiot is on here somewhere. You, learn to grow out of it, by showing your intelligence and letting your true brilliance show through.

As an amazing person once told me, "I want to be impressed." Me, Myself, I am looking for someone close to my own age, that I can talk to, and show people that even though we are young, we are brilliant in our own way.

until I become familiar with this place, I am afraid I'll be making alot of mistakes



Theres nothing wrong with making mistakes, everyone is human.

I don't know, you seem likeable to me,

Thank you very much,




 

____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up
and

learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]

 

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Status: Offline

  posted on 19/2/2008 at 07:46 PM


I lived in a home, where I was not allowed to have an opinion and got punched for sharing my thoughts. So i respect everyones opinion

oh, I'd hope nobody ever punches you again, it should be against the law.
it's good to respect people's opinions,it seems opinions have lost their value due to something.

may I ask how do you become a noisy idiot[

/b]You actually just are.

I am,? thanks for informing me

There is no, becoming.

I disagree, I think you can become whatever you want, including an noisy idiot, all you have to do is make up your mind and persist.

I think the definition for noisy idiot is on here somewhere. You, learn to grow out of it, by showing your intelligence and letting your true brilliance show through.

Intelligence , what kind? There is more than one type i know.
it is just society likes to focus on certain ones. I think all people have something important to say somwhere deep inside .that is valid, creative and beautiful.


As an amazing person once told me, "I want to be impressed." Me, Myself, I am looking for someone close to my own age, that I can talk to, and show people that even though we are young, we are brilliant in our own way.

That's great, I have high expectations too, Although most the time I'll be dispointted, but I seek something greater and perhaps i'll find it someday. I enjoy watching people succeed.I am a hopeless dreamer ,you'll know.

Theres nothing wrong with making mistakes, everyone is human.

Actually I question that i am human daily.


I don't know, you seem likeable to me,

Thank you very much,


You're welcome, do you want ketchup with that? hehe


 

Member




Posts: 100
Registered: 13/2/2007
Status: Offline

  posted on 20/2/2008 at 08:09 AM
oh, I'd hope nobody ever punches you again,
Yeah, I don't live at home anymore, so I don't think it will happen

I am,? thanks for informing me
I didn't mean you in particular, dear. Just people in particular.

disagree, I think you can become whatever you want,
This is true.

Intelligence , what kind
No preference, just intelligence period, you don't see much of it anymore.

I am a hopeless dreamer ,you'll know.


Thats okay, me too.

Actually I question that i am human daily.


Thats interesting, it happens.

want ketchup with that
If I get fries too.


 

____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up />
and


learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]

 
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