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| Theories: Why I think that Communism is the way |
Posted by
W0rmW00d on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 12:05 AM PST
Today we complain constantly and bitterly about government. Bush, Blair, Chirac, you name it. It is becoming more and more clear that, to the majority of thinking people, elected representatives are simply not the way. 'What do we do about this?' we don't bother to ask. I think that the answer may well be that greatest of threats to freedom (read capitalism): the socialist world.
Think of a world where one need no longer sit on election day and think, 'Shit, it is about to be the same old thing all over again,' because there is no longer an election day. There are no conflicting parties interested in their sponsors or their own financial or socil furtherment. There are no adverts on television promoting this or that expensive car, personal claims attorney or credit card company. Where there is no longer gargantuan avarice, hunger, powermongery and corruption. How can this come about? Through the Socialist ideal 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.'
OK, rhetoric over. I feel that Global Communism is the way because it is the epitome of equality and fairness. There can be no room for discrimination according to nationality where there is no nationality. No more patriotism means no more inter-country war. No way for two creeds to fight when the one creed in the world is humanity. Marx wrote that 'Religion is the opiate of the masses' but it is also its firestarter. Without religion there is no more blunt acceptance of our lot knowing that 'The good Lord has his plan.' We would constantly strive for betterment of the least, and the feeding of the hungry. Improvement and advancement would be almost an imperative. The colour of
ones skin would be no more a reason for hatred than the colour of ones hair and there would no longer be economic causes for war on account of there being no economy.
The arguments so often pitted against Socialism are, I feel, relatively easily countered:
'There will be no freedom to do as one wishes' - There is not really that freedom anyway. People would be able to do more or less as they wish within a framework of rules, as in the society we have now. There is no need for overarching police involvement, especially since personal greed should, over time be eliminated. The re-education issue raised as a freedom issue is, to my mind, nonsensical. To beleive that re-aligning humanity's views away from the self and towards the whole is a curtailment of personal liberty is a non-sequeter. The single is part of the many. One works for oneself and all others,just as all others work for the one and all others. That it is towards a larger good that one works shouldbe an incentive to work harder, not a disincentive.
'That is not the way that human nature works' the reply comes - Says who? the people who try to shape human nature, as far as I have ever been able to see. The lust for power and wealth comes from a society whose focus is personal power and wealth. It is society reflected in its citizens and then vice versa, spiralling into perpetuity. Change the focus and the drive will change. I admit that this is no easy task, but then how many worthwhile tasks ever are? There would be resistance, but I would expect it to be from those who profit under the old regimes, hence the 'workers' revolution' rather than one from the aristocrats. These people are supposedly the most civilised of us, so would it not be possible to argue them around, rather than the slightly more crude method of 'Up against the wall, motherfucker, here's your cigarette...FIRE'? Their numbers are also very few. A utilitarian ethical view would even
see the greater good profiting by their deaths, but I would rather any transition remainded peaceful. I say, and I will maintain I'm sure, that any species which can be convinced that vast swathes of tarmac across a landscape upon which vast wheeled machines travel at tremendous speed is a normal state of affairs can, within a few generations be convinced that anything is normal.
'What about crime?' - So there will be crime, one regrettable fact that I imagine is unchangeable, but I suspect that once the individualistic aquisitional instinct has become redundant, much related crime will cease, become atrophied or in some cases, due to a new areligious moral code, simply be legal.
'And what about those spongers, doing nothing, reaping our rewards?' - Again, I feel that some of this may well fade with a more collectivist mentality in place. Again, what has changed, many people claim social benefits unneccessarily. Again I state, 'From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.' How much does a non-worker need? Less to eat, sure, less to drink, sure. Less recreation, of course, because they have nothing to wind down from. I do not see socialism as blanket evenness. That would be foolish, a biological fact is that the more people do, the more energy they burn, so the more they need to consume. Because greed would become essentially nonsensical after generations of no possessions, people would not feel jealous of the bridge builder who eats more than the educator. Jealousy is a function of greed.
'What about the massive beurocracy required?' - As opposed to our tiny streamlined ones? Yet another case of us being no worse off in one area, and better in so many others. Another benefit of a brand new beurocracy is that it could be totally transparent, so trust in the 'government' such as it is, could easily be made absolute. True freedom of information.
'With no competition in business progress will stagnate' - Not so. How many truly great advancers of our, or previous, times have done so with the sole intent of beating the competition? Some, admittedly, but many do so for the love of what they do, for the joy of finding a more efficient system, more elegant design or just more interesting concept. Intellectual stimulation does not die with personal gain. Someone who does something first just to be the first to have done it does not necessarily do it first so that everyone else can know that they are the first to have done it, but for personal satisfaction.
My final point is the transition. The few generations for whom personal possession is an actual memory may have difficulty adjusting. I simply do not know how it can be done. Marx thought revolution, but revolution needs a head, and from that comes personal power. Then you end up with the Soviet Union.There must be a better way. I will continue to think on it, as I'm sure will many others, but until then:
Sempre Hasta La Victoria, Comrades.
I invite, welcome, and hope for comments and discussion on this topic. One very close to my heart. Any
worries I will try and calm, any arguments I will try and counter. Greater minds than mine have thought
on these subjects, and greater yet will come, but that was written for the pleasure, and I hope the
pleasure of debate will continue it.
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| Why I think that Communism is the way | Login/Create an account | 14 Comments |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by Schizo (Aranea@Spidersdance.com)
on Jun 07, 2005 - 02:08 PM
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I'll tell you what I feel on the subject. I'll warn you that this is not a hugely well-thought-out thing, but more of a gut reaction.
The thought of a completely Communist world makes me nauseated. Of course, the one we have makes me nauseated as well, but communism gives me that hurl-until-there's-nothing-left-and-then-keep-hurling degree of nausea.
I would far rather have no government whatsoever. I would rather have to hunt and gather for myself and mine, and then turn and fight tooth and nail to keep what I earned, like the animals do. I would rather die in combat with my neighbors over a day's food, or of starvation itself, than turn to a Big Brother for my properly apportioned fare.
I would rather be free to live or die by my own actions than be kept like a farm animal, to have my livelihood apportioned according to my usefulness.
And I am even less interested in being one of the ones who decides who gets what. I think it's none of my goddamn business.
Just my gut reaction. I know there are many more like me, who would never, NEVER consent to live like a shepherded sheep.
Maybe it's an American thing - something that a few of us still possess. The "give me liberty, or give me death" heart that will not consent to give up one's own freedom and accompanying responsibility to another in exchange for comfort or security.
If you ever succed in setting up this world-wide communist government, I hope you expect to find at least one whole-hearted rebel. To me, nothing, even life itself, is worth that sacrifice.
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by W0rmW00d (allchaka@hotmail.com) on Jun 08, 2005 - 09:17 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | The thing about the world that we live in today is that the worth of a person is not assigned due to merit. We are apportioned what we get on a nonsensical scale which breeds inequality, which breeds greed and powermongering. The worthy get less because their jobs are less spectacular and those who start high stay high because money makes the world go around.
While I appreciate your feelings on the matter I do not see how a pseudo-egalitarian system could possibly be worse than the system of 'make the wealthy wealthier at the expense of the lowlifes.'
As for farming; the difference between us and cows is that we have PS2 and can choose which field we stand in so long as we do not tread on the farmers' toes. |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by Schizo (Aranea@Spidersdance.com) on Jun 09, 2005 - 02:21 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http:// | Exactly. Which is why I am also nauseated by the way things work today.
Just because I am captive in a farm right now does not mean that I think the solution is to be part of a better-run farm. I just wish I could jump fence altogether.
And honestly, I would really like to see the government that can truly assess every citizen's true merit.
There are times in my life where anyone looking at me as a statistic would have written me off as worthless scum and white trash. I'm not, and the people around me knew that, but I definitly would not trust a communist government to figure it out. |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Jun 08, 2005 - 10:18 AM
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I don't have a problem with the general IDEALS of communism...a community nation, blanket equality, care for all in that nation, everyone doing their part, no jealousy or greed or envy. Problem tho. UTOPIA will never exist. UTOPIA cannot exist. It never has. Even as simple animals we fought, killed each other, warred each other, hurt each other, but we also lived in community with each other. No matter how you try to "re-educate, no matter how hard, no matter what the idealised outcome, it will not work. People have tried it before. The only way Utopia can exist is if ALL are equal, and communism does not allow all to be equal. There is the equalised public, and then there is the elite govt making sure that everyone is equal to their point of view. It's just another variety of taking power out of the hands of the people and placing it in the hands of the few. People are just as envious and greedy with full stomachs as they are when they have to work two jobs to pay rent and eat .10 noodle soup for breakfast lunch and dinner. So you take away material "wealth" and power....people will still envy the prettier girl, the man with more friends, people who have bad marriages will be envious of people who have good marriages, people who cannot have children will envy those who have as many as they want. Envy and Greed are not terrible. They're motivating factors of human existence. You envy your neighbors nice yard, so you work harder to make yours look better, you envy your neighbors good job that makes more money than yours, so you work harder to get a better job that gives you the things you want. Just as many people would not be able to eat what they do now if they had to kill and process their own food, they would not do some of the shitty jobs they do now if the pay wasn't good. Granted there are "starving artists" and "starving students" who are willing to live in poverty to follow their dream, but if given the chance to make good money at a different profession to support their passion until it CAN become a career, they will take it.
My other problem is that if communism is such a good way, and is so beneficial, then you wouldn't HAVE to re-educate the public to accept it. They would want it. And there are people who do, but there are a LOT of people who don't. I'll take the wager of living paycheck to paycheck with the hope of something better I can achieve down the road, then a preset govt determined destiny that is no better or worse than my neighbors. I do have freedoms. Not total freedom, and not as much as I'd like, but a fair bit more than most of the world enjoys, and I know that should I want more freedoms I have the ability to rally and fight for them. I know the state of my country an the world is a sorry one, and I know it's probably going to get worse, but I'll take uncertainty over total control that's "for my own good".
There will also never be absolute freedom of information or trust in the govt, because it is run by faulty human beings. Human beings lie, hide things, twist things, and the more power they have the more sordid things WILL become. It's a scary phrase "Total trust in the govt". That's putting a bit too much of my personal welfare in the hands of someone who sees me as a number on a headcount sheet.
Socialism sounds nice on paper (depending on who's writing it too), and as I said there are some very FINE ideals in it, but when it comes down to it, when you look at past examples of ANYONE trying to "equalise" the public (and inevitably the world...communism and "democracy" just can't seem to keep their hands to themselves) or to create a Utopian society have grossly failed, and lead their people into something way way worse than they bargained for. I'll take bloody black and blue over a unifying shade of gray any day.
Now.....perhpas there is a sort of comprimise between "Democracy" and "Communism". A way to bl
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by W0rmW00d (allchaka@hotmail.com) on Jun 08, 2005 - 09:33 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | I cannot argue the envy of the uncontrollables, the good looks and the good taste and such. It did not occur to me at the time of writing that these things will also play a part in the inability of people to accept others.
The re-education of people to accept communism is not necessary because of any flaw in the principles or ideals (though maybe in some of the cases that I have laid out, which are really my own views on implementation as opposed to a pure Marxist of Trotskyite view) but because material greed is what we are brought up to aspire to and social equality, especially under the buzz word of 'communism' is something that most of the world is or has been (with great effect) propagandised to mistrust and/or hate.
The reason that previous communist revolutions have brought about the elite head over the proletariat body is that the leaders of the October revolution came from the same bourgeous class that the communist ideal attempts to eliminate. They ruled in the manner of the bourgeous which is the antithesis of true communism. All subsequent revolutions/coups followed the soviet pattern and so the problem became self-perpetuating. The elimination of this hierarchy is one of the problems of the original changeover of system which I could not find any answer to.
Greater control is not necessarily entailed by the communist system I propose either. There is no reason that you should not be able to do what you do now within such a system. The 'nuspeak' style elimination of certain concepts which I proposed is, admittedly, a suppression technique but it still leaves people able to follow uninterrupted lives. That one's allocation of raw resources is decided by a central system rather than a commerce-centric one makes no difference to the receiver. |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jun 13, 2005 - 10:41 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | It's been a few days but I've put some thought into this, so here goes.
When dealing with matters of material wealth, you have three classes (as of now, tho there is quickly becoming two classes as the gap between wealth and poverty continues to widen, especially in america.) Poverty level, middle class, and upper class. The poorest having nothing to look forward to, as things cant usually get any worse, will most likely rally to anything that promises to put food on the table and pay the rent. They have the most to gain from a system set up to bring them up to a comfortable living level. They also have the least political power within the system. The middle class who is quickly becoming poor but who still have the comforts of "middle class life" will be fence walkers, as they still have memories of "something better" and will balk at not being able to achieve greater things with their lives. Still, as I said, they are quickly becoming poor in this administration, and in time may join the poverty class's desire for SOMEONE or SOMETHING to "fix" things. Then you have the wealthy. I have nothing against most wealthy people. Some of them earned it themselves, worked hard for it, but a majority of our political leaders and socialites and people who carry the most clout in political affairs are second, third, fourth generation wealthy class, and have never known or tried to understand the life of someone who lives paycheck to paycheck. They don't make up a majority of the country, but they rule it in it's entirety. The elite class is the group of people you will have the most problem with, as unlike the rest of the country, they will not be elevated, but reduced, and I know not a single wealthy person with a penchant for "slumming" in the truest sense of the word. From my point of view, easing my financial troubles through a socialist govt seems rosy....doing away with systems in place that make the rich richer and the poor poorer. However, if I was in a position of financial freedom, I would hang you from the highest tree.
When Martin Luther King Jr began his civil rights movement to bring equality to those of non caucasian skin tone, he raised one hell of a stir. He caused the worst kind of problem to those who were "elite" simply because of ethnic heritage, he wanted his children to be able to use the same bathroom, eat at the same tables, go to the same schools, and enjoy the same freedoms and peace of mind in public that people of lighter skintones were able to enjoy. A lot of people think he was gunned down for this reason alone. Fact is, he was able to continue his campaign for civil rights to a point of no return without anyone picking up a gun to remove the "problem". There were death threats, resistance, and all the ugly responses we've seen in history class, don't get me wrong. The real "problem" started when he began preaching equality to POOR southern people of ALL colors, for SOCIAL and ECONOMICAL equality. Back then, the black population of the country was about 1/3 (if I'm correct, it's an estimate) and the poor population (especially in the south and midwest) was about the same, if not greater. The greatest threats to his life were made when he began preaching to these two groups together against the elite, which is a rather small percentage of the population but which holds the most control. He in essence was taking a majority of the country (the poor and the non caucasian) and starting a revolution against ALL who oppress for ALL reasons. And he was shot for it. The nation lamented the loss of JFK, the last gunslinger, but the TRUEST loss of the real gunslinger, a man who truly believed in equality for all, economically, and racially. Morevoer he didn't want to depose the rich upper class...he just wanted the same rights for all as they have, and the same peace of mind of knowing where your next meal is coming from if you can't make your ends meet, that you have a roof over your head, access to education, just as they had.
These are reaso
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by Rogue (Rogue@skew.org)
on Jun 08, 2005 - 06:28 PM
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I'm with you on this one. It is my opinion that the governments that offer the most freedom, real freedom, in this world are communist/socialist or inspired by these. Individual provinces *ahem, Taiwan* in China have far more autonomy than States do here, and states here are supposed to be the ultimate authority. We are locking up animal activists for being terrorists here, and being chided rightfully by the architects of the Tiananmen Square confrontation. Canada's healthcare system and other parts of its government are socialist in nature, as are many aspecs of European governments. Representative democracy/republic governments have proven themselves to be short-lived and highly corruptible, with no exception. I would qualify all of this however by noting that you can't use Marx or any other one source as a blueprint either, you have to flavour the plans with whatever works for the nation in question and make an eclectic selection of the best of other systems, such as the capitalism that rarely accompanies communism.
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jun 08, 2005 - 08:43 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | | Out of curiosity, what past communist/socialist govt WAS successful and uncorrupted? Govt and politicians are corrupt by nature (Power=responsibility only works in comic books), regardless of their policies. Socialising certain aspects of the govt NEEDS to be given a try, but an all out change of hands? |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by dead-cell (freaksworth01@netscape.net)
on Jun 09, 2005 - 12:55 AM
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I’m going to agree with Schizo, and Bettie. Not to brown nose, but because they posted before me.
Communism, like so many of my teachers told me, looks good on paper. Carl Marx was a dreamer and that’s not a bad thing, nor is his “communism.” Share and share alike that is a great idea, and it works for siblings, relatives, friends, neighbors, and small communities in a Norman Rockwell setting. However, he failed to consider humanity’s darker side such as selfishness, apathy, and prejudice. Once more he forgot human stupidity, and as humans are: they went and fucked up his dream. The socialist/ communist leaders went around trying to fix social inequalities, fighting for the working man or woman. Soon enough though they lost their way corrupted by power, or tangled in the web of politics. You see what Carl Marx failed to put down was that communism works much better as an economic practice. Once you add government in the mix, communism becomes a dirty word for monarchy and feudalism. I would like for it to work, but some prick somewhere has to ruin it. Yes, I admit capitalism is flawed too; cruel, ever evolving, and nauseating as well, just like the cosmos, but that one prick dose not ruin it for everyone else. Democracy 1776 style, beaten and bruised by power plays and apathy, still kicks back against corruption when she can. Democracy is in bad shape but she’s not done for.
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by callei on Jun 10, 2005 - 07:10 PM
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A show of hands people... how many of us have actually READ more than a few quotes from Marx or Engles (sp?)? anyone slogged though the Communist Manifesto or um.... Political Economics and something (that is an essay/novela thingy I think). Anyone remember what Marx said about Communism and its application?
*sigh* going back to my term papers now.
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jun 10, 2005 - 11:17 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Callei I'll be honest and say that most what I learned about communism I learned in public education. I grasp the gist of it, I grasp the historical documents and the effects of it. I did a Pacific Northwest term paper in college on it's effects in washington state (during the red scare era). To what I understand Communism is govt community, one nation, one family, everyone pulling their own to their ability, everyone doing their part as a nation to care for their neighbor. What I DO know is that in the past it's been just another creed for someone to gain ultimate power to shape their enviroment to their standards, and they ended up making things WAY worse than they were before they took power. Above that, I know not much more. It is sort of interesting, and since I"m running out of Stephen King's and Dean Koontz's escapsim that I do so desire at this point in my life, I may just turn my eyeballs to something serious for the first time in years and do some homework.
Now that being said, what do you think? |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by callei on Jun 11, 2005 - 06:40 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | Bettie, I think would have fun with a 12 pack, a red pen, and a copy of the manifesto. That is how i read it the first time and, believe me it made it waaay more fun when i "felt" I could argue back and make nasty comments.
As far as it being a way for the power hungery to grab power, well any system (at least any that allows people to change social status) allows that to happen.
I have some trouble believing that the lifestyles of the seriously poor in China or Russia were/are significantly worse under Communism than they were under the Tzars or local warlords. ok that one child limit in the cities is rough on some families, but they arent starving in the streets and amputating parts of thier children's bodies to make them better beggars. They have medical care, access to education, and more control over thier living environment. Same thing in Russia/USSR.
There was a mind blowing documentary done about the people in East germany 10 years after the wall came down. IT was about how they are now living in serious poverty, have way fewer ways to make a living, no access to healthcare, limited access to education, and are being victemized and discriminated againt all the time. IT was heartbreaking to watch.
Personally, I am a monarchist (in terms of the uber governemnt) and a socialist (for economic things) and a tribalist (for the socialization things). Communism, as an economic theory requires, in my opinion, a higher level of technology, education, and more stable world politcal/economic situation before it can really work. |
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Re: Why I think that Communism is the way
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jun 12, 2005 - 11:16 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | | Which I agree with totally, and anything can be made fun with a twelve pack and a red pen (and I have pictures to prove it). I do think that the way to "deal" with things is to socialise aspects that everyone should have access to (health, jobs, economics, families etc) and a different type of govt. Democracy as an American concept is in it's infancy, and not doing so well currently and SOMETHING needs to be done, whether Democracy needs a makeover, an overhaul, or to be done with entirely, yet I don't think that Communism would really be the answer (as of yet), and definitely not the Communism we've seen in the past, as it DOESN"T equalise everyone, as there are still multpile someones higher above the population. I brought up socialised health with my mother (who's a nurst) and she said that it'd tax people like crazy. Well I as a person am being taxed out the asshole and STILL paying outrageous monthly healthcare that I barely use, and the healthcare insurance that my husband uses STILL puts us in the poorhouse. It's a tad hopeless in my mind, and it's overwhelming and makes me want to play turtle. |
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