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Articles: Goth Bashing is alive in America |
Posted by
Shade on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 07:11 PM PST
OK, the link that is (probably was pretty soon) at the top of this page read:
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Anyone in the United States old enuf to pay
their federal income taxes should read this
___________________________________
When I clicked it it went to a page that said the article had been deleted. Never one to give up easily, especially not when our deity has spoken, I poked a bit. I found the article in what looked like an automatic archive of the St Louis Post-Dispatch, the original article can be found here. In order to make absolutely certain the article didn't go away I clicked for the Printer friendly version, and saved it off. now seeing as how the original article had been deleted the same day it hit the news, I decided that perhaps it was in response to pressure from the political sector which is responsible for this outrage, so...I saved it and am mirroring the article in it's printer friendly format here. Where it will stay for ages to come.
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Goth Bashing is alive in America | Login/Create an account | 45 Comments |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Apr 11, 2002 - 12:43 AM
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I found this particularly amusing...it's what the simon corp. (owns tacoma and northlake mall...simon is a corporation owned by the xian coallition, by the way) said about hot topic.
That they are responsible for the degeneration and corruption of american youth and promote behavioral and emotional problems in children. That's awfulluy funny, as we have no bad words of sexual inuendo's allowed on our employees or merchancice. We support delinquency, yeah...
It sort of gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that my tax money is helping kids that already have a tough time establishing their individuality ans ense of self and self expression an even harder time by funding brainwashing and military conformation of today's kids via the rape of my paychecks.
Combat the goth subculture....fun for the whole family, sounds like ot me...
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by MsAsphyxiate (-) on Apr 11, 2002 - 01:16 AM (User info | Send a Message) | After I read this it reminded me of the Columbine shooting. It was blamed on video games, Marilyn Manson, trench coats, goths etc. ALL of it is just an excuse for normal society to cover thier asses. For example, if there are a group of goths and a group of preps and the preps are smoking weed, and an officer comes around. Who would they blame it on at first notice? Exactaly. Same thing with trench coats. Trench coats have been included in the sub culture for some time now. Anything on them that could be blamed on anything different, they would use.
Wow...closded minded people suck |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 11, 2002 - 11:34 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/ | well, NEITHER should be smoking it anyway 'cause it's illegal. Good way to prevent the cops from singling you out is to not break the law in the first place. Don't give them a reason to single you out or have any LEGAL reasons to, and then you've got two feet to stand on.
Not that I"m some prude and anti drug agent, and I think drugs should be legalized, but I'm also for paying your own dues. Even if some "preppy" kid was smoking it right next to you and you get caught and they go free, you were still conducting an illegal activity. It wouldn't be fair, of course, I'm not saying that at all, but in theory if you got busted you could get off easy by turning in all those kids who weren't 'caught'.
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by nocta on Apr 12, 2002 - 12:57 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Interestingly enough, the Columbine shooters were neo-Nazis, not goths. For some reason, the media insists on ignoring this fact and continues to call them goths. If politicians feel the need to make society a better place to live, I honestly think our tax money would be better spent combatting neo-Nazi-ism, the KKK, communism, etc., than the mostly nonviolent Gothic subculture. It just shows that the people in charge don't do their homework. |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by prettykitty (vampsgirlzero@excite.com) on May 29, 2002 - 06:38 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.vampsgirlzero.50megs.com | You know just when I thought that the government couldn't waste anymore money on useless things they go and pull this out of no where. They wonder why most of "us" don't want anything to do wtih them. Look at what they are doing, they are pushing us further away. I'll be damned before I'll let some one try to "fix" me in to some comformist robot freak. What is this world coming to? Are they trying to start some kind of witch hunt or some thing? |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com)
on Apr 11, 2002 - 06:18 AM
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Reasons for the government to combat goth:
1. It's a distinctive look, and thus easy to pick on.
2. Most goths are nonconformists, non-joiners, and freethinkers. (this is what scares the piss out of the people in control)
It has nothing to do with violence or moral decomposition... there are many other subcultures that promote way more violence and moral decay than goths do. It's the fact that we cannot be controlled. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we got the "terrorist" label applied to us eventually for control purposes. Right now, they're going after the kids. I guess they think if they can stop them while they're kids, they won't grow up to be radicals, or be able to escape the system.
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by nocta on Apr 12, 2002 - 01:23 AM (User info | Send a Message) | I think it's better to look 'gothic' and not try and hide your darker side (i know that's totally cheesy, i'm sorry...just couldn't think of how else to put it) than to hide it and turn out like *insert serial killer names here*. Unfortunately, it does tend to attract more attention, not all of it good. |
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Fucking godamn piece of shit country
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com)
on Apr 11, 2002 - 07:45 AM
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http://www.geocities.com/vampcourt/index.html?1017202482720
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There Countless amounts of homeless people. Sick dying people.. People who have hard hard lives that use a little help. And this countrys fucking paying money to have little "medical" experiments on goths. thats FUCKED up.
*vampcourt is now up in flames and will be fuming for the next few hours..
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by feralucce on Apr 11, 2002 - 08:11 AM
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I am initiating contact with mr. Kit Bond as we speak... and I am sure you all would like to keep abreast of this... if you are interested let me know
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by Monolycus on Apr 11, 2002 - 08:43 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Yes, thank you, Feral. I would very much like to be kept informed. |
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-update update update- by feralucce on Apr 16, 2002 - 09:39 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | to update you all...at this point, I ahve not even recieved a "thank you for your message we will respond when we can"... I will be upping the letter load soon... anyone wanna help? was thinkin we could do it all withthe EXACT same letter...
Feral |
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Re: Re: -update update update- by feralucce on Apr 17, 2002 - 06:10 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | well... let's get a whole bunch of people togetherand do this thing... *grins* It'll be fun...
Feral
~listen... hear that grinding noise? that's his apradigm shifting without a clutch! |
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Please discourage Rep. Graves!
by gothvail (vail@gothicamateur.com)
on Apr 11, 2002 - 08:36 AM
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And I was just coming here to post the same article! Well, last night, I wrote an e-mail to Rep. Sam Graves, and I would like to encourage you to do the same. Please appeal to his sense of reason and don't try to bitch him out, thereby reinforcing his negative image of goths. Anyway, here is my letter to him:
Dear Sir,
I am frankly appalled by the idea that gothic culture could be considered to be dangerous. I consider myself to be "goth" and have done so for years. All this means is that I like a certain kind of music, prefer a certain kind of clothing and occasionally wear dark makeup.
But "goth" is not the only way I define myself. I am also a postgraduate students of archaeology at the University of [xxxxx], England. I am a Christian and consider myself to be rather conservative. I do not smoke, drink or do any drugs, and have never found myself on the wrong side of the law.
Many of my friends are also "goth". No, not all of them are Christians, nor are they tee-totalers. What we do have in common is that we are willing to accept one another's differences and not let them get in the way of our having a good time together and enjoying our friendships with one another. Please do not support legislation which discriminates against me or the many fine people I know and love.
Sincerely,
[Vail]
You can e-mail Rep. Sam Graves at sam.graves@mail.house.gov
Rep. Graves' congressional website: http://www.house.gov/graves/
Rep. Graves' Congressional Offices:
Washington D.C. Office:
Rep. Sam Graves
1407 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Phone: 202 225-7041
Fax: 202 225-8221
District Offices:
Rep. Sam Graves
113 Blue Jay Drive, Suite 200
Liberty, Missouri 64068
Phone: 816 792-3976
Fax: 816 792-0694
Rep. Sam Graves
201 S. 8th Street, Room 330
St. Joseph, Missouri 64501
Phone: 816-233-9818
Fax: 816 233-9848
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by feralucce on Apr 11, 2002 - 09:30 AM
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Sent to Sam Graves and "Kit" (obnoxious yuppy nickname" Bond
Dear Sirs,
I wish to address a matter of growing concern of mine. As you know, the "Pig Book" 2002 recently came out. Within its pages is something quite disturbing. $237,437 has been set aside for a program to combat the "Goth subculture." According to the news paper articles about this very thing, there will be therapy, research and even training for police officers to recognize the "threat."
I realize that Eastern Jackson County Missouri and Blue Springs Missouri may have some problems with youth violence and crime, but what concerns me is the out of hand labeling of the offenders responsible as "Goth." I am part of a large number of your constituents that find this labeling both unfair, and offensive. Many of us located throughout Missouri and many other states (since it is their tax money as well) would like, very much to get information on what is considered by officials and law enforcement as Goth.
Our main source of concern is the fact that this sets a precedent that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It sets up a precedent, that in the future, could be used to abuse and harass a section of the public due to their choice of crede. In the workplace it is not legal to discriminate based on race, color, sex, or crede. Why should it be legal on the streets?
At this point, we would like to receive information on this topic, and set up a correspondence so that this may be cleared up.
Concerned Constituent Questioning for Many
Kriss Hoffman
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com)
on Apr 11, 2002 - 10:29 AM
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Anyone up for a bit of research? Find out how many states have already spent money on anti-goth initiatives. I know of 4 others....
Some programs started as early as '83 some as recent as '01. So far as i know, it has always started as a religious (read Christian)thing in a given community and the active, bored soccor moms have pushed it to the state level.
I once had the oppertunity to talk to one of these women that had pushed for an anti-goth initiative in my community. I showed up rather conservativly dressed in my business dress ( i was a sales manager for one of the largest chains in the US at the time) and she wouldnt belive me that i was goth.
She told me that goths never hold jobs, are thieves and vandals, try to seduce young children and kidnap them (while making the kid believe that they are running away), are violent and cruel, are drunks and prostitutes, and dabble in the occult.
I told her about my life and my friends who do street resue of runaways, give money and TIME to charities, live non-violent lives, have thier AA tolkens or thier signed pledge to never do drugs, buy old buildings and restore them, and so forth.
She called me a liar and a fool. She told me that the goths had pulled the wool over my eyes and were perverting my soul making me unworthy in god's eyes.
I saw at that point that there was no point talking farther, as it was a religious thing, not a concious thing, thanked her for her time, and left.
When i talked to the city counsel i got a similar response from some of them, but thankfully the majority saw that MOST of the goths that they had pictures of (!!!!) had good jobs, no complaints from their apartment complexes, qualified for credit cards and loans, and most importantly NO criminal record for any of the crimes that they stood accused of commiting.
Instead of spending the money to harrass the local goths, they spent it most on outreach to the kids that needed thier help and on a survey to see if goth kids actually did more drugs or sold more drugs that "normal" kids.
The survey showed that goth kids were less likely to do drugs, less likely to sell drugs, and more likely to stop doing drugs than "normal" kids...
Yuppers goth kids are the problem, since they wont act normal and do lots of low grade drugs like the "good" kids
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by nocta on Apr 12, 2002 - 01:11 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Damn, no wonder people think the Goth subculture should be 'combatted.' I want to stop people from doing stuff like thieving, vandalism, kidnapping, etc. too, but at least I can see that it's not any subculture that makes someone do those things.
I don't think I've ever met a goth that was as criminally inclined as people seem to think they are.
It makes me sick to think that members of a religion whose God tells the followers to 'judge not, lest ye be judged' and 'love thy neighbor' would be so proud of themselves to perpetrate such a huge act of judgment and prejudice. :( |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by kat_vamp (catvamp@msn.com) on Apr 14, 2002 - 04:00 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www://communities.msn/catvamp | I started on it last night. And since my daughter has decided to wake up at 3:00 and tear up the house, needless to say I'm up again (can we all say sleep deprivation?) I'm going back to it.
I'm asking questions about people's personal lives. I'm also asking their opinions. I figure if I can get some kind of feed back going, and filter through the BS that will inevitably show up, that we could get some statistics on just how "bad" being Goth is. To rephrase that...maybe we could use the stats to combat the illusion that Goths are dangerous.
I don't know, but I think it could be interesting and maybe even useful. |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by kat_vamp (catvamp@msn.com)
on Apr 12, 2002 - 12:50 AM
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Dear God(dess)! Well, the sh** is really starting to hit the fan now. If Goths are in line to be subjected to governmental torture and annhilation, who's next? Bambi? No, seriously, I had no idea this was going on. I don't feel I'm in a place to write to anyone about this subject, as I am not your Upstanding Gothic Image (PTSD gives ya some wierd side-effects, tho I don't drink or do drugs, except prescription.) But WOW...I just don't know what to say. Maybe I should take in some of these homeless Goth kids or something. (As if my GF would let me.) What else can I do besides write? (I simply cannot write a letter saying how great I am [even if I think I am] when I'm hyped up on psycho-meds...it would be too hypocritical) How can I help?
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 12, 2002 - 12:55 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/ | you can keep your skirt down, your grades up, and keep up with the good legal behavior, kiddo.
the worst thing anyone can do is give anyone a reason to suspect a stereotype is true.
Sounds like you're doing just fine. Keep it up ^*^
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by kat_vamp (catvamp@msn.com) on Apr 13, 2002 - 07:12 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www://communities.msn/catvamp | Thanks, Bette! But I'm not in school...I'm 37, and a stepmother. And the only person MY skirt goes up for is my GF! LOL Thanks for the compliment! *grinning big...happy thought for the day* |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by Sardonic-Pain (Lilgothicchicka@yahoo.com)
on Apr 12, 2002 - 06:05 AM
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i was rather upset myself although I live in Virginia that kinda crap pisses me off. Doesn't the U.S have something better to do. Shouldn't state governments be using their money for something else. Hell, what good is it gonna do to put some kid into medical experiments. Everyone is too busy pointing fingers at someone else when more than likely some kids are getting off to the idea of being the problem Not to mention with all the "Goth experiment" stuff arn't kids only gonna get more ridicule with their peers. Thanks for making my teenyears a little more comfortable!
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by goathead (toxic@hotbrev.com)
on Apr 12, 2002 - 09:29 AM
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I don't think this is anything to worry or bother about.. In a way it might have a good outcome cause kids who have got issues might get the help they need. But wouldn't really think of it as a threat to the goth community(but a severe insult, that's for sure..). I mean, seriously, what're they gonna do? Scare people into conformity?
But it does piss me off though...
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by feralucce on Apr 12, 2002 - 09:40 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | we went to blue springs to see somethings last eve... and we were pulled over 4 times in the space of 3 hours because of the make up and stuff...
everytime is was routine and random...
RIght...
Feral |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by goathead (toxic@hotbrev.com) on Apr 12, 2002 - 04:09 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | ok, that was news for me. i didn't think it'd go THAT far.. isn't it illegal, btw? should be.. it's harassment ffs. |
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(GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by Monolycus on Apr 12, 2002 - 09:46 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Isn't what illegal...? Demographic profiling? Of course. So is charging income taxes to non-federal employees living outside of Washington, D.C. So is planting U.S. friendly regimes in key global hotspots. So is infecting U.S. citizens with plutonium to find out what happens to them. So is denying medical treatment to persons suffering from syphilis so that the advancement of the disease can be monitered. So is insider trading. So is rigging election ballots. So is gerrymandering. So is trading arms for hostages. So is laundering money. So is collapsing a corporation to reprice your stock options. Authority figures are not bound by the same legality/morality that the rest of us are. Did you honestly think that an authority figure has the least compunction about harassing a citizen? If there was a quick buck to be made from it (or even simply no chance to be caught), the average authority figure would not think twice about killing you and everyone you know. Your civil liberties are being sucked away as we speak in the name of "National Security" (It is hard to think of a greater misnomer), The Freedom of Information Act has been wiped away with a single executive order (11-11-01), and you can not believe that a police officer would actually harass a Goth? |
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Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by goathead (toxic@hotbrev.com) on Apr 13, 2002 - 06:08 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | I know our democracy is slowly washing away.. but it's still a shock that people can be harassed openly in our oh-so-liberal society.. *sarcasm*
makes me glad i'm not american.. |
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Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by feralucce on Apr 13, 2002 - 07:23 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://feralucce.vibechild.com | actually, before that... here in columbia missouri, goths get routinely harrassed under the guise of "we recieved a report of a suspicious individual in the area, can we speak to you?"
I have seen a frat boy jump a goth, the police show up, and the croud is telling the office the frat boy started it so they arrest the goth...
In New Orleans, the police can arrest you for any reason, and hold you for 72 hours while they "look for it on the books." The popular tactic , when a major convention is coming to town, is to round up the street kids and goths and take em to jail for the weekend... I personally have been charged with impersonating a human being, leaning with the intent to fall and assault on a big mac... I shit you not...
Feral |
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Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Apr 13, 2002 - 10:09 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | assulting a ketsup package, intent to breathe, impersonating a manaquin, attempeted assult on the side walk, bad breath, intent to commit a felony with sharp hair, indecent exposure(this one is real comon as any exposure is deemed indecent), consipracy to jay walk, conspiracy to assult a teddy bear, and on and on and on.
I tend to hide on roundup days, but I know iot happens alot. |
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Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by Monolycus on Apr 13, 2002 - 10:45 AM (User info | Send a Message) | "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave"... my curvy butt! And what galls me the most is that while these infringements of our rights are blatant, and more horrendous violations against the population are uncovered (and quickly forgotten) almost daily, we demonstrate nothing but apathy about it until it is the glow of our own fields and homes being burned down that we are reading by. Until this latest story about Goth bashing surfaced, I saw a number of posts that could be boiled down to "Don't be paranoid, life just sucks" (read: "I don't see how that affects me").
Do the aristocracy need to grow horns and pointed tails and dress the police in Gestapo uniforms before we admit that they are out of control? How much more cartoonish do these violations of our basic civil liberties have to become before people can see what a mockery is made of the idea of justice in this country? When it hits close to home we are suddenly outraged, the rest of the time we plaster stars and stripes all over our pick'em up trucks and chant "God Bless America". Frankly, the people get the government they deserve, and if these anecdotes aren't enough for us to DEMAND substantive reform, then I'm afraid the people have it coming. If you are going to be a sheep, then you must expect to be fleeced every now and again. |
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Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Apr 13, 2002 - 01:01 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | SO help me start a site that lists these programs, thier states, the elected offical that starts and backs them, and has form letters that goths can use to send to the elected officials, and petitions that can be printed. Help start or work with one of the other Goth education and protection groups. As you say yourself, dont jsut bitch do something.
And for the record, we have more civil rights than we did 50 years ago, but with it there are more rules to protect those rights. |
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Re: Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by Rogue (Rogue@skew.org) on Apr 15, 2002 - 10:59 AM (User info | Send a Message) | So you think if we build it, they will come? I am all for providing resources to track legislation and make the speaking up process easier, and I would be glad to help with such an effort although I will remain cynical about people losing their apathy and doing anything about it, even when it is their own interests. Look at the voting turnout for any given election, or the numbers of letters sent to representatives regarding any issue and you will see that the public apparently does not care what is done in their names.
"Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout. I may make you feel, but I can't make you think." -Jethro Tull
(did I just violate poetry laws?) |
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Re: Re: (GASP!) But... that's dishonest! by Monolycus on Apr 16, 2002 - 05:54 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Sorry for the delay in responding to this, but between the site being down and my mother's open-heart surgery, it just seemed there was always something in the way. Anyway, I am always willing to help. Just to mention, elected officials prefer hard copies of the angry letters and petitions in case the office toilet paper supply runs low (The typos make 'em quiltier!). If you wish to do more than make yourself feel better, there are only two known ways of getting their attention:
1.) Payoffs (Not an option. If I actually had the cash, I would donate it to someone less grossly overpaid than a career politician. Professional athletes, for example.)
2.) Leverage (Special interest groups exist that live for this kind of thing. The American Civil Liberties Union and the Anti-Defamation League spring to mind. Try 'em out, that's what they're there for.)
We're going to have to agree to disagree about the number of civil rights we do or do not enjoy and how that has fluctuated in this past half-century. That is also for the record. I am
your friendly neighbourhood
~Monolycus. |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Apr 12, 2002 - 11:44 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/strangeasangels/ | that is shitty...for some reason, I've NEVER gotten a ticket...even dressed to the nines. I don't know what it is, I don't cry or anything like girls usually do when pulled over. I even almost rearended a state trooper when doing 80 in the carpool lane (limit: 60 *yikes*) and I got off with a warning! Ive been pulled over 5 times and I've gotten off every time...lord knows how *knocks on wood...head will have to do*
Like my husband says "if that was ME they'd have gutted my car and held me for an hour and an anal probe"
COps are wierd...too wierd. |
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Re: Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by Xaoswolf (Xaoswolf@hotmail.com) on Apr 16, 2002 - 09:49 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://Xaoswolf.tripod.com | I get the enjoyment of a luggage check and quick sweep with the wand when I go to the airport. And that is for a business trip, no makeup, no tasteless band T's, just long hair, dark clothing, and a black trench coat is all it takes. These were random also, just like they randomly checked all the middle eastern men. |
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Re: Re: Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Apr 16, 2002 - 11:15 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | I practically wear nothing to the airport. I go for the strech pants and tank top (so they can SEE that im not smuggling anything) and put everything else in my carry on or jacket and run both of those through thier X-ray of DOOOM!.
I still get wanded almost everytime. I think they are looking for body peircings.... or a fat lip. |
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by asja (persephone53@hotmail.com)
on Apr 29, 2002 - 01:44 AM
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god this is unbelievable. its kinda ironic how history just keeps repeating itself, in the 60's and 70's they were saying the same things about the hippie thing, i mean some of these beauraucrats were probabl;y involved in that but have just sold out and are scapegoating the threat of a free-thinking refuse-to-be-fed-bullshit sub culture.
Although not from the US, but oz, this still really pisses me off, i mean isn't the us meant to be the land of the free and all that crap? free speech and thus free expression....oh the irony.
(p.s. i'm not american bashing its still pretty dodgy here, its just our government is too focused on doing things like violating the rights of asylum seekers at the moment to worry about some sombre kids in black. )
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Re: Goth Bashing is alive in America
by Ashlinn (newts_in_suits@hotmail.com)
on Aug 03, 2002 - 08:46 PM
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I actually read this article when it first was published.. I have family in St. Louis and my parents cut it out for me. I'm so glad that you guys are addressing the topic. I think the (white christian male-supremist) American governments are mostly just afraid of what they don't understand. I don't know why they can't go after the people who sit outside my grandma's house and rev their engines to impress their girlfriends or start fights in the streets. But they can tell just by looking at us that we're different and they don't like that very much.
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