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Author: Subject: Tough Love

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 7/7/2004 at 07:19 PM
squiddo... am not sure that this really fit here... some people... don't have a beef... if people feel they need to say it... then they will...

 

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The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 7/7/2004 at 07:28 PM
Maybe not, but I get the feeling some people are hiding their feelings and that's the kind of thing that will bring us down. I thin we can all agree, dishonesty is not respected at this website. So if yoo have nothing to say, just say yoo have nothing to say.

Rayce is a shining example, she has spoken how she feels adn she doesn't feel that anything is wrong with the website.

Anyway, it fits because it's mee bitching people out.

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to die so i could watch, and then me die.

-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 7/7/2004 at 09:01 PM
K shade, here it is to the best of my abilities, and I'm not able to properly respond to "what happened" and why I've "gone to seed".

I've lost my connection. Literally lost my connection to the site itself. It isn't just apathy on my part, tho i'll freely admit that is PART of it. It's rather deja vu what you said, as squid had said some things similar to me just the previous night. I'm not going to whine, I'm going to tell the absolute truth, so here you go.

It all began to end for me when the person I love most in the world was unjustly treated (a gross understatement of the situation) and so I screamed, I screamed louder and harder than I had in my whole life. I was met with worse than silence, i was met with bullshit and fake sympathy by those that "uphold the law". That was when I started to crack. I realised for the first time in my life that being fair and honest and having the will to fight hard enough brings you nothing. Truth on your side is as valuable as the paper money is printed on. I felt cheated. Worst I felt defeated, and worn down, and so very very tired.

How this relates to my going to seed...

I fully understand and accept that not only will this website never be what it was (or what it was to me) ever again, but that it's not right to want it to be that way. That is the rule of life and time, they both pass. I used to have the energy, but most importantly, the WILL to speak my mind. I don't any longer. I'm used up and yes, gone to goddamned rott far past seeding, and shade I swear it doesn't hurt to hear that because I knew it myself well in advance of your saying it out loud. You won't get any argument from me there. The difference in it all is the quality of my anger. It's gone from an element that kept the fire in my life and energy in my brain to slow seething sleepy coals. Towards the last of my more frequent postings, the fights weren't even any good anymore. They were wastes of time, they were squabblings, they were childish. They inspired nothing, brought out nothing good in the end, they accomplished nothing. I didn't even want their heads mounted on my wall, I just wanted them to be gone and forgotten. The tedium of having to tell attention whoring idiot after idiot after IDIOT to cut their shit out and grow up was brain numbing. And worse, this wave of peacenik crap began. Don't be mean, don't tell them their dumb, stop yelling at me, take them aside and do it in private blah blah fucking BLAH or "watch out for pets". FUCK PETS. Cat burns its wiskers on the stove cat won't jump on it anymore, savy? Every new person either grovelled or swaggered, kissed ass or made such a vacant wreck of everything they touched it was like digital herpes. And always ALWAYS someone on the side going "tisk tisk they're new lets HELP them be who we want them to be, not fry away the outside and see if the core is worth saving". Instead of looking forward to the wave of freakishly wierd but nonetheless entertaining summer break teenage trolls, I loathed it, because goddammit, in the beginning even the TROLLS were interesting. And the fucking slush piles! To hell with those, they're not slush piles they're dustpan sweepings! It's either kids I don't even know talking to me like I should WANT to know them, or kids being fucktards and then whining about how they get yelled at (with again, the person on the side giong it's okay, they're just mean). People that were wilting daisies or "eye candy" and nothing else "getting in good" with others and all of a sudden swinging about like king fucking kong. I'm not naming names simply because it's too time consuming and ugly and I simply just don't give a shit enough to bother.
I don't have the energy for it anymore. Life takes enough from me already, I came here to be relieved of it, not to be further stripped. Whether it's justified or not, I felt put upon, and at times, almost taunted to DARE open my mouth, and that made the feeling of wanting nothing more to do with any of it worse. My voice is lost, and part of it was drowned out and part of it was silenced by my own doing, if for anything, for self preservation. I can't figure out if I've lost the WILL to be the person some of you know, if it was taken or drowned out of me, or if I simply don't want to do it anymore. There were several times I had decided that I just didn't want to do it anymore.
Part of me still thinks that, I just haven't decided yet. I don't know what to do anymore, and I sure as hell don't know why I'm still here other than habit or morbid curiosity. You could say "to hell with your whining then just stop showing up". I might take someone up on that offer. I might tell them to go fuck themselves.

And shade dear, if it makes you feel better, I might drink frequently, but I've not the stomach for a true alcoholic. I'd be a lot worse off than silent if that were the problem. My personal life is dandy, but outside of that I'd like to take a bulldozer to it all.
I hope that clears the air a bit, and I know this isn't really the place FOR it, but you asked, and don't say I don't ever do anything for you.

I hope to kick the ass of whatever it is that's resulted in the way I am now, but if sheer effort or a trip to the shrink and some pills doesn't do it, I'll eventually just blow. It happens.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
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  posted on 7/7/2004 at 09:50 PM
bettie: you leave... and I am gonna start spamming your e-mail to you come over and kick my ass

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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Posts: 618
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  posted on 7/7/2004 at 10:38 PM
Well since Squid is asking for responses even if no response, I'll go ahead and respond.

Most of the beef's I've had about anyone (which really aren't all that many) have already been addressed, and I felt it just redundant to post the same things just reworded. Most of the really noisy ones that have annoyed me at times, seem to disappear very quickly or go into hiding. So those ones I tend to just look over and not respond to if I can keep myself from doing so, as I notice that oftentimes ignoring something that bothers you will actually go away or get less annoying with time.

I will, however, go ahead and address a few people that stand out in my mind.

Lady Cygnet: I had a really hard time putting my finger on what bugged me exactly about her. There were some really obvious posts that just didn't seem to mix in just right with the rest of the soup on the site, and I knew it wasn't just me that it was bugging. I'd usually see someone pop up with a response that made it apparent that I wasn't the only one thinking something along the lines of "this just isn't vibing just right" or "this is just a little bit off in some way". If a response to something is very close to what I wanted to say, I usually judge whether I'd be adding something more or just agreeing. Sometimes agreeing seems to be appropriate, but sometimes it's more appropriate to let a response stand alone as it's powerful enough on its own. I saw a huge amount of whining on her part. While some whining is fine, I'd much rather see a genuine complaint than just whining. I could listen to someone complain all day long, but when I only hear whining without a complaint mixed in then it just makes my ears ache.

Sticcupus: I got the impression he was a pet, and as I understood it, pets were to be taught mainly by their owners. Therefore, I tended to just let it go and move on if things seemed off-kilter with what he would post.

Feralucce: I found that through reading several of your posts, rather than just your first post to a subject, gave me a better understanding of what you were trying to say or get across. This made me feel you have a very good balance. I have no problem whatsoever with someone who does have a balance, and you have a balance.

 

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"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


 

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  posted on 7/7/2004 at 11:45 PM
Starlight: you have no idea how big of a compliment anyone has given me...

 

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The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 12:14 AM
I am removing my post and taking a break from shmeng for awhile. Hopefully all will be calm and loving again when I return.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone with what I originally posted here. I don't like to hurt people and by my pointing out what about this entire thing I don't like.. I did exactly that.

So hopefully everyone will still be here and this will all be over when I return. And if I hurt any of you please forgive me.

[Edited on 7/8/04 by EyeCandyRayce]

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 09:16 AM
Wow.. that did feel good to get off my chest but boy I hate writing stuff like that. I'm feel all guilty now like I've done something wrong and it is a fight to keep myself from removing the post entirely.

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 11:03 AM

I must say I agree with Rayce. This whole thing is starting to make me feel really sick inside.

We've gone through a few major purges over the years and each time it was harsh, but nowhere near as shmengy as this is. I think of the way things went before, the whining that the persecuted did when they were raked over the coals, the smug gloating the popular people who held little bits of power in their teeth did as they did the raking. We've recently gone through a discussion of what it means to be an "Us" vs a "Them". Traditionally, it's been the "Us" persecuting and chasing away the "Them", with the "Us" deciding who is "Us" and who is "Them".

That is somehting that strikes me as frighteningly like a popular high school clique. I never wanted to be involved with the "popular people" way back when I was in high school, because I just couldn't stomach the cattiness, meanness and sucking-up people in the group had to do to avoid the cattiness and meanness. Your head is always on that chopping block, waiting for the axe to fall when you involve yourself with a group who has the small bit of petty power and tyranny that comes with being one of the beautiful, popular people. Back when the "Us" was picking on the "Them", I took up for the "Them" because I felt it just was not right. Now I have a deeper understanding of why.

This place was once a wonderful safe haven for the misfits and outcasts who did not fit in anywhere else. Everyone was accepted for who they were, regardless of strangeness or social ineptitude. That was the beauty of this place, that people who were not given a chance in the real world, had a shot at feeling like somebody here. Every person here, from Devin to the lowest newbie, has been an outcast or misfit of some kind at some time or another. The thing is, some of the outcasts have found their place here, where they are no longer outcasts or misfits. Their strangenesses have become mainstream here, like polyamory, BDsM, varied sexualities, and a whole host of socially unaccepted religions. So much that people who cling to their monomagous, straight christian natures somehow feel guilty about who they are and feel outcast here. This is not the way it was meant to be. The wide-eyed children who came here to learn something of themselves and grow in an accepting community are now dismissed as unimportant lost causes on a regular basis. In order for these children to become accepted, they have to be exceptionally pretty or exceptionally brillant. Preferably both.

We have become what we abhor. An elitist society. And so we turn on each other after all is said and done. It breaks my heart to see my friends, people I have become very close to over the years, belittle each other and attack one another for those same differences that made each of us a unique outcast in the first place. The things that brought all of us together have now come under siege. I'm starting to get the creepy feeling that I now have to watch my back, watch everything I do or say, as I may inadvertently do something that is "unacceptable". I can no longer really be myself here, and that hurts. Shmeng is no longer the safe harbor for me that it once was. It is a dangerous place where the slightest mistake could cause the wolves to attack. I don't want to live like this. It may sound fluff-bunny, but I do wish that things didn't go this way. And if I have a choice, I don't want to be a part of the elitist "Us". It's far too scary. I'd rather be an unimportant little "Them".

I don't think it's at all a good thing to take joy and glee in being hateful and mean. I don't think that people who are capable of verbally ripping people to bloody shreds and do so mostly for for the entertainment value should be praised or held up to a higher standard than the person who tries to mind their own business and get along. It's one thing to tell someone that something about them irritates you, it's quite another to praise people for the best flames. This has become a "Let's see who can make the most biting, hurtful remarks" contest. As such, I want no part of it.

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 02:15 PM
Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou Rayce and MJ for your honesty.

This is something that has been bothering me about MYSELF recently. The fact is, I don't know whether or not my new-found beligerance is a good thing or not. I am haunted by the worry that it goes too far. That I enjoy hurting back far too much. And I'm not sure if my worry is based on my innate good sense of right and wrong, or just because I'm nervously entering uncharted territory.

But what do you do? I used to waste all my time and energy on people who did not deserve it, and I nearly destroyed myself doing it. So I've turned around and decided that I'm no longer going to let people waste me anymore. But some people don't get the picture, and insist on taking up my valuable time and energy just for the fun of it, and they don't leave me alone until I get downright mean. And I get a rush out of it - it's such a power trip.

Where is the balance? How do I remain compassionate without being used? And by extension, how does Shmeng remain compassionate without becoming just another featureless place to type on the internet? And is it really completely wrong to enjoy giving people pain when they have given me pain?

The answer is, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I did what I felt was the right thing to do when I started on this crusade, and yet when I read what Meranda Jade wrote, I feel she is right, too.

I think it is right that we be honest. Not just in actual words, but in the impressions we give to people. But perhaps we HAVE become too caught up in the fun of cruelty. Perhaps we should abandon the guilty pleasure of the royal flame, and instead take the time to instruct. To give the offending member the information and the opportunity to reconsider his or her actions. To neither ignore a misbehaving member, nor tear into it like starving jackals into a carcass. Yes, it is a much more difficult thing to do, but it is the responsible thing to do, and will end up bringing us growth personally, as counselors instead of inquisitors.

And this is not to say that there are people who need to be banished. Certainly, if instruction is deliberately ignored, then banishment is in order.

Elitism is a difficult term, as is discrimination. It is actually a GOOD thing to discriminate in certain cases. When I go to a car dealership, I discriminate between the vehicles to choose the one that suits my needs best. I discriminate FOR a good buy, and AGAINST a lemon. Likewise, when I choose friends. I discriminate for interesting, intelligent people who will treat me with respect. I discriminate against the boring, the stupid, and those who will use me or abuse me. It is also necessary for Shmeng to discriminate - to decide what sort of people we wish to gather together, and what sort is detrimental to the community. It's not fun, it's not comfortable, but it needs to be done, unless Shmeng is to become just another featurless forum, and a cross-section of ignorant America (or what ever other country the ignorance hails from.)

The trick is to discriminate by worthy criteria. Obviously, we do not discriminate by race, gender, age, or religion. The problem is, what is a worthy criteria to one person may not be a worthy criteria to another.

So the problems facing us seem to be these - to discover criteria that we can all agree to discriminate by, to have the courage to be honest in the face of those who do not meet up to that criteria, and to have the compassion to not be brutal to these people. Perhaps, then, Shmeng can be a place that appeals to all those who truly ought to be here.

And I will try to find a way to do this in my personal life, too. Damn it, why does balance have to be so difficult?

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 03:12 PM
Another thing. I may be called a fluffy peacenik for all of this, after all, diplomacy is not called for here and the gloves are off for everyone. Since the popular thing seems to be to emulate the Pantheon and be as blunt as possible in saying what is wrong with the site and picking out the personal traits of the members who are causing Shmeng to be shmengy, I will say exactly what I feel on the matter. What is causing Shmeng to die is not the newbies, twits or trolls. The problem here is much deeper, and it started with the first few purges. Once people realized that they could be reprimanded (karma scripts) for things they said, they had to think of every single word written before posting, altering things that could have been the right knee-jerk reaction to a situation and water it down, lest they be called flamebait or worse. Most of the time this would result in them being twitted, thus still doing them harm. So people just stopped talking altogether, rather than risk their karma. People stopped being themselves and worked harder to "fit in". This strikes me as incredibly funny, because we're all a bunch of freaks and misfits here anyway. When the freaks reject you, where do you go? The ones who couldn't alter their personalities sufficiently left. They had no other choice. It's no fun when you have to weigh every response to something for fear of potentially getting on someone's nerves and getting restricted. Now, I know that we all want to return to the good old days, when we did tear into the people who DESERVED it. People who were really trolls were publicly cut into ribbons, and they were good for the site in that they got everyone fired up and talking. Now, we're picking on people who are only twits, and that's not good in my mind. It's like kicking puppies. It must be more fun to kick puppies, though. They don't bite back. Keep kicking away the puppies, and all of you will get your wish. Shmeng will go back to the glory days of about 5 members and everyone can sit around saying to each other, "Do you remember when...?" Don't expect to get any kind of new input though. Someone mentioned earlier that more of the less acceptable articles should be submitted. I remember a time when they were, and people would critique or laugh at them or, in very rare instances, pick out something that they could debate from them. Nowadays, those same articles are thrown into a multipost and held up for public shame. I think the more things are controlled around here, the sadder the site becomes. I think that if someone picks on a twit, they shouldn't get their panties into a wad if someone else steps up and defends the unpopular person. I think that if someone has a problem with a pet, they should have the right to say what they mean, and then if someone defends the pet, it should not come with threats of banishment. It would definitely make for more traffic on the site as everyone gets their vicarious kicks and watches the bloodletting. What I'm saying here is, if you really want the gloves off, it shouldn't be one-sided. People ought to have the right to defend themselves, even if they aren't in the glorious clique of "Us". I would really, really love to see one of the "Them" crowd step up here and start talking shit about Pantheon menbers. That would make my day. most of us are here because we're not good at following society's rules. The more rules Shmeng has, the more it is decide who and what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" the more it becomes like mainstream society. Fuck mainstream society, and fuck anything that acts like it.

Schizo, i agree with what you said as well. It is good to discriminate about certain things on a personal level, and the examples you cite are good ones. And nobody should allow themselves to be abused. But I can't hold with a standard for discrimination when it comes to people. I've met some people who were dumber than a box of rocks, but had some of the purest hearts of gold that I've ever seen. Likewise, I've met some very intelligent people who were just fucking hateful. everybody is different, and Shmeng was supposed to revel in those differences. I can't stand it that it has become a place where people have to be "just like us". I don't want to be just like anyone but myself, and like everyone, I want to be accepted just for being myself. I don't want anyone to be just like me. That's a really creepy though, that people would try to be like me in any way. I am me, you are you, and the guy down the street is who he is. Maybe all of us could get along, but it's wrong to make everyone change into a uniform borg-like huddle just so we can get along. Now, there are ways of behaving that are beneficial to getting along, it's called common fucking courtesy and if someone refuses to treat other people reasonably, they deserve to get roasted. We all have different levels of what is considered reasonable, however. Someone could say something to me that I would laugh at, but would deeply offend my friend, causing her to defend me, and vice versa. At those times, differences can be talked out, and that is called communication. Something that needs to happen here, but will not happen if people are afraid to communicate their true feelings for fear of a karma script, or even fear of not being accepted by the popular people. Not that everyone is going to accept everybody, and if you find that one popular person doesn't like you, get over it and go on. You can't force people to like you.

It really all does come down to balance, Schizo. I hope we're still capable of finding some.

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 03:27 PM
This is pretty surprising. I come back to shmeng after spending a couple weeks in the forest and the site is going through a whole purging episode. I don't even know what started this whole thing, but I can see that there's something big going on.

I don't have any major beefs with anyone. Sticupus was an ass, and Sindel was just a digicam whore, but I can live with that. I guess I've got too much diplomacy or I'm too easy going or something, but I can't think of anybody I hate.

I hope you guys get everything straightened out. I'm goin' back into the woods again tomorrow, so when I get back, shmeng will have emerged like the phoenix from the fire. Maybe one of these days I'll get back to my old routine of checking shmeng every day, but I can't right now.

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 06:41 PM
Okay...I agree with what MJ and Schizo are saying....And, hearing MJ's argument, I think the karma scripts should be scrapped (Mind you, I'm easy to convince of things). But one thing bothers me still....after what Schizo and MJ have said, I feel like I've got a new restraint: No flaming, lest I appear the bad guy. And really, wasn't that the restriction that started this whole thing? Wasn't that the restriction this thread was supposed to cast off?

 

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  posted on 8/7/2004 at 10:30 PM
Alugarde, that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying, if you feel the need to flame somebody, don't be surprised if they come back at you. I'm saying that if people are going to be telling it like it is, then everybody gets to be blunt and honest and BE THEMSELVES, not just the ones who have the most security here.

 

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  posted on 12/7/2004 at 12:30 PM
Squiddo, there i no offense intended by this one... not directed at you

I don't have a name, but who ever approved squids last article... he has a great and frightening point... but 6 lines of text are the beginning of a forum, or perhaps a comment on an article... but not an article... what the fuck?

 

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/>





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 12/7/2004 at 02:56 PM
Meranda, you, more even than Shade, are making me search myself and my motives.

What you say is true. I know many very intelligent and otherwise interesting people who have treated me so cruelly that I will avoid them at all costs. And I know some people who could only be labelled as "slow" who have the warmest, most open hearts.

But then again, if I wanted to spend my leisure time with big-hearted idiots, I would be staying at New Hampshire Ball Bearings all day long. We have them in droves. And though some of those dear souls are sweethearts, they drive me completely up the wall, and I really want to escape them.

Is this completely selfish?

You say you would like to see one of "them" flame one of "us". But, if someone had the courage to speak up and give an intelligent, thought-out, to-the-point dissection of the faults of, say the Pantheon, I would say that person is probably an "us" in disguise. Being "us" isn't something we choose arbitrarily, it's just something someone is or isn't. We're discovering them all the time, and sometimes discovering that a person we thought was "us" really isn't.

And as for Shmeng being full of outcasts and misfits, it is true. But does that mean all outcasts and misfits belong in Shmeng? I would say not. It depends on why and how they became outcasts and misfits. Was it because of their ability to think for themselves, and come to a conclusion that differed from the mindless assumptions of the herd? Or were they outcast because, to put it bluntly, they suck? Some people (of course, not all), do not fit in because they are socially unacceptable on the most basic of levels. It has nothing to do with being part of the "norm" or not.

I DO feel that I need to be sure that my pleasure in flaming comes from the satisfaction of accomplishing well a job that needed to be done, and not in causing pain or feeling superior.

And anyone who has a bone to pick with me, do it, PLEASE! I'm not going to get my Pantheonic panties in a wad because someone doesn't agree with me, or sees something in me that needs addressing. I'm certainly not going to try to do things to people that I can't take myself.

However, if you start flaming me, and I search myself, and see no warrant for the flame, I'm not going to pretend to be apologetic when I'm not. And If you flame me just to see me writhe and burn, expect to get napalmed. It's what I would hope would happen to me if I flamed where no flame was warranted.

We need to be honest. We need to be honest to those who are irritating us, and we need to be honest with ourselves as to why we are being irritated. We need to be honest to the point where we can admit to ourselves when we are becoming what we hate. And we need to be honest to the point where we can admit that we are not what we hate.

Pretenses need to be dropped, and our own souls are the ones that need to be searched, first. Keep your minds open, and make sure you are as eager to find the worth in someone as you are the fault. Even in yourself.

And above all, don't take the Mother Confessor too seriously when she starts preaching. It's entirely OK to tell her to stop acting like those Christian ministers she claims to be so annoyed with. Because sometimes she likes to act like she got the inspiration straight from God.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Extreme Fanatic




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  posted on 12/7/2004 at 08:42 PM
Feral, yoo should damn well know I'm not going be offended by that. Yoo have a point and I actually considered doing that but the first Pharmacological Oppression was winding down meaning I was afraid the message would be lost and I felt that it was important enough that it should be on the main page rather than buried in the forums where people such as lurkers or people just checking out the site are unlikely to see it. Whoever approved my article probably agrees with mee on that matter.

Meranda Jade: I am in complete agreement with yoo that EVERYONE should be blunt and honest which is why I basicly dared everyone to get involved (although I may havegone about the wrong way of doing it).

 

____________________


i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.




-ickgirl

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/7/2004 at 09:17 PM
ok squiddo: what the FUCK was that????

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
/>







Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 658
Registered: 27/5/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/7/2004 at 10:26 PM
To what are yoo referring?

 

____________________



i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to />
die so i could watch, and then me die.






-ickgirl

 

Fanatic




Posts: 293
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 13/7/2004 at 07:34 AM
i for one, squid, am happy you posted this article. I think people should have a realization about everything going on with medication these days, and to be quite honest i dont think alot of people know. yah, some might dissagree and hate the article but its good to have it there. So what if it has lines in the article that were already posted in forums, alot of people, like myself, might have missed that.. so its cool..

-shrug-

[Edited on 7/13/2004 by VampCourt]

 

____________________
"Thou shalt not be afraid of the dark, nor of graveyards nor ghosts nor the devil, for thou art scarey and mean." -The Goth commandments

 
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