Wasn't sure were to put this, but f**k it...
I've seen it said several places around the forum here that the US is the
richest nation in the world, and frankly, I disagree.
The US ows money around the globe, especially to the UN and more than 12%
of the population lives beneath the poverty line.
Norway on the other hand, have no debt, and no people beneath the poverty
line.
So how can America be the richest nation in the world?
Largest yearly budget? Which usually go negative? Or because they bomb
everybody who opposes US companies and/or economic interersts?
____________________ "There are no atheists in foxholes" is not an argument against atheists.
It's an argument against foxholes.
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 8/1/2004 at 11:53 AM
God I hate that factbook... (remembers loong afternoons at work, copying
info one bit at a time into a database)
But seriously, the United States has a LOT of money. If we didn't, then the
rest of the world wouldn't put up with the crap we do. In developing
countries, the US is usually a major investor. For industrialized
countries, the US is a major consumer. So screw with the US and you screw
your economy. Without the US even launching one missile.
But if we start talking symbolically, about the US being rich in justice
and freedom and democracy, then yeah, the US is a welfare recipient.
____________________ Piggy's got the Conch!
dead-cell
Fanatic
Posts: 344 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 8/1/2004 at 03:30 PM
It not that the US is the richest nation in the world. Its the fact that
alot of the richest people in the world live in the US. As well as some of
the welthiest companies in the world.
I guess comparitively the US is like most baby boomers with a credit card.
We can buy things and look stinking ritch, but underneth we're in debt up
to our eye balls.
Ironboots: Take a deep breath and remember what you learned in history
class about the 60's... exhale.
____________________ co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)
Grendel
Occasional Poster
Posts: 40 Registered: 10/12/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 8/1/2004 at 03:57 PM
Just to add to the bad points for the US. If Saudi Arabia decide to pull
out their investmenst in the US the country and about every company in it
will go bankrupt over night. And then you can ask yourself, which is the
most powerfull? The US with it's military and economic power, or Saudi
Arabia, who can remove all that power from them if they want to?
____________________ "There are no atheists in foxholes" is not an argument against atheists.
It's an argument against foxholes.
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 8/1/2004 at 07:03 PM
IF Saudi decided to renig on its debts ( I assume that you mean the few
families that "own" most of the money/power in Saudi) then it would bother
Texas, 8 or 10 buildings in NY, and that is about it.
And yes i mean debts. they dont own much out right here, but they are
making payments...
And they would loose the millions that we give them every year.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Xaoswolf
Fanatic
Posts: 463 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 8/1/2004 at 09:13 PM
It's not the fact thta the government makes money, it's the fact that our
economy makes money. Our GDP is the largest int the world.
And as for people being in debt. I'm making a car payment and a student
loan payment. That puts me in debt, however, the payments are managable,
and in fact, I could probably pay more if I wanted and finish it earlier.
Being in debt isn't a bad thing as long as you can manage it.
____________________ Sometimes I dream about dinosaurs shopping for cargo shorts at the Gap.
Does that make me a bad person?
Grendel
Occasional Poster
Posts: 40 Registered: 10/12/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 8/1/2004 at 09:21 PM
I wasn't talking about the people being in debt. People here are in debt as
well. I was talking about the governement of the United States being in
debt to other countries and the UN.
And even if you do have the largest GDP in the world, you countrys budgett
never work. They allways end up negative.
____________________ "There are no atheists in foxholes" is not an argument against
atheists.
/>
It's an argument against foxholes.
that is, honestly, only because we FORGAVE all the debts owed us AFTER WWII
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Grendel
Occasional Poster
Posts: 40 Registered: 10/12/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 9/1/2004 at 08:34 AM
fera: Are you thinking about the Marshall help? The US giving out loads of
money to the countries of Europe if they accepted certain conditions about
how their country was going to be run?
All taht money was to be paid back.
Norway have no debt beacause we've been making alot more money than we've
spent the 30 or something years since we discovered oil in the North Sea.
____________________ "There are no atheists in foxholes" is not an argument against
atheists.
/>
It's an argument against foxholes.
callei
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 9/1/2004 at 08:57 AM
Grendie: Saudi is a KINGDOM, ie run by a few people that are related to
each other directly and raised to the idea of having to run a country. So
the debt of the nation is also very much the debt of a few people in thier
case. In the United states, instead of "families" there are corporations.
Those corporations are made up of family owned companies, workers, and
stock holders. the key differences there are: More people have a say in
where the money goes, including rival families, foreign investors, and the
nouveax riche that buy thier way into these corporations; there is outside
oversite, abet sloppy and corrupt, that says how those corporations can and
cant spend thier money; and there is a method of sueing those corporations
that involves outside parties.
There is also a small point that where Saudi is a united country, with a
language, religion, and history, the "united states" do not share a
language, a religion (im overlooking consumerism and "modernism"), or a
history.
Another interesting difference is that leaders from the US dont vacation in
the same places as the Saudi leaders do.
____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
Anya
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 9/1/2004 at 07:29 PM
Callei: That's interesting. A lot of conspirators here suggest that the
Bush's go hunting all the time with the Saudi leaders when on vacation.
Come to think of it, though, while we have that debt, many (not all)
countries have their own share of problems. Also, I personally believe
that we can solve the oil problem by the Alaskan pipeline (though
environmental issues could be in the way). I personally get tired of the
anti-American attitude with a lot of people. Sure we made mistakes, but so
did many other countries. Also, we're some of the bigger consumers. We
don't have to be, though. We have the proper crops, animal stock, and
resources to go on our own. And as Meranda Jade said in a post, we could
just go to finding another source of energy and tell everyone else to shove
it.
We have a history, just not much of one as the "United States" (only 200
years or so of some). Maybe the Native Americans had stories, though...
BlueLinn
Fanatic
Posts: 246 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 13/1/2004 at 09:29 AM
even love isn't free anymore...
____________________ When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?
thefacelessunholy
Occasional Poster
Posts: 21 Registered: 10/1/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 13/1/2004 at 12:55 PM
Yeah you have a point there, Grendel. I mean come on, if you go to some of
the largest, albeit richest, cities in the country, a fairly good
percentage of the population is homeless. I think that we may be one of the
richest countries in the world by monetary standards only. When it comes to
brains, well, our nation's leaders are sort of lacking. I think we have a
lot of money in this country, but our politicians just don't know how to
budget it properly. The 'United States' started as a piece of crap, and it
still is a piece of crap, really. Nobody respected this country when it
began two-hundred-some-odd years ago, and nobody respects us now. Another
way to look at it would be from a leadership standpoint. Bush's
warmongering really turned a lot of our former allies against us. When
Franklin Delano Roosevelt was in office, nobody liked us, but at least some
of them humored us by at least respecting us. Bush has Saddam, you'd expect
someone in the cabinet to just say "fuck it" and give up looking for Osama,
but I guess not. Love isn't free of risk, travel isn't free of unnecessary
security measures, and our nation's system isn't free of bugs.
____________________ Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And I am too
Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 13/1/2004 at 01:49 PM
a few "facts" to throw into this mix.
The bush family is a texas family, and has been, like many other families
involved in the oil trade, been invited to special working parties by The
Saudi royal family. That doesnt mean that they vacation together, that
means that they had long meetings with each other.
The United States doesnt have 200 years of history. The parts of the
country that became the United States at the start have some 300 years of
"history". The more recent states have some 40 years of "history" (in terms
of United States-ness) The United States Governement has 200 years of
history. there is a difference.
If OPEC pulled its oil from the US, then we would buy it from other
countries. We have done it before.
11 billion dollars of the marshall plan was given as grant money, not as
loan money. Only 1 billion was given as loan money. norawy received some
250 million in "gimme" money and 200 million in low interest long term
loans. This money was dumped into the European Economy over about 4 years.
The forgiving of debts was a seperate gift. Nearly 20 billion in debt was
forgiven.
thefacelessunholy
Occasional Poster
Posts: 21 Registered: 10/1/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 13/1/2004 at 01:55 PM
um..ok...thanks?
____________________ Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And I am too
Grendel
Occasional Poster
Posts: 40 Registered: 10/12/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 13/1/2004 at 10:49 PM
What is true about Bush + the Saudi's and the bin Laden family is that thay
have a lot of stock in the same companies, as well as positions on the
boards of several of those companies.
And I one of the Saudi's sat with Bush in the White House the first evening
he was there after 9/11 (I would call that friendship)
____________________ "There are no atheists in foxholes" is not an argument against