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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/7/2004 at 11:00 AM |
As posted in another forum...
I'll tell you what the problem with modern wicca is... they, like another
common religion, preach tolerance... but tend to be exclusionary and as
dismissive about other modes of magickal and spiritual thought as the
christian church is about all alternative religions... Not to mention
overly defensive and never truly certain of their own beliefs...
Many wiccans will mix and match, pulling from one religion and another
while leaving most of it behind. Desecrating a sacred belief to cobble
together your own religion while taking sacred names and phrases for their
own is akin to blashphemy.... there is a reason for a division between
wicca and pagan... I have seen people following Athena and Loki... but
dimissing Eris... and if you don't understand the irony and disgust of that
sentence... you need to do some research...
Next, wicca preaches "do what thou wilt, an it harm none..." that means
don't hurt ANY LIVING THING... it is impossible to do that... even a
vegetarian must destroy life to survive... Also a grgeat many wiccans
smoke, thereby huhrting the environment, those around them and
themselves... just a simple example of why most people don;t like it...
You average wiccan is so sure of their standpoint that they close off thier
mind to the point where they are unable to actually hold a conversation
without looking down on anyone who believes differntly... and that kind of
attitude is what started the fuckin burnings in the first place...
Lastly... wicca tends to be the college trendy thing to do... simply put...
like a LTG, they are not truly commited and are unable to convince
themselves, let alone those around them... Read the works of silver raven
wolf and you will see my point...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/7/2004 at 11:36 AM |
Feral, this should get interesting. Thank you.
First off, i have no problem with people who follow the religion of their
heart, whatever it is. But I'll tell you what, of all religions easily the
two most pushy, stuck up, stuck on themselves, idiot, closeminded,
overblown, and most pretentious are xianity in all it's glorious "fundie"
forms, and "paganism". Yes, I've known people who follow wicca or some
other "pagan" religion and they weren't this way (including a couple of
close friends). I am speaking GENERALLY, as in my experiences it is a
GENERAL rule, with exceptions, of course.
I think at the heart of my problem with it is that for some reason unknown
to me (maybe I put out a smell they recognize or some shit) they seem to
think I'm "one of them". I have total strangers just start talking to me
about some wickywonka whatever meeting they had last night, or some holiday
I dont' care about or know about, like I care or want to care or want to
know about their religious life. I had some 40 year old lady buying her
daughter a pentacle necklace, and she went on and on about how it has to be
descreet because she's in middle school and "YOU know how they can be, they
don't understand US they're so IGNORANT and BIGOTED those xians" and blah
blah fucking BLAH. I had another girl do the same thing, "I like how you
guys cary pentacles because nobody else DARES to because nobody understands
US (ie: her and uh...me..sure)". It was all I could do to just sell them
their crap and walk away. Which I do most of the time, just smile and nod
and walk away. I don't want to even get that person STARTED cuz I'll never
hear the end of it.
I've had pagans and wiccans shove their beliefs down my throat, got the
same reaction out of them that i do hardcore xians when I get so fed up or
pissed off that I tell them I'm a satanist, and once when I offered a
painting for a raffle prize at Sweet Spirit Candles in Renton to help
support the food bank (which my husband and I were regular customers at and
had often held food drives at work to fill their homeless cupboard by the
door) this woman, this ultimate peace and love judge not lest tho be judged
wiccan woman looks at me and says "Oh...well, that would be nice, but it's
not a painting of bodies haning from trees, right?" I could have ripped
that pentacle from her fat fucking neck and shoved it up her tyedied
asshole right there.
I know there are gong to be be people now thinking "Not all of us are like
that" and well, hating my guts and thinking of firing back and getting on
my nerves. Go ahead, but before you make a jackass of yourself, see the
top of this post and think "am I going to prove myself the excpetion or the
rule?" Even if you are the exception, i won't be mad if you yell. I'm
kind of hoping you will, because it'll lend a little life back into things
once again. ____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/7/2004 at 11:46 AM |
bettie, chillen*winks*... I am willing to bet that those taht shove
actually claim to follow the rede... makin them wiccan, not pagan... but I
could be wrong ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Devin
Administrator Posts: 317 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Online
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posted on 16/7/2004 at 01:48 PM |
I have always referred to Wicca as the training wheels of spirituality. I
think it's actually a good thing, and I'm all for wicca - but I still get
them lashing out at me for my "condescending attitude" - or for "belittling
their beliefs" or some crap. I don't look down on wicca any more than I
look down on training wheels on a bike. It's a necessary part of some
people's development and should be treated as such.
The difference between training wheels and wicca is that when there's
training wheels on your bike - you know it. You are under no illusion that
you are riding the bike on your own. You know exactly why those wheels are
on there, and you know you'd fall down if there were no wheels.
With wicca, people don't notice that they are using it as a crutch between
organized religion and finding their own spirituality. Organized religion
is for people who don't do well with metaphor (and therefore won't get the
full meaning of this post), and wicca helps them associate symbolism with
actions in a way that's acceptable to their religious socialization. This
is a good thing - but it puts them in the position of the kid on the bike
with the training wheels, and this wounds their ego. They are just
protecting their ego when they lash back by yelling "you don't even HAVE a
bike".
Just smile at them, pat them on the head, and get in your car and drive
away. ____________________ So Sayeth Me |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/7/2004 at 03:19 PM |
I started studying Wicca maybe 3 years ago, partly to get some experience
in something other than Christianity, and partly to better understand my
worst enemy, who prides herself on being a 3rd generation witch. I was
very attracted to it at first. But soon I got kind of sick of it. I mean,
it has almost as many arbitrary rules as Chrisitianity, and takes just as
much blind faith. I came to realize that I really don't want to be part of
any religion, although I do believe that the supernatural exists. I just
don't want anyone else to try to spell it out for me.
I don't feel that I need a pentacle to protect me, any more than I feel I
need to pray to God for angelic protection. If I need protection, I lock
the door, put on my seat-belt, or whatever practical form of
self-preservation fits the occasion, and then I put myself in a safe place
mentally. If I have any sort of amulet or ritual, it's something I came
across myself, and its power lies more in the fact that it instantly puts
me in that protected mode, rather than being in itself protective. If I
lose that object, I don't lose any degree of protection.
The problem with any organized religion, be it Wicca or Christianity, is
that it tends to lay down what people should be discovering for themselves.
How many witches depend on a pentacle just because they've been told it
will protect them? How much more special would it be for them to discover
their very own personal "protective" object? And how many Christians
panic, because they realize that they've driven a few miles without saying
the proper prayer for safe travel? I've seen it happen and it's sad. Not
only do these people all end up nearly carbon copies of each other, but
they also lose the security of knowing that their power doesn't lie in a
properly sactioned object or set of words.
Now, I know there are certainly both witches and Christians who have got
that all figured out, but that's not the point. The thing is, these people
would be equally powerful without their religion's help. They just choose
that religion because they like it. Or it's what they're used to. But far
too many people hand over their own power to a set of rules and
regulations.
And it is also true that Wiccans can be as annoyingly stuck on their
religion as any fanatical Christian. Yes, you generally avoid the
proselytizing, which is nice in a way, but then again you have to deal with
the whole "you aren't good enough to be one of us anyway" deal. At least
Christians are humble enough to see any human as a candidate for their
religion. If you listened to some Wiccans, you would think that they were
somehow an entirely different breed, and born that way, and you aren't, so
you'll never be a witch, and powerful like them. Again, not all Wiccans
are like that, of course, just as all Christians are not judgemental
fire-and-brimstone bastards, but enough of them are to make me wary when I
see that pointy little pentacle hanging around some girl's neck.
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism" |
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/7/2004 at 03:27 PM |
Very good devin, and like I said I don't have a problem with the religion
itself, nor the idea of it, nor people who subscribe to that belief
system.....it is, in fact, a HUGE problem with "training wheel" people,
because in my experience they're GODDAMNED PUSHY and for some reason they
fixate towards ME.
And feral, i have no idea what "path" they're on, I don't even ask cuz
well...I don't care. I get BOTH "pagan" and "Wiccan" shovings.
Oh, and I worked with two once, one didn't bother me, she didn't talk about
it incessantly like it made her special or cool, but the other
one....*shudder* She wouldn't shut up about it, her holidays, her
persecution, her stupid meetings, until finally I yelled "SHUT UP! I
WORSHIP THE GODDAMNED DEVIL I DON"T CARE!". This was after having to
listen to her for MONTHS and the final straw was at our store's "holiday"
party, where she gave me a funny look and asked why I had an xmas tree up,
why I was watching something on jesus on discovery channel, and then walked
around saying "wow the atmosphere is so clean nobody has died here."
Maybe I should sneak over to her apartment and unscrew her training wheels
with a hammer.
Oh, and schitz, I totally hear you on that "generational" bullshit. I
always wanted to track down someone's grandma or mother and be like "excuse
me, are you a witch like your daughter/grandaughter says?" and see if their
line goes into history or up their butts.
[Edited on 7/16/2004 by bettie_x] ____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/7/2004 at 02:49 AM |
i am a third generation asshole... ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/7/2004 at 03:21 AM |
I'm a fourth generation cultie, but you don't hear me claiming that makes
me any better!
Funny thing is, this girl IS a 3rd generation witch. I know her mother
well, and I've met her grandmother. Funnier thing is - her mother,
although I like her a lot, is a raging alcoholic and maneater and not very
in touch with reality, and her grandmother wants nothing to do with either
of them, and has taken a liking to me and my fiance. Go figure. ____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism" |
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/7/2004 at 06:10 AM |
Shiz, i think you are one letter off.... I think that letter is "B". Try it
on the front of "itch" and i think it will make all three of those
degranged women make more sense. ____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away. |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/7/2004 at 06:21 AM |
Callei, I think you hit the nail on the head. ____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and
the
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dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism" |
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Domkitten
Fanatic Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/7/2004 at 07:21 PM |
Generally I have no more beef with the wiccan/pagan/alternative religion
crowd than I do with your general religious crowd. Most people, that is,
viewing religion as a private matter and only making it public one to
correct the horribly stupid.
I think it would be fair to say that a great deal has been learned from
both bettie and Shciz during long diatribes and tedious months spent
correcting the stupid. However, the stupid still exist.
As Feral pointed out in his initial post, many of the teenagers who take up
wicca/witchcraft/paganism/alternative religion, and unfortunately many
adults as well, never seem to both taking any time to get their facts, or
their stories straight. Much like fundamentalist Christians, the assume
that their belief is correct because they believe it, and cannot wait to
spout off how much “witchy” they are whenever possible.
Of course, you can’t help but to occasionally laugh at them, because they
are pretty damn funny. I especially love the ones who will go on about:
“Well, I’m a seventh level witch, and next month I’ll be working towards my
ascension to the next plain of existence when I’ll learn to transform
mysell…….” Oh, I’m sorry was I laughing to loud for you to continue?
Generational’s, of course, are their own level of fun, and then you have
the real crazies that will go on about how good, or evil ever person they
meet is. I once had an acquaintance who loved going on about how a women
she met was really a black witch, but of course the woman in question
didn’t know about it, however said acquaintance could tell that she was
subconsciously trying to put a spell on her…. She would go on like that for
hours.
A particular form that really tends to irritate me, as I have point out in
other places, is the neo-pagan who makes every effort to subtly pronounce
their choice of religion at any possible opportunity. Generally this
involves twisting and destroying blasphemies to suit ones cause. My current
favorite is “shut the hells up!” which sounded so stupid, forced, and
contrived when I read it that I could not contain my rage. If your going to
invoke the various hells at your disposal in an invective than at least try
to be original about it.
Would it kill one to say “I’ll fill my mouth with pitch from the seven
nether hells before speaking again!” or perhaps “By the demons in all the
hells I shall speak no more!” Juice it up a little if you absolutely most
pluralize. The same for invoking gods, and goddesses. I mean, why say “oh
my goddess” when you can say something more ear catching and original like
“by the cunt of the sweet merry mother goddess!” or “I swear by Dina’s
nipples!” I mean, really if you must invoke, invoke well.
I would have to agree with Devin’s take on wicca as a training religion
that begins to bring one a greater understanding of the great and groovy
vibe, and eventually some of us do get past all the silliness, and the
stupidity (I think I did at some point) to come out on the other side,
healthier happier and hopefully a little wiser.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus |
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/7/2004 at 11:38 PM |
if I get one more 'blessed be' from a total stranger again I swear to
frickin hades I'm gonna stab a fork in their eye. No joke. Of everything,
EVERYTHING, I hate that the most. ____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 01:12 AM |
What i love is the complete level of ignorance involved in this and other
religions. the burning times... they keep talking about the witches
burned... when only one was actually a witch... and that one walked away,
one of 4 people acquitted...
BUT I love the fact that they will say that the upside down pentacle has
been a symbol of negativity and evil for centuries, when in reality in
european witchcraft the upside down is the pentamorph and used for
"deestructive workings (such as breaking a hex, or massive defense) ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Bane
Occasional Poster Posts: 28 Registered: 14/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 02:36 AM |
uhm.... i got one question....
What IS Wicca?
and what is this Pagan stuff?
And why is christianism intolerant?
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 06:01 AM |
www.altavista.com can be very useful instances such as this ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 06:41 AM |
Okay I've been trying not to post in the forum but alas I can resist no
longer....
I have alot of Wiccans in my life but none of them can really tell mee much
about it. I get the impression they really dont understand it much
themselves. Which is okay I suppose since one of the ideas that most
Wiccans convey is that it is supposed to be a very intuitive mindset.
The trouble is that most people seem to trun to Wicca because they realize
that the Xian church is a huge load of culty bullshit and are never
deprogrammed form the cult. The result is that they continue in a Xian
mindset. They stay preachy, dogmatic, and love to point out what is "evil"
in the world today.
It's really a shame. I find the idea of nature worship to be appealing.
If anyone wants to get mee really pissed-off they can bring up Alexander
Summers... ____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
-ickgirl |
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Bane
Occasional Poster Posts: 28 Registered: 14/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 05:54 AM |
@ferraluce: I'd like to have the matter explained by the users HERE and not
to pick up every little piece by myself.
btw. altavista sucks....
if anybody would ask me, what i believe in (sort of Christianism), i would
explain it... and not point to a fuckin' metacrawler....
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 06:43 AM |
Bane: you will find that in matters such as religion, it is best to do the
research before entering a conversation...
But christianity is intollerant because the book says "I am the way the
truth and the life" leaving no path other than that which is outlined in
the book. As an example... I cite the crusades... "you do not believe in my
god so I am going to kill you" seems pretty damn intollerant to me...
Simple definition frrom dictionary.com
Wicca: A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various
pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother
goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
Pagan: One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper
of a polytheistic religion ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 07:18 AM |
Also bane... you asked waht is wicca... not what I believe... major
difference ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 07:43 AM |
I can beleive it feral, you are being "nice" to Bane. that is sooo
strange.
Bane: you want to know, go find someone that wants to tell you about other
religions. I think, only think, that we have 2 wiccans, or post-wiccans on
this site and, depending on definition, no Pagans (but lots of other
religions that dont think of themselves in terms of their
non-Christian-ness), and a few heathen also know as Satanists, Atheists,
and Agnostics, at least to Christians. none of them seem to want to tell
you all about it in this forum. Not because you didnt ask nicely or because
they dont want thier religion torn apart by your brain, but rather because
there are whole websites devoted to this sort of thing, and this isnt one
of them.
If you want to take a class on comparative religions or world religions, im
sure that your local college offers them as well as any Wiccan or Pagen
bookshops or churchs in your area. ____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away. |
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