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Psychopixi
Fanatic Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 26/2/2008 at 05:04 PM |
Has anyone else been reading up on this after the recent demonstrations?
Did you even notice there were demonstrations?
If not, go read through the links here: http://psychopixi.livejournal.com/321106.html.
What do you think?
I think that the 'Church of Scientology' group should not be allowed to
call itself a religious organisation, based on the fact that it charges
obscene amounts of money for access to its religious writings.
I think that religious information should be free, although the CoS should
not be shut down or prevented for charging for its services. The fact that
it does charge, however, mean it is more like the bookstore that
sells a bible, than a church where you can read one for free.
Once the CoS is recognised as a business, its practises can then be
investigated without people worrying about being accused of 'religious
discrimination'. This is why it is important that the CoS as an
organisation should be noted to be different from the religion of
Scientology. Once it can be investigated, action can be taken if the
stories about it are proven to be true.
Your views?
(Edited for typos)
[Edited on 2/27/2008 by Psychopixi] ____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life. |
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Bob
Occasional Poster Posts: 14 Registered: 18/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 3/3/2008 at 10:40 AM |
Bombing planned parenthoods. Inquisition. crusades. oh, right - we're
talking about individuals, not mas genocide. my bad.
and I say it again. Jjust because you work yourself into a corner where you
have LIMITED options does not mean you are not free to make the choices.
how is this bullshit any worse than police treatment of minorities in the
inner city? or starvation of children because the top 5 have 95%, etc?
my point is that they join a religion, and are afraid to leave. when my
best friend was involved in a satanic cult, he got out. he was cut, his
house burned. but he got out. so, since they join, they CAN get out. |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/3/2008 at 07:04 AM |
Well, there was a day when the Catholic Church enforced their membership a
lot more firmly than they do now, destroying both infidels (Crusades) and
heretics (no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!). Not to mention the
fact that its leaders tended to be filthy rich, living off of money the
brainwashed followers paid in order to buy salvation for their souls. And
they were even worse about sharing their information - keeping everything
in Latin so the common man could not read things from the source, but only
receive it through the filter of a church official.
It is almost certainly true that L. Ron Hubbard had ulterior motives when
he created Scientology. And it is true that the organization has great
power today. But when you probe into the beginnings of many religions, you
will often find fanaticism, insanity, mind control, or other unsavories,
thinly veiled by a pretty story of salvation for the elite who follow this
path, and destruction for those who don't take the bait.
Scientology is almost certainly a very nasty operation, and the amount of
money it charges its followers and their treatment and particularly the
treatment of those who fail to conform or dare to publicly expose them is
very alarming. But no worse than other organizations that call themselves
religions. Compared to the Catholic church, (centuries ago, granted)
they're still pretty tame.
Scientology actually seems a lot like my childhood church, at least in the
older days. It's a couple of generations after the death of the founder,
and things have withered considerably since then. But there was the
element of deprivation and mistreatment of members in the name of
"purification", often resulting in suspicious deaths, deep brainwashing,
and people giving up all they own, like my great-grandfather who sold his
rich farm in the midwest and donated it all to the church to buy them a
farm, which I was actually born on.
From my personal experience, and the history of my church and family that I
have been taught since a very young age, and the studies I have conducted
recently, I am of the opinion that, unfortunately, just because a religion
was started for unsavory reasons (the founder of mine was a megalomaniac,
and either mentally ill (possibly schizophrenic) or deliberately made up
things to ensnare his followers) or because brainwashing techniques are
employed or too much money is being required as a donation (in the early
days of my church, if you really wanted to be a part of it, you gave all
you had) that does not mean it is not a religion. It means it is a sick,
abusive, cultish religion.
I think that a close watch should be made on such places for evidence of
cruelty, abuse, and suspicious death of the members (or detractors) or
other illegal activities, and such should be fully prosecuted. As for the
members "caught" in the church, unfortunately some people choose to enter
such organizations willy-nilly without finding out what lies under the
surface, and that is their decision, and they unfortunately bear the
consequences of their own choices. Just like someone who engages in any
other risky activity. What saddens me is the children raised in such an
environment - it is harder for them. But even though it is hard to break
free from places like this, it is possible. Even after being brainwashed.
It requires turning your mind back on, rather than relinquishing control
like a sheep being led to the slaughter. It takes effort, and strength of
will, and courage.
I had to do that, to a lesser degree, since the church I am from has lost
so much power since its golden days. The Bible School I attended from age
18 to age 20 tried very hard, though, and I actually tried to kill myself
from the pressure while I was there. I might never have left, except a
staff couple who worked at the school, the only people there who showed any
real care for me, ended up breaking free about the same time, and I rode
some on their courage.
I'm going to include some links about my church, just for comparison - in
one, they comment on how much stronger this church would have been if it
had been founded in the information era, with television and other ways to
spread the word. I don't know - it was scary enough just done by word of
mouth.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/WhatSp
irtPart6.html
this is a very in depth and techinical piece - kind of difficult
reading.
http://www.fwselijah.com/
this is a site founded by escaping members of the church - a lot of
personal accounts, and a lot of people I personally know wrote stuff on
it.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,772039,00.
html
this is about my Great-Uncle Harry - still "faithful"
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C0CE5DF1E31
E233A2575AC2A9669D946096D6CF
article about the arrest of the church founder for man slaughter.
http://www.ntskeptics.org/1991/1991mayjune/mayjune1991.htm<
/a>
newsletter that interestingly enough has an article about both Scientology,
and my church
http://www.kingdomchristianministries.org/churches/FAQ.htm<
/a>
my ex-church's "official" position today - they are not quite so dismissing
of F.W. Sandford in the Bible School, though. At least not once you've
passed the first year.
[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Schizo]
[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Schizo]
[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Schizo] ____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism" |
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Merry_Widow
Fanatic Posts: 598 Registered: 24/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/3/2008 at 11:31 AM |
You know, the last time I checked with a recovering Catholic, the Catholic
church didn't forge bomb threats or attempt to muddle his finances or any
number of other things. I do believe his mother muttered a few things at
him under her breath in Spanish, whocked him upside the head, and then sent
him home with a plate of tamales.
Consequences are one thing, but blatantly illegal actions are another, and
it calls into question the character of the entire organization. ____________________ Okay, dazzle me. |
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Bob
Occasional Poster Posts: 14 Registered: 18/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/3/2008 at 08:14 AM |
it is as much a business as teh catholic church or the first satanic church
of anton levay. I agree that all religious entities, at least financially,
should be subject to the same laws as businesses, i do not think ONE
religious entity should be singled out.
if leaving an organization means you can be destroyed, that means there is
consequences for your actions, not that you are not free to make them.
desertion from any post bears the same kind of weight. army, cult,
religious organization, biker gang. just because you work yourself into a
corner where you have LIMITED options does not mean you are not free to
make the choices. |
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Psychopixi
Fanatic Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/3/2008 at 02:38 AM |
quote: Thrills! Chills! Profits!
Banned by Germany, the people who brought us the Reich
series!!
*lmao*
quote: They really should be
outlawed as a Ponzi scheme
*Googles 'Ponzi'*
Yes! Yes, definitely! It's people like Tom Cruise and John Travolta (as
well as the core members) that reap the rewards of the money of the rest,
not to mention the near-slave-labour of the members who work in places like
the celebrity retreat.
P.S. That thing you didn't mention; I saw that on Enturbulation a few days
ago. Produced a *headdesk* moment. ____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life. |
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Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 29/2/2008 at 11:43 PM |
quote: I won't mention the 1934
book, Scientologie, that may have been the source of all of this off the
record.
If you're going to not-mention something, you should really provide a link.
http://www.iheartchaos.com/2008/02/27/did-lron-hubbard-plag
arize-scientology-the-more-you-know/ ____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again." |
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Rogue
Member Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 29/2/2008 at 08:46 PM |
Well, not to mention the threat and murder of those who leave the
organisation. I have known several individuals who would be called wealthy
that were bankrupted trying to become "clear", which is a low level of OT,
to the tune of $200k a year or more in 1980s US dollars. If you read up,
Hubbard had a chat with Heinlein, wherein LRH said that if you wanted to
become really rich, you should start a religion and not write books. A few
years later when Heinlein was not there to call his bluff,
sciencefictionology was born. DC-8's in space! Volcanoes exploded with
hydrogen bombs to kill billions of dead souls! Thrills! Chills! Profits!
Banned by Germany, the people who brought us the Reich series!! They
really should be outlawed as a Ponzi scheme, or treated as a cult like the
Branch Davidians and just burned down, starting with Tom Cruise Control.
Free Katie!
I won't mention the 1934 book, Scientologie, that may have been the source
of all of this off the record. ____________________ Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time. |
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Psychopixi
Fanatic Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 29/2/2008 at 04:09 AM |
quote: Why does it need to be a
business?
Because it operates like one. The CoS claims to have the knowledge which
will save mankind, and yet they restrict access to this knowledge to
people who have paid alarming amounts of money. To me, this indicates that
their primary objective is to make money.
quote: as they progress through
the echelons of the organization, they get a feel for waht they are getting
into adn are free to walk away
Apart from the fact that they're not really free.
For example; if you take course A, then course B, then course C, then
somehow have problems with course D, you can be deemed to have not
understood any of the previous teachings, and you must take courses A, B
and C again (and pay for them again).
Another example; People who question scientology, or disagree with its
teachings are declared as 'suppressive persons' (check the links for more
information). Suppressive people are 'fair game'. If someone has been
declared as 'fair game' scientologists believe that that person can be
'destroyed'. (Check the links.) If you leave the CoS you know you will be
declared as 'fair game' - good incentive to NOT leave - who'd want to be
treated like Paulette Cooper (Links!)?.
Another example: If you are a member of the CoS, and anyone tries to
question you in its teachings, or point out any flaws, you must
'disconnect' from the 'suppressive person'. This doesn't matter if they're
your friend, lover, mother. You are to have no more to do with them. If you
have friends and family in the CoS, and you leave, you will be deemed a
'suppressive person', and they must 'disconnect' from you - you will not
see those people again - good incentive not to leave.
Another example: More psychological than anything - if you've spent
hundreds of thousands of dollars on something, you are going to be
desperate to be proven right. You are not going to want to admit, even in
the face of overwhelming evidence, that you might be wrong. Once you get
suckered in, they keep you suckered.
Another example: Part of the brainwashing... sorry, training you go
through encourages blind obedience, and an ability to switch off from any
kind of debate. You are taught that you do not need to think for yourself;
the CoS will give you all the answers you need.
To go back to your question, why does it need to be a business. It
can be called a business because that it how it operates. It
should be called a business because then people will be able to make
an informed choice about whether they want to join or not, and it will be
easier for them to leave if they become disillusioned with it. ____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life. |
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littlegothgirlthatcould
Member Posts: 100 Registered: 13/2/2007 Status: Offline
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posted on 28/2/2008 at 09:32 PM |
Why does it need to be a business? I think I agree with Bob. ____________________ [[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up and
learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]] |
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Bob
Occasional Poster Posts: 14 Registered: 18/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 28/2/2008 at 09:30 PM |
Why does it need to be a business? as they progress through the echelons of
the organization, they get a feel for waht they are getting into adn are
free to walk away
anyone who subjects themselves to a religion does it to themselves. if they
are not bright enough to see what is happening, then they deserve what they
get
it was said that religion is the opiate of the masses, and frankly if it
makes them feel good, then they should do it as it costs less than
amusement parks |
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Psychopixi
Fanatic Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 27/2/2008 at 10:47 AM |
That is a lot of money to give, and I think it would be worse for poorer
people who are less able to spare the money, even if it is a smaller
amount. From what I've read though, the practise of tithing seems to be a
little bit controversial, with people claiming that as it is an Old
Testament idea, it does not necessarily have a place in modern
Christianity. That's a step in the right direction, IMHO.
quote: The only stories I have
seen about the behavior of scientologists were in tabloids. Never seen a
reputable news agency report on them. I am not saying there have been none,
but I haven't seen any.
I strongly suggest you google for 'operation freak out', 'operation snow
white', 'fair game policy' or 'paulette cooper'. Alternatively you can
check out the list of links in my journal, linked in the first post.
quote: I don't believe anything
should be done about something that people subject THEMSELVES
to.
Agreed, provided they have given informed consent. This is why I have an
issue with the organisation. If, after it has been declared a business,
people still want to pay ridiculous sums of money to be brainwashed, then
they can. But they should be informed - by external agencies if the CoS
refuse to do so - before hand, before paying any money, exactly what will
be happening to them in the courses they pay for. ____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life. |
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Bob
Occasional Poster Posts: 14 Registered: 18/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 27/2/2008 at 07:39 AM |
bible demands 10% as a tithe.
The average income of a catholic family (according to the vatican polls) is
roughly 75k per year.
10% of 75 k is 7500. Assuming you retire at 65, that's 47 years of tithing.
(from 18-65). That works out to 352,500. Take into account mileage, time
off for religious holidays, etc. it is roughly the same.
My apologies. By religion, I mean organization. that is my frame of
reference. I believe that religion and belief are two totally different
things. Every time you hear of a problem with a religion, it is with the
institution, not the believers.
The only stories I have seen about the behavior fo scientologists were in
tabloids. Never seen a reputable news agency report on them. I am not
saying there have been none, but I haven't seen any. These stories may be
true, or they may be like the stories about drug needles and gas pumps and
gang members under cars - urban fantasy.
I know of two people that come from terribly religious backgrounds. This
girl I know of was in a religious cult in new england. Some very nasty shit
went down. when she had the chance, she walked out. Another was involved in
a group of, for lack of a better word, devil entheusiasts (not satanists,
at least not satanic church satanists). He up and walked away. If the
scientologists were so bad and oppressive, then their people could, oh I
don't know, walk away.
I don't believe anything should be done about something that people subject
THEMSELVES to. If I were to get into a fight for the way people are
treated, it would be the plight of the poor, genital mutilation or the
persecution of voudoun practitioners. But when people have a faith that
they join, and the religious institution treats them a certain way, and
they continue to do it, that is their own business and choice. you cannot
save the clueless, and I believe it is a mistake to try.
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Psychopixi
Fanatic Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 27/2/2008 at 05:34 AM |
Okay Bob, let's have a look at your reply.
quote: it takes less of an
investment than christianity. the require (at least from the devout) 10% of
your income. couple grand a year, minimum.
Um, no. Proof please.
Find me a website, or reference a new article, whatever, that details how
Christianity requires that much of an investment from its followers.
Maybe you didn't mean Christianity in general, maybe you were thinking of a
smaller subset?
Or maybe you were thinking of the 'donations' people are talked into
giving, out of fear or guilt. I have issues with that too, but I don't
think it's directly comparable with the CoS. If you're a member of the CoS
you have to pay for access to the religious information; you can only be
given more information once you have paid for it. At least
Christianity's teachings are free.
Now check out the links I posted, and read the information on the prices
the CoS charges for its courses. A commonly quoted figure is
$360,000 to attain the level of OTIII.
quote: who are we to say that
their religion needs investigating?
I never said that. In fact I tried to make it obvious that that was
not what I meant; re-read my initial post if you don't get this.
Their religion is fine. People can believe whatever they want. The
organisation called the 'Church' of Scientology is what is troubling
me. Again, just try taking the time to read through the links I posted, and
check out some of the personal accounts.
The fact that the CoS charges for courses means it is more like a business
than a religious organisation, and so it should be treated as such. Once it
can be investigated like any other business, the stories of brainwashing,
abuse and neglect of the people involved in the organisation can be
investigated properly, and action can be taken to help the people who need
it, and prosecute those who caused the suffering.
While their religious views are certainly rather wacky, what I want to know
is whether other people are as disturbed by the CoS as I am.
Do you think that they should be allowed to remain a religious
organisation? Justify your answer. What makes them different to the
bookshop that sells a Bible?
Do you think the stories circulating about what life is like for members of
the CoS are true? If you do, don't you think that something should be done?
If you don't, can you explain why not? ____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life. |
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Bob
Occasional Poster Posts: 14 Registered: 18/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 27/2/2008 at 12:54 AM |
it takes less of an investment than christianity. the require (at least
from the devout) 10% of your income. couple grand a year, minimum. hell,
seems like a bargain to me.
who are we to say that their religion needs investigating? as long as they
avoid nikes and kool-aid, we should just let em be. I, however, shall don
my tin-foil fedora to negate their awesome mental powers. |
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