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Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 3/11/2004 at 12:53 PM |
Bush got reelected, and the elephants control both the house and the
senate... We're in for a wonderful next four years. I'm kinda disappointed
that -this- is supposedly what the people wanted...
But then again, what with the current rift in the nation, maybe this will
egg more people over to the left...
Please submit your rants, discussions, death threats, etc. on the election
below.
(Note: Death threats probably wouldn't be a good idea...) ____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!
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Wok
Occasional Poster   Posts: 25 Registered: 14/11/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/1/2005 at 09:25 AM |
quote:
conquered not long after
building because he decalred himself a sovereign
nation?
But an army of lawyers is so much more effective.
I used to live in Nottingham. So if its possible somehow I'd like to give
this crackpot scheme a try. I'll go and find out if it is... technically.
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KittyGoesMrow
Fanatic   Posts: 218 Registered: 30/4/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/1/2005 at 10:28 PM |
| That sounds like a splendid idea... I think I'll go buy rons of sand and
make me an island! or alot of inflaitable rafts... Hmmm ____________________
Anata ga sabishii toki, bokumo sabishii n da yo
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MystryssRavynDarque
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 648 Registered: 24/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/1/2005 at 09:42 AM |
| What about the man who built himself an island in the Carribean and was
conquered not long after building because he decalred himself a sovereign
nation? ____________________
"People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I don't
think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is the
experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell
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W0rmW00d
Fanatic  Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/1/2005 at 08:52 AM |
America, land of the free? You aren't even free to be free from the free in
America according to that law. When did that ammendment come about? Are new
states allowed? Although they fall under federal jurisdiction as well they
are accorded a fair bit of autonomy in government, aren't they? That could
be a place to start I suppose.
I must find out about any such laws in England. If its possible is anyone
else up for it? An army of two has twice the chance of an army of one. Come
on folks, I'm offering true socialism, a break from the mundanity of day to
day western living and, should anyone want it, diplomatic immunity once we
get a diplomatic foothold.
____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/1/2005 at 07:32 AM |
| Constitutional amendmends prevent land within our borders from pulling away
any more... it is considered and act of war... you really would be an army
of one ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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W0rmW00d
Fanatic Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/1/2005 at 05:14 PM |
| Nottingham. I didn't mean buy the land, I meant annex it, as befits the
anti-capitalist nature of the commune. Although legitimate purchase would
probably give me greater diplomatic leverage which I may need to avoid
having the land annexed back. ____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
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Wok
Occasional Poster Posts: 25 Registered: 14/11/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 16/1/2005 at 03:08 PM |
What I meant was after four more years of Bush-style government the
electorate might go- "Screw! I'm voting for Hilary."
How much does a square metre of land cost? I always wanted to create a
country of one person. Smallest country ever. Uh, anyway. Where do you live
WormWood; Nottinghamshire, Derby, Leics, Lincoln?
[Edited on 16/1/2005 by Wok]
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KittyGoesMrow
Fanatic Posts: 218 Registered: 30/4/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 15/1/2005 at 12:44 PM |
| Yeah but... once you get used to it it would balance out with your income
i'm sure..... or hoping. ____________________
Anata ga sabishii toki, bokumo sabishii n da yo
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W0rmW00d
Fanatic Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 15/1/2005 at 08:08 AM |
| Finland is exceptionally expensive though. I would like to just claim a bit
of the East Midlands and declare it seperate. Then I could have a
government that I would like. A socialist commune of one or something.... ____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
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KittyGoesMrow
Fanatic Posts: 218 Registered: 30/4/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/1/2005 at 09:02 PM |
| Can I just move to Finland?.... Their president is a woman. And if you
don't behave it's just so dark and cold there they could stick your ass
naked outside for a bit... ____________________
Anata ga sabishii toki, bokumo sabishii n da yo
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W0rmW00d
Fanatic Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/1/2005 at 06:51 PM |
What Britain did in '97 was vote out a weak and virtually unelectable
candidate who had totally failed to continue where his predecessor had left
off in favour of a fresh, charismatic candidate promising wholesale change
in the wake of the Thatcher years.
Anyone see that situation repeating itself anytime soon? No, because it
lacks the prerequisites: A weak candidate who had failed to carry on in the
same way as the last succesful leader, and a charismatic candidate offering
wholesale change.
NB offering does not mean giving, or even necessarily promising. Though he
did. Lying bastard. Well, at least he isnt Thatcher. See how easy lesser of
two evils is? ____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
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Anonymous
 Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/1/2005 at 06:44 PM |
Maybe your country will do what England did back in 1997 to the Tory
(Conservative) Party...
Hehe, they haven't been back since. And now we might be having a 3 party
system if peoples opinions change, which they are. Slowly.
I'd still like Proportional Representation here though, if only because it
is more democratic than the 'first-past-the-post' system we have in the U.K
and the US. Well, I can dream.
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/1/2005 at 05:41 PM |
Then there is another obstacle. Even if all those dissatisfied with the
two-party system could be organized to vote simultaneously, then how do you
decide which party is going to be the one they vote for? Some in heart are
Green, some Libertarian, some Communist, some who knows what. If all the
voters were to truly vote their conscience, I think it is safe to say that
a Democrat or Republican would win, simply because even our third-party
voters would be split. But to organize them to sponsor a break-through
candidate would not only be incredibly difficult, but would also involve
many people now voting for, in their minds, the lesser of three evils,
instead of just the lesser of two.
I think that perhaps one of the strongest ways to open the door to new
parties potentially winning office would be to educate the children and
youth of our country. They are our future voters, and, unlike the 60 year
old who has been voting Republican since he was 18, these people are still
forming their opinions on politics, and would be more open to consider
something a little different.
Also, somehow money must be raised to properly advertise lesser known
parties, throughout the year, but especially during voting years.
My own politics have been developing over the past few years. In my first
election, I voted Republican because that's what I'd always been told was
right. By the second, I was disillusioned by all the things that I had
been told, but still hadn't gotten things organized in my mind to know what
I did want politically, so I didn't vote. I didn't vote this year either,
because I refused to vote for a scumbag, and I really didn't know that much
about my alternatives. Next time a presidential election comes around, I
intend to conduct a little more research, and find the candidate that best
suits what I think America needs. I've gotten far enough in life to know
what I think, and I'm ready for this now.
Practically speaking, I don't really expect a third party to break through
the two-party barrier any time soon, but I think it can be done. I hope it
is done. I appreciate people like Mono who have forced me to really think
these things through, and to neither ride on what I have always been told,
nor comfortably ignore the issue altogether. I may never be much of a
political crusader, but I plan on doing my little bit, and if the topic
comes up in my everday conversation, I certainly intend to plant a few
seeds in some people's minds. It's the least I can do. ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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W0rmW00d
Fanatic Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/1/2005 at 06:45 PM |
Mono: the situation is self perpetuating. Day in day out there is a two
party system, which means that people see a two party system, which means
that they think it is a two party system, which means that they perpetuate
the two party system, which means that people see a two party system.....
How it originated is not the issue. I don't think that it has always been
like that. America once truly was the land of the free. It was also the
land of the enslaved, but after that it was the land of the free. The U.S.
was once the goldern standard.
I disagree that one gets the government they deserves, maybe I will deserve
the shite government I end up with when I abstain from voting (but
unfortunately my vote truly wont change anything. for some reason people
seem to actually like tony blair), what about the people who vote with
their hearts to vote green? Do they deserve Bush? Poor bastards all.
It is not the fact that nothing can be done that makes me fatalistic, it is
the fact that nothing is done. Ever. You can shout it all you want, but
people just look at you funny and go about their lives. Same when I shout
it, or when Feral shouts it, or when some chubby fellow with a beard tells
you on a documentary. The fact is (and the answer to many of your
questions) that many people are comfortable and reasonably happy, or at
least as happy as they think they know how to be. They don't want to change
anything. What if it gets a little worse? Fuck me, what if that odd chap
who likes being nice to people raises taxes? They will be out of pockey a
cent in the dollar? SHIT THE WORLD IS FALLING.
The people who beleive that the state of affairs is self perpetuating are
very small, i suspect. The people who use it as a pretext to let it be
because they heard it from a man in a very clever looking suit and haircut
are, I imagine, a lot higher. Those who don't care because they are
comfortable, they are the highest of all. They are the problem, thats why
its a workers revolution in the works of Karl Marx.
Clarification point, I didn't mean to say that you said that the past and
the present were the same, I meant to say that in a self perpetuating loop
once you have started the past and the present are the same.
Alternative prescription for democracy: Sick-note, early retirement.
International Communism.
But a cold and broken hallelujah to Mono's words of wisdom from the last
post with one proviso. I sincerely hope that the Star Chamber reference was
not citing Wolsey's (of Henry VIII of England fame) Star Chamber as
'never-necessary.'
Wolsey's attempts at a humanistic justice system was one of the foundations
of the concept of impartial justice. The same impartial justice which has
been so corrupted, but which is still the golden standard for which
idealists strive. It was the first attempt (or at least thought to be) at
such a thing in the world ever, where a rich man could be tried against a
serf and lose.
However, as if to set the tone, it was exploited to Wolsey's gain.
Of course if it is a different Star-Chamber to which you refer, or if the
Star Chamber is the name of the room in which the Electoral College meet
this has no relevance.
____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/1/2005 at 06:19 PM |
Yes, but how to simultaneously spread the shame to enough Americans? You
may know it, I may know it, we may be able to convince a few people around
us, but how to give motivation and courage to enough people to actually
make a practical difference?
I know many, many people who WOULD vote third-party if they thought for a
split-second that it would actually result in anything. Many who are
intelligent, well-meaning people who would do their duty, but are confused
as to what that duty is.
I agree with you about the changes that need to be made, but how, in
practical terms, are we to implement these changes? How do we gather
together the silent, despairing masses, and let them know how great their
number is and how powerful they could be if they work together?
This is why so many otherwise intelligent and clear-thinking people either
abstain from voting or grudgingly cast a vote just to outweigh someone they
really don't want, even if they still don't like the candidate they're
voting for. We need to find a way to lift the feeling of powerlessness and
futility from our potential third-party voters if anything is to be
accomplished. That is perhaps the greatest enemy to our goal at the
moment. ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Monolycus
Fanatic  Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/1/2005 at 02:55 PM |
quote:
I think the main obstacle
in the way of having a third-party candidate in office is almost certainly
the fact that no one thinks their vote will be backed up sufficiently to
get the job done. If somehow the number of Americans who would like to see
a third party candidate as President could be verified, if they could all
be informed of this number, and could be organized to make a coordinated
showing at the polls, then I have no doubt that there would be sufficient
voters to overturn the tyranny of the two-party system. But how to do
this?
Schiz: I know what should do it and doesn't. Shame. Americans
should be ashamed that former Soviet bloc nations have a binding
none-of-the-above option to curtail corrupt entrenchment. Americans should
be ashamed that people in the Ukraine, who have suffered 80 years of gulags
and purges and should have their spirits entirely broken, won't take
election fraud lying down. Americans should be ashamed that they can not
hold more than a single issue and two candidates in their heads at a time
when our neighbours to the north and south as well as most of Europe have
engaged multiple parties. Americans should be ashamed that they have taken
it upon themselves to "arrange" a democracy in Iraq when we have
demonstrated via Florida and Ohio that even with international assistance
and regulation we aren't capable of running a clean election on our own
soil. Americans should be ashamed that we still employ the never-necessary
Star Chamber that is the electoral college to insure that there has never
been a legitimate and unquestioned election in this nation.
There were a few voices on the far right who suggested that Iraqis were
"not ready to govern themselves". I say the same about the peoples of the
United States of America. If they are too stupid to see the problems, too
lazy and cowardly to address the problems, and not only are not ashamed of
themselves but actually wear their hubris like a badge ("I'm from
Florida/Ohio! Hyuk! Guess we just ain't figgered out them votin' machines
yet!"), then they are not ready and do not deserve to govern themselves.
How to make a third party viable? Look to the many nations who do not have
a multiple party taboo and see how they do it. Germany and Canada have
vibrant and active Green and Liberal parties (genuine liberal and not the
dirty word the propagandists in the States use to describe anyone who isn't
as righteous as they are) as well as a range of traditional right and
left-leaning options. But they also have a population of people who don't
wear their ass as a hat and can tell you a little something about their own
government when it is NOT an election year as well.
I have a prescription for democracy, and I gave it in another forum which
sparked the worst fight I have ever had on Shmeng. I'll give it again,
however, because I am unrepentant and shameless (if the yellow-ribbon
plastering, flag-waving imbeciles can do it...). In order to have a
semblance of a democracy, three conditions must be fulfilled. The United
States currently enjoys none of these prerequisites (if they ever did).
They are:
1. Transparency of candidates. You can't hide behind a veil and run for
office. Period. And invoking "national security concerns" to cover up your
business ventures should not fly. Scripted press conferences should not
fly.
2. A free press. I got back from overseas and I can tell you firsthand
that what passes for an American news agency here would have made the old
Pravda and Tass blush.
3. A sober, serious, educated and engaged population. To be entirely
fair, the people of the USA can blame conditions #1 and #2 for a degree of
their abysmal stupidty, but that only goes so far. If they can't wrap
their heads around the concept of reform and can't be bothered in any
event, then they deserve to be the international joke they have become.
~M. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/1/2005 at 09:46 AM |
| I think the main obstacle in the way of having a third-party candidate in
office is almost certainly the fact that no one thinks their vote will be
backed up sufficiently to get the job done. If somehow the number of
Americans who would like to see a third party candidate as President could
be verified, if they could all be informed of this number, and could be
organized to make a coordinated showing at the polls, then I have no doubt
that there would be sufficient voters to overturn the tyranny of the
two-party system. But how to do this? ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and
the
/>
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Monolycus
Fanatic Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/1/2005 at 04:46 PM |
I am frequently critisized for over-estimating the capacity of my audience
to follow an argument. Let me dumb this down one step further.
W0rmWood: I DID NOT say that the past and present were the same.
The situation as it stands today IS NOT self-perpetuating. It is
a deliberate lie that originated with the plutocrats and is perpetuated by
fatalistic asshats and the willfully lazy. If you truly believe that
nothing can be done and everything is hopeless and this is the way that it
has always been, then why are you spending any time trying to persuade me
of that fact? If no effort can change the situation, then your happy
little paradigm is safe enough even if there are some people out there who
don't feel like taking it lying down with a tube of astroglide in hand. I,
on the other hand, believe in de Tocqueville's observation that you get the
government you deserve... and I also believe that if it were otherwise, I
would still have nothing to lose by trying to improve my lot.
Explain to me why the heirs of Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry, Paul
Revere, et al. seem so comfortable about accepting a demonstrably
unacceptable situation? Explain to me why I keep seeing Che Guevara's
likeness being emblazoned on clothing worn by lazy, spoiled, apathetic
fatalist losers who are more than happy to shrug their shoulders as they
watch everything they should hold dear being taken from them by an
aristocratic plutocracy? Explain to me why I can't go a day without
hearing the hollow word "hero" being shouted at me on the news stations of
a nation where people blithely accept an "alternative" between Evil
Mouthpiece A and Evil Mouthpiece B? Americans won't accept election
fraud... in the Ukraine! Americans will fight for the rights of the
repressed people of the world... to be repressed by our own billionaires!
Hypocrites and fatalists. Even if things were as unchangable and hopeless
as you would like to believe, then you have nothing to lose by putting
forth some effort to improve the situation. The way I see it, it is
precisely the people who behave as though the situation is eternal
and self-perpetuating that are causing the fucking problem.
~M. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
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W0rmW00d
Fanatic Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/1/2005 at 10:59 PM |
Yeh, you're right, thats pretty incomprehensible.
The two party outlook of the voter is self perpetuating, that, I think, is
clear.
This means that the reason that it is still a two party outlook is that it
has always been such. Because the past and present of the fact are the
same, they are interchangeable, which makes it into a tautology, as Mono
pointed out.
It seems highly unlikely that the human herd will figure out what is going
on for long enough to do something about it - Again pretty clear.
This means that the only viable option is to take the 'lesser of two evils'
standpoint when it comes to electing a representative. Not ideal, but
pragmatic.
Then i finish with Bill Hicks' view of American politics, which I feel are
very fitting.
I think that makes the whole thing more understandable. ____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
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