I am starting this one to discuss the basic philosophies of life... I
believe cogito ergo sum is a good place to start...
What honestly sets us aside on the planet is this basic tenet... it is our
awareness that allows us to be what we are... questioning the universe
leads to a better existence..
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 1/3/2005 at 03:41 AM
I cannot beleive that I missed this one for so long.
Squid, Existence does equal existence, obviously. What you fail to
establish is a truth value for existence. Is there existence? For truth
value positive there is existence, for truth value negative, there is
not.
Although it seems obvious to you that you exist looking at it from an
instinctive point of view (existence means that I can think, that I can
think means that I exist or whatever) and that anything else may exist
around you, like your chair, or your computer, you have no proof other than
sensory data, the only a priori knowledge (necessary for a logical
definition) is that existence = existence, which is a tautology and
therefore useless for this purposes of defining or establishing existence
(if you get my meaning). All beleif in existence is based on the assumption
that your sensory data is accurate, that what you feel is in fact a chair
rather than the squashed balloon onto which you fell from a great height
after stumbling over what can only be described as a walrus-like giraffe,
or even nothing at all. An illusory existence created by an insane mind
craving some form of sensory stimulation. The only thiing of which you can
be reasonably sure is that there is a 'mind' perceiving this. This is the
closest one can truly come to true nihilism due to the 'Godel theorem' as
explained by Kender. As we cannot truly understand something unless we can
relate it to an experience, and the total lack of a mind is quite
inconceivable to us as a way of umm.... being as we are (curse the
limitations of the accursed language) we cannot conceive that we can be
here 'thinking' if we are not. And similar.
God that was long winded and rambling, I'm not even sure that I concluded
my point. I might carry on when I get back from trying to get the
department of philosophy of Nottingham University to re-admit me (I shit
you not, such fortunate coincidence), but I shall leave with what I
consider to be the closest soundbite to what I was trying to say:
'I think, therefore I think I am.'
Or should that be:
'Something thinks as though I am, therefore what I beleive to be me thinks
that it is. Perhaps.' ?
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
dead-cell
Fanatic
Posts: 344 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 27/2/2005 at 01:03 AM
I'm going to agree with the stranger above me.
quote:Cogito ergo sum IS
bullshit. Thinking is not being. Existence is existence. Afterall,
knowlege is the art of not thinking.
In keeping with Descartes' "Cogito ergo sum" and applying it to Squid's
quote the end result would be Squid doubting that he himself exist.
____________________ co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)
Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 26/2/2005 at 03:58 PM
quote:“I think Therefore I am”
Beautiful quote, but merely that. Consciousness of self does come after
existence. (As so eloquently stated by Andree, yet I expand) Take for
example, as a child. Are you aware while you are a molecule? Are you aware
while you are in the womb? Have you yet developed a cognitive thought
process?
I think that you are taking the quote out of context, the way i looked at
it was that Descartes realised that because he knew that he thought, that
he could tell he existed, not being able to know that others think, he was
unable to be sure that everything else was not simply a product of his own
imagination.
And in fusion, its talking about atoms becoming molecules. There are
exceptions to the law of conservation of matter, the exextion comes in cold
fusion, where matter could become pure energy, at least as far as was
explained to me, but at any rate, since that discovery, the law of
conservation of mass becomes the law of conservation of mass and energy,
and if mass becomes energy, isn't it possible to go the other way, after
all, if that were proved possible, then the big bang theory would have
irrefutable evidence wouldn't it?
Btw, im not someone on the forum, i found this through the internet, and am
concidering joining.
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Britva
Moderator
Posts: 37 Registered: 1/8/2003 Status: Offline
posted on 27/7/2004 at 06:20 PM
I was just browsing by this thread and thought I would put my two cents in.
It seems like a lot of people are putting their own meanings onto "cogito
ergo sum."
In my understanding, Descartes was dealing with the question, how do we
know anything exists? What you see, hear, feel, etcetera, could simply be
illusions or misperceptions. How then do we know if anything is "real?"
Well, if you're asking the question, "what exists?" then something must be
asking that question. That thought, consciousness, soul (whatever you want
to call it) that is pondering the question is the only thing we can be sure
is real.
Hence, I think, therefore I am.
That rock... my parents... this website... Julia Roberts... none of it may
be real. But I know I'm real because I'm the one asking the questions.
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 27/7/2004 at 01:36 PM
Now, the point about cogito ergo sum has to do with a former premise. "What
does not exist can not think", mostly overlooked by quoters (good thing to
read the Discourse, though it starts by Descartes saying he is half drunk).
And I am thinking. Therefore:
a) np->nq (Premise)
b) p (Premise)
c) n (np ^q) (Open up a)
d) nnp v nq (DeMorgan in c)
e) p v nq (Double negation in d)
f) nnq (Apply premise b to e)
g) q (Double negation in f)
(Where p: I think, q: I am, p -> q: p implies q (if p, then q), np: no p,
p^q: p and q, pvq: p or q)
It was just another game of aristotle's logic. Now THAT was Descartes's
flaw, not considering that logic itself might be the Deimo's invention, and
forgetting that even Aristotles admitted his logic laws to be based in
perception.
(Hey, it's been twelve years since I did my last silogysm, it's pretty
rusty)
but you are asserting in a way that is not discussable... repeating
yourselrf without explanation to try and make it understood... I can tell
you that 2=2 all day... but that does not benefit the discussion...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 24/7/2004 at 10:33 AM
I'm claiming that existence is beyond self-evident and has always been.
I'm not claiming to have solved some kind of universal conundrum, I'm only
claiming to understand the painfully obvious fact that I am. That
is the one thing that I can actually say I know, everything else must be
built on the foundation of that.
Descartes simply misunderstood this.
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.
Since always... when discussing a quantum iniverse you have to accept that
the universe is not just out world line, but many... energy can slip from
one to anyother, causein divergence... also einstein wrote several papers
on it
Now... if it is extremely simple, then why has mankind been questioning it
for centuries? are you claiming to have solved the basic quandries of
life?
[Edited on 7/24/2004 by feralucce]
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
IamSquid
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 658 Registered: 27/5/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 23/7/2004 at 09:49 PM
If I'm sounding repeditive it's because this entire conversation is
extremely simple.
Are yoo going to answer my question or not?
____________________
i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
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die so i could watch, and then me die.