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Author: Subject: cogito ergo sum

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  posted on 21/7/2004 at 11:58 PM
Descartes said "I think therefore I am..."

Squiddo said ""cogito ergo sum" is bullshit"

I am starting this one to discuss the basic philosophies of life... I believe cogito ergo sum is a good place to start...

What honestly sets us aside on the planet is this basic tenet... it is our awareness that allows us to be what we are... questioning the universe leads to a better existence..

 

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  posted on 1/3/2005 at 03:41 AM
I cannot beleive that I missed this one for so long.
Squid, Existence does equal existence, obviously. What you fail to establish is a truth value for existence. Is there existence? For truth value positive there is existence, for truth value negative, there is not.
Although it seems obvious to you that you exist looking at it from an instinctive point of view (existence means that I can think, that I can think means that I exist or whatever) and that anything else may exist around you, like your chair, or your computer, you have no proof other than sensory data, the only a priori knowledge (necessary for a logical definition) is that existence = existence, which is a tautology and therefore useless for this purposes of defining or establishing existence (if you get my meaning). All beleif in existence is based on the assumption that your sensory data is accurate, that what you feel is in fact a chair rather than the squashed balloon onto which you fell from a great height after stumbling over what can only be described as a walrus-like giraffe, or even nothing at all. An illusory existence created by an insane mind craving some form of sensory stimulation. The only thiing of which you can be reasonably sure is that there is a 'mind' perceiving this. This is the closest one can truly come to true nihilism due to the 'Godel theorem' as explained by Kender. As we cannot truly understand something unless we can relate it to an experience, and the total lack of a mind is quite inconceivable to us as a way of umm.... being as we are (curse the limitations of the accursed language) we cannot conceive that we can be here 'thinking' if we are not. And similar.
God that was long winded and rambling, I'm not even sure that I concluded my point. I might carry on when I get back from trying to get the department of philosophy of Nottingham University to re-admit me (I shit you not, such fortunate coincidence), but I shall leave with what I consider to be the closest soundbite to what I was trying to say:
'I think, therefore I think I am.'
Or should that be:
'Something thinks as though I am, therefore what I beleive to be me thinks that it is. Perhaps.' ?

 

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Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

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  posted on 27/2/2005 at 01:03 AM
I'm going to agree with the stranger above me.

quote:
Cogito ergo sum IS bullshit. Thinking is not being. Existence is existence. Afterall, knowlege is the art of not thinking.


In keeping with Descartes' "Cogito ergo sum" and applying it to Squid's quote the end result would be Squid doubting that he himself exist.

 

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co-worker: "Your gay!?"
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  posted on 26/2/2005 at 03:58 PM
quote:
“I think Therefore I am” Beautiful quote, but merely that. Consciousness of self does come after existence. (As so eloquently stated by Andree, yet I expand) Take for example, as a child. Are you aware while you are a molecule? Are you aware while you are in the womb? Have you yet developed a cognitive thought process?



I think that you are taking the quote out of context, the way i looked at it was that Descartes realised that because he knew that he thought, that he could tell he existed, not being able to know that others think, he was unable to be sure that everything else was not simply a product of his own imagination.

And in fusion, its talking about atoms becoming molecules. There are exceptions to the law of conservation of matter, the exextion comes in cold fusion, where matter could become pure energy, at least as far as was explained to me, but at any rate, since that discovery, the law of conservation of mass becomes the law of conservation of mass and energy, and if mass becomes energy, isn't it possible to go the other way, after all, if that were proved possible, then the big bang theory would have irrefutable evidence wouldn't it?

Btw, im not someone on the forum, i found this through the internet, and am concidering joining.

 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 07:14 PM
precisely!!!!

 

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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 06:20 PM
I was just browsing by this thread and thought I would put my two cents in. It seems like a lot of people are putting their own meanings onto "cogito ergo sum."

In my understanding, Descartes was dealing with the question, how do we know anything exists? What you see, hear, feel, etcetera, could simply be illusions or misperceptions. How then do we know if anything is "real?"

Well, if you're asking the question, "what exists?" then something must be asking that question. That thought, consciousness, soul (whatever you want to call it) that is pondering the question is the only thing we can be sure is real.

Hence, I think, therefore I am.

That rock... my parents... this website... Julia Roberts... none of it may be real. But I know I'm real because I'm the one asking the questions.

 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 03:09 PM
Ops. That pedenatic nonsense was mine...
 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 02:10 PM
what the fuck???

 

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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 





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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 01:36 PM
Now, the point about cogito ergo sum has to do with a former premise. "What does not exist can not think", mostly overlooked by quoters (good thing to read the Discourse, though it starts by Descartes saying he is half drunk).

And I am thinking. Therefore:

a) np->nq (Premise)
b) p (Premise)
c) n (np ^q) (Open up a)
d) nnp v nq (DeMorgan in c)
e) p v nq (Double negation in d)
f) nnq (Apply premise b to e)
g) q (Double negation in f)

(Where p: I think, q: I am, p -> q: p implies q (if p, then q), np: no p, p^q: p and q, pvq: p or q)

It was just another game of aristotle's logic. Now THAT was Descartes's flaw, not considering that logic itself might be the Deimo's invention, and forgetting that even Aristotles admitted his logic laws to be based in perception.

(Hey, it's been twelve years since I did my last silogysm, it's pretty rusty)

 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 12:42 PM
so linn... go start a forum for it

 

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/>





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 12:41 PM
It is a simple discussion, which now, has been disected to no end...
Lets move along to another discussion... for example,

The laws of Gravity, metephorical and physical.

 

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  posted on 27/7/2004 at 07:24 AM
I can hear Socrates spinning in his grave!

 

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  posted on 24/7/2004 at 01:12 PM
Nm squid

 

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/>
/>







Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 24/7/2004 at 12:46 PM
Of course not, 2 = 2 is extremely obvious and does not need to be discussed.

Perhaps if yoo gave mee some idea of how exactly what yoo disagree with?

 

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i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to die so i could watch, and then me die.

-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 24/7/2004 at 12:24 PM
but you are asserting in a way that is not discussable... repeating yourselrf without explanation to try and make it understood... I can tell you that 2=2 all day... but that does not benefit the discussion...

 

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/>

/>









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  posted on 24/7/2004 at 10:33 AM
I'm claiming that existence is beyond self-evident and has always been. I'm not claiming to have solved some kind of universal conundrum, I'm only claiming to understand the painfully obvious fact that I am. That is the one thing that I can actually say I know, everything else must be built on the foundation of that.

Descartes simply misunderstood this.

 

____________________


i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.




-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 24/7/2004 at 01:32 AM
Since always... when discussing a quantum iniverse you have to accept that the universe is not just out world line, but many... energy can slip from one to anyother, causein divergence... also einstein wrote several papers on it

Now... if it is extremely simple, then why has mankind been questioning it for centuries? are you claiming to have solved the basic quandries of life?

[Edited on 7/24/2004 by feralucce]

 

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/>

/>


/>











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  posted on 23/7/2004 at 09:49 PM
If I'm sounding repeditive it's because this entire conversation is extremely simple.

Are yoo going to answer my question or not?

 

____________________



i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to />
die so i could watch, and then me die.






-ickgirl

 

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  posted on 23/7/2004 at 12:13 PM
NUCLEAR not cellular*snort*

 

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/>


/>



/>













Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

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  posted on 23/7/2004 at 12:12 PM
Since when? Until just now, I have never heard of any exceptions to the law of conservation of matter/energy.

 

____________________




i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else
to
/>

die so i could watch, and then me die.








-ickgirl

 
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