feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/7/2004 at 05:57 PM |
we need to get a message to the intelligent inhabitants of Earth, if any,
10,000 years in the future. we have been given a federal grant to do this
and money is not a question in a practical sense. How do we do this? ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Alugarde
Member Posts: 185 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/7/2004 at 03:32 PM |
I'm sensing that I misunderstood exactly what this message is supposed to
contain. We want them to understand us, right? And by extension we want
them to understand how we lived, right? What if 10,000 years from now these
creatures that look nothing like humans living in a tree-less world open up
our message, see a picture of a man and a woman, and think, among other
things, "How did these creatures live? What sort of feeding habbits did
they have? Hmmm...what's that thing in the ground behind that one...what
are those big red balls growing on that thing in the ground behind
him...maybe they ate those..."
I realize that's stretching things a bit, but I stretched to make a point.
I guess I'm just misunderstanding what kind of questions our descendants
will have. If I found a 10,000 year old message, I wouldn't want it to
containt "1 + 1 = 2". I can go to any kindergarden and find that out. I'm
not interested in 10,000 year old technology because chances are it's
either obsolete or it's something we already know. I'm interested in the
10,000 year old way of life. That means I have to know something
about what the world was like 10,000 years ago to understand what life was
like 10,000 years ago. If trees don't exist in 10,000 years, it might be
good to let our descendants know that they did exist, so that they can
better understand us and our way of life. ____________________ l33t is the bastard cousin of contractions. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 08:07 PM |
Squire: no... elipses are everywhere...the trees grow in elispses, the
planets move in elipses, and the planets them are oblate sphereoids (3-d
elipses)... spirals rarely occure in nature... chaos theory has ntohign to
do with the spiral... a spiral is a nonrepeating, terminal shape...
fractals are micro as they are macro... infintiely repeating... DNA is a
Helix, doubled - the helix when viewd frrom "above" is a circle... no point
closer to the center point... a spiral is a curve on a plane that winds
around a fixed center point at a continuously increasing or decreasing
distance from the point
also... I believe you are confusing fractals with chaos theory...
[Edited on 7/22/2004 by feralucce] ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 06:45 PM |
No offense alugarde, but the spirals ARE EVERYWHERE. The trees you saw; the
pattern that their branches grow in is dictated by chaos theory, the
spiral. The patterns of bark growth; spirals. It's imbedded in their DNA.
Our DNA is a spiral, and imbedded in it's code, is a chaos pattern that
allows our blood vessels to spread, our bones to grow, and our brains to
form. Do you think DNA contains enough data to dictate the placement of
each individual cell? Not a chance, but with chaos, it can organize,
multiply, and interact. A more complete understanding of the universal
properties of Chaos theory would probably make it a lot clearer why I
personally think it happens to be a symbol that NEEDS to be spread. It is
the most basic, and complex, concept on this earth, or this universe. Check
it out.
As for tree's in specific, they could easily be gone. One must assume that
there's a good chance that our species isn't around in this theoretical
future because of disaster, environmental or otherwise. Trees are pretty
sensitive creatures. It wouldn't take much to clear them form the face of
the earth. That's why it's just not viable to use things we take as
concrete and talk about them. I would give the words, in various langauges,
for Sun, and moon, and perhaps of this planet, simple math, a simple
depiction of man and woman, and a chaos spiral. Simple, quaint, obvious,
and pretty useful. ____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 05:52 AM |
the solid state nature of the dvd playe is actually safe... BUT the dvd is
not... optical mediums break dwon at a relatively alarming rate...
Problem with pictures is this... everyone will interpret a picture with
their own life experienceces... making understanding difficult...
communication works due to the non-subjective nature of the basic words... ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 21/7/2004 at 02:59 AM |
The problem with a video sequence - or anything of that nature - is, how
are these people 10,000 years in the future going to view or listen to it?
If you have a DVD, you need a DVD player. Even if intelligence exceeds
ours in 10,000 years, that would just mean that DVD players will be so
obsolete that they won't even have been heard of. And how are you going to
preserve a DVD player for 10,000 years? Same with CD's or anything else
like that. ____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism" |
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Psychopixi
Fanatic Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 20/7/2004 at 03:14 PM |
Why do the pictures have to be pictograms? Surely there could be actual
pictures - either photographs, or on some form of disk that could show far
more detail than a pictogram. Even a video sequence could be edited so the
things in it are named, right? ____________________ Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 20/7/2004 at 03:09 PM |
malleability is a BIGGER problem if it is to be porcailined... cause if it
not strong enough, then it will litterally collapse uunder the weight of
the ceramic...
I agree... a trtee is pretty basic... but... pictograms leave sooooo much
to be desired... I am not sure how thorough they were, but keep in mind,
for it to be a written language, it has to be complete enough to
communicate thier everyday life...
I personally like the math idea... while life may change... the circle...
will not...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Alugarde
Member Posts: 185 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 20/7/2004 at 02:13 PM |
quote: Write the word TREE next
to a picture of a tree, sure, but who know whether such organismswill exist
10,000 years from now.
Squire, would you prefer to write the word RED-BOTTOMED ZUBRAMUNKARAT next
to some sketch of a creature that is yet to exist? We're trying to get our
descendants to understand us, right? A tree is a pretty basic concept of
living. I've seen perhaps eight or ten trees in the two hours I've been
awake today. I can't recall any spirals in that time.
Feral, how thourough were the Babylonians? What if we included a large book
containing a picture of every tangible entry in the dictionary, with it's
name next to the picture? The only thing I think that might not effectively
communicate is words like "I" or "you", but then those are some of the
first words I try to figure out when learning a language...perhaps we could
also include a list of the words we couldn't come up with a picture for.
That way, when they're trying to figure out our language, we could change
the gaps from fill in the blank to multiple choice.
[Edited on 7/20/2004 by Alugarde] ____________________ l33t is the bastard cousin of contractions. |
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Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 20/7/2004 at 11:19 AM |
Nope, wasn't me. Wasn't me at all.....hehe. ____________________ “The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner |
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Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 20/7/2004 at 11:17 AM |
History is not viable to represent here, people. This idea is bunk. There
is no Rosetta stone, as has been brought up before. We can't use
pictographs. Write the word TREE next to a picture of a tree, sure, but who
know whether such organismswill exist 10,000 years from now. And what good
is that. I agree with Dom, in that the structure of DNA should be
represented, and by that token, our complex understanding of an age old
concept, the golden ration, i.e. spirals, helixes, and of course chaos
theory. They can be represented very simply. The spiral has been a
spiritual symbol for hundreds of thousands of years, oddly enough, in so
far as it is essentially the pictoral form of a mathematic function that
drives the galaxy, the growth of a tree, the structure of our brain and
dna, and of course, conch shells and black holes.
Furthermore, steel is a bad, bad thing. Porcelainized or not. I am a
staunch suporter of gold aloys, and if it's going to be porcelainized, it's
maleability shouldn't be a problem. The galactic satelite we shamefully
puttered out in the late 70's had a golden record with sounds on it, from
earth. If gold, and whatever minor aditions they added for strength, etc,
is good enough to support needle grooves, I say it can hand a double helix
and two dots plus 2 dots equals 4. Complexity is fun, for mystery sake, and
it would make future people curious, as we are of our own ancestors, but
honestly, if we're trying to give them an idea of our most idyllic
qualities, and a good example of our knowledge, then Ourselves (DNA) the
universe (Chaos, spirals) and the building blocks of each (math) should be
all that matters. |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 01:43 PM |
babylonians dis that... and we still don't understand a fuckin thing they
wrote ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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dead-cell
Fanatic Posts: 344 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 10:28 AM |
Well we could do the same as Ikea and use pictographs. Of course that is to
mean only use pictographs for the really basic ideas, then move on to
universal mathmatics, and eventually language. Perhaps we should leave a
note to say "Sorry for being so redundant." ____________________ co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me) |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 08:27 AM |
now.... how do we make ourselves understood? ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Shade
Fanatic Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 08:20 AM |
Nice ideas all, and the cave painting concept is pretty good. I like the
idea of the ceramic/steel plates for delivering detail, but as a possibile
just send a message at all idea, cave paintings would rock since they do
last. I realized one other thing that should go into the packet of more
detailed info; a star chart of today's night sky. That way (assuming a
level of technological detail and mathematical skill that we have had since
before the darkages) the recipients could tell from whence came said
missive.
On a side note: Why? Because we can, because we work so hard to get any
drop of meaning out of our past when we find documents and the like today,
because it would be funny, and because it would have been nice had the
Atlaneans done it for us. ____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me |
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 07:10 AM |
maybe repeating a similar message in like 4000 caves per continent with
monolithic carns with sealed chambers in side holding metal/pocelaine
"books" inside? If we arent counting cost we could go for lots of
locations, with part of a complete message in each, a bit like how email is
sent. ____________________ Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away. |
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Domkitten
Fanatic Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 06:58 AM |
Alright,
After having spent several well deserved minutes rereading all of this
again I think you have a real problem on your hands, but you already knew
that. Here is a thought, but of course it requires some amount of technical
knowledge or other ability to comprehend this on the other side. It also
assumes that something with at least the genetic framework of the
homosapien will exist at some point in the far distant future.
What about putting it in the genetic structure, or writing it in a an
interpretable binary bio-code. Think along the lines of the original
purpose of earth in Hitchhikers. Of course, we could only hope that at some
point it would not be horribly interfered with, but we couldn't guarantee
that.
I do however, like Shade's idea (metal or porcelainized metal) the best as
it is probably the most practical. Although, I would happily by into the
monolith just because I like to think that it could be very cool.
However for real longevity, I propose cave paintings. Those things take a
licking and keep on kicking. If we have reverted to more primitave culture
they will probably be found and our primitave breathern will thinks us gods
for figuring it out. If we remain advanced we could use glow in the dark
paint, or perhaps hundred foot sand carvings at high altitudes that are
arrows with sayings like "kilory is that way" I'm not sure about how to
get them discovered. But cave paintings. Yeah, that's it.
____________________ It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 06:00 AM |
shade... I think you have hit on something there...
Porcelinized steel... a pair of five sided polyhedrons... (cubes missing a
side... one fits snuggly inside the other... Heat one up, freeze the
other... when the reach a mean temperature, they are stuck together...
we have a medium of preservation... mineral oil and an alloy that can be
usefull (kinda a book frorm the mommy type affair...)
Where do we put it/how do we guarentee it is found? ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 05:56 AM |
Bane: you would presume to know that in 10,000 years a plannet that has
existed for a couple billion will be devoid of life? your own statement is
flawed as insectoid life would require vegetation... AND... insects,
relatively speaking are much less haardy than fish... SOOO...
also... you did not read the entire fucking forum... which around here is
verbotten... you missed this IMPORTANT statement... "this is an excercise
in logical thought designed to stimulate intellect and discourse... not to
mention it is fun... my engineering group and I are fond of saying, let us
assume condition x exists, consider the ramifications..."
SECONDLY... pure titanium is a)brittle as oxidized shit, 2) oxidizes at the
drop of a hat, and q) all of it's alloys fall under the same problem with
oxidation... I daresay that it would require a great deal of maintenence to
last long enough... and we could just tell them when we meet them
then...
6x6... a square? 18 feet tall... seems... odd ____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
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Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist |
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Bane
Occasional Poster Posts: 28 Registered: 14/7/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 19/7/2004 at 03:38 AM |
Ok... i did use the wrong word...
i meant "predict"... not "imagine" because we all could imagine more
strange things than a normal citizen could cope with...
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