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Politics: Where is Our Social Conscience?
Posted by Domkitten on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 04:04 AM PST

News
I'm living in a country where Americans are not looked upon with much favor. This has in large part to do with the over 100 military bases in South Korea for the last 50 years and the relatively minor control that the South Korean government has over those forces. Generally I am not hated, or disliked, and I have to admit that only twice have I heard the oh so endearing phrase "Yankee go home". I have to admit, though, that I can understand why people dislike Americans so much. Allot of the anger goes in the most part to the willingness to cover up, hide, or ignore events that effect non-Americans. Currently there is a great deal of anger being directed at the American military for the death of two young Korean teenagers who were on their way to a birthday party. As they were walking to the party a tank ran them over. The two men who were driving the tank were on duty at the time preforming training exercises. The driver said that he did not see them walking on the pedestrian road. His co-driver said that there was a communication break down which resulted in the driver being unable to hear the warning to stop. All of this happened in June as the World Cup games were getting underway and for the most part the story was buried in both Korean and American media. However, it was not forgotten and as the verdict came in, Korean's were roused once again.

These two girls died in one of the most horrific ways I can think of, and I really do feel horribly for their families. These were young girls. What is even more horrific is the way that the situation has been handled by the American government and the Military. Since the men in question where on duty at the time, they are under the jurisdiction of the Military and are not capable of being held responsible in a Korean court of law because of the SOFA agreement (Status of Forces Agreement ) which says that American's on duty cannot be tried by Korea. The driver, Sergeant Nino, was charged with negligent homicide and was acquitted last month, much to the dismay of Koreans. Had he been convicted, Sergeant Nino would have been faced up to six years of imprisonment. Under U.S.. civil and military law, the prosecution is not permitted to appeal a not-guilty verdict.

Koreans have been protesting the decision and are calling for a formal apology from the President. The President send his deepest regrets, but not in person. Officially, on camera, by phone, or even through an email, the President has not personally commented on the death of the two Korean girls. He sent his deepest regrets through an emissary, which only added to the feeling of disgust that many Koreans already felt.

In a country where there is already a great deal of anger at American military forces this came as a harsh blow. South Koreans were already disgusted by the President and his declaration against North Korea as a member of the Axis of evil. Relations between the nations of North and South Korea have been at a stalemate for a good 50 years, although the two countries have never signed a peace treaty and are still at war. Any negative sentiment or warmongering that the US will direct towards the North, and indeed, any operations that might be lead in the North, will come from the South, putting far more Koreans in danger than Americans.

The war on terrorism continues to give people in the South pause. It would not be unthinkable for the US to consider the North a viable target after they finish wiping up the pieces in Iraq. Considering the unwillingness of Bush to accept the release of information from Iraq about it's weapons program and the constant search the US seems to be launching for any reason to go to war, it would not be unthinkable to find the North a target. Especially after the announcement at the end of October of the North's nuclear weapons program.

I was home the weekend the verdict was announced. Home in my little apartment in South Korea, which is an oddity in and of itself. I was watching the X-files on AFN (Armed Forces Network) when across the bottom of the screen a news warning was flashed. The news was mostly for American military stationed in South Korea. It warned about possible protests because of the verdict, and cautioned military personal to be prepared for attacks on US bases in the South, to obey the curfew, and to avoid the general public of South Korea. I have never felt more in my life like going out and joining a protest.

One has to wonder, or at least question what it is that the US is currently doing in the world. I ask myself why all the time, but I can't find an answer. It seems our President has gone mad with power and is taking one tragedy and multiplying it hundreds of times over. I don't know.

For my part, however, this is one little tragedy, the death of two girls, and I thought I would share it so that it would not be entirely forgotten. In the end, only the families of these girls are seriously effected, they've lost their daughters.


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Where is Our Social Conscience? | Login/Create an account | 58 Comments
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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by MorteAscendo (corpsmanwix@aol.com)
on Dec 15, 2002 - 01:19 PM
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Accidents happen.

Don't blame the Military for there indescresions. Christ, just note the fact that if all American forces just up uped and left in one day, your ecconomy would flop and North Korea would be on you like drunk jocks on the prom queen.



Accidents happen
by Arthegarn on Dec 15, 2002 - 11:51 PM
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Agreed. Accidents do happen. But I'd need another piece of info: What was the tank doing outside military grounds, anyway, or the girls inside them? I don't think USA forces have permission to take their tanks for training wherever they choose...


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:14 AM
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DUDE... that is not cool...

The military, like everyone else should be held accountable... that is a classism that is unpardonable... And america is in no position to prop ANYONE's Economy... look at home shores!


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Xaoswolf (Xaoswolfathotmaildotcom)
on Dec 15, 2002 - 04:17 PM
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The driver stated that he didn't see the girls, and there was a break down in communications that lead to him not being able to hear the warning. That is entirely believable, have you ever seen the feild of view that you get if you are the driver in a tank. And if there are comm problems, then there is no communication. Even if you are yelling in a tank, it is pretty hard to hear. Accidents happen.

As for attacking North Korea, I don't really see that as happening. They will back down if we threaten to cut off all trade. Also, unlike the countries in the middle east, they are actually willing to talk and come to a solution.



Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Arthegarn on Dec 16, 2002 - 01:29 AM
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The USA is not prone to attacking anything outside its borders. It never has, and I guess it will never be. It took it Pearl Harbour to enter WWII, and after the coffin parade of its last major outside engagement, and the extreme unpopularity of sending USA troops to die in "some god forsaken corner of the world" makes a total war extremely unlikely.

I don't think there is sucha think as an Axis of Evil, but I do think North Korea is China's B-box. Whenever China wants to sell anything to anyone that would provoke a serious commercial or diplomatic response, it does so through North Korea. So, if China wanted to sell some Scuds to some regime in the Arabian zone that needs badly to arm itself with long range SSM, the best way would be if these misslies appeared to have been dispatched in an unidentified, flagless ship from and by Korea, destined to some third country which has no good relationships with the US anyway, where they could get conveniently lost... All that business is a slap on the US's part to China and North Korea, saying "when you think you are being awfully clever by hiding your deals with the Iraki under cement, we are watching you do so from mid orbit, little ones"

Its not as hard as saying that North Korea is an evil regime... but I believe it deserves some watching. Anyway the Usa has already found an excuse to cut off its unending supply of heavy fuel to that country, which will unevitably force it to reopen its nuclear plants as they will run out of fuel for their thermic ones. That will reopening of nuclear plants will give USA, or rather USA's government, its excuse (internal excuse, escuse in the eyes of the American public who are against sending their people to die in distant lands EXCEPT when there is a nuclear threat involved) to press as strong as wished to change that regime.

In my humble opinion, that is


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Bleargh
by Arthegarn on Dec 16, 2002 - 01:33 AM
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Excuse that syntax... I am not running very smoothly this morning


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Re: Bleargh
by Schizo on Dec 22, 2002 - 08:42 AM
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Arthegarn, your syntax is better than most native English-speakers, as usual! No need to apologize!


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:16 AM
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Do some research in to the "School of the America's... we have NOT waged LARGE SCALE wa... but we have... repeatedly and covertly supported and performed small scale military action for about 70 years...


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Dec 18, 2002 - 03:49 AM
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Although the Nouth is willing to talk, the US is doing a good job of shutting it out.

A recent development you can read more about.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Dec 15, 2002 - 08:51 PM
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That is very very sad.
Unfortunately, it's not just tank drivers that smash innocent people. People die at the hands of others in accidents and otherwise every day. It doesn't make it okay, but people have to realise that it DOES happen.
I was about ready to duck and cover when I heard bushy boy's little "speech" about the "axis of evil"...I was like OH shit georgie, there goes the fucking neighborhood. Thanks a LOAD.
But as said, the difference between North Korea and the middle east is that THEY WILL talk, negotiate, which is to their utmost credit. The middle east *ugh* I don't know who's being more stupid in this situation...us or them. I know why we're there...OIL, baby, black fucking gold...rich man's war, it'll be, I guarantee. If they had nothing to hide, there wouldn't be a problem.
I just wonder who there is to inspect the US and OUR weapons...I'm sure we've got a few dirty bugs under our rug as well. More than a few.
Overall darlin, it's all a mess. If we had the answers, we wouldn't be on the internet with our quick fixits, we'd be SOLVING things.
Everything looks SO much easier in print.
We're not the only ones hiding and covering things up....EVERY country does it, EVERY politician does it...I swear they must have a screening for them in lawschool...."Are you good at blowing smoke up people's asses? Are you VERY sneaky and good at it? Can you lie with a straight face? You wanna make a LOAD of money?"
It's not just us, it's the sad truth of EVERY politician around the world.
Hell, look at the russians a few years ago that refused assistance (not only from pleas from the US to help out, but SEVERAL other countries) to save their men when their submarine sank to the bottom of a ravine. They didn't want ANYONE near it, even if it cost the lives of the men on the boat...which it did. What were THEY covering up?
What was so important on that damned boat that 200+ men had to suffocate in an iron coffin at the bottom of the ocean? Only then to say "nothing could be done"...what of THEIR families?

Covering your tracks is the key to politics.
It's unfortunate and disgusting, but true.

I feel for those girl's families...but they could have just as easily been mowed down by a car, or shot by another person, or whatever numerous reasons people get killed. Accidents happen, it's so very sad, but sometimes there is just nothing you can do, or could have done differently.
Not to speak ill of the dead, but couldn't they have HEARD it coming? Then again, people say that all the time when someone is killed on train tracks. Until it's happened to you, you just won't know.

How very sad.


Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Rae (darkness_embraced1@yahoo.com)
on Dec 15, 2002 - 09:16 PM
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Do you know that Korea ranks as one of the highest for pedestrian fatalities in the world? thats right..it does!! almost 50% of fatalities are vehicle/pedestrian related. It's not hard to see why, no sidewalks, crosswalks..nothing. And did you know that vehicle operators who commit a minimum of 10 traffic infractions are arraigned? The Special Case Law Against Traffic Accidents has been known to allow many motorists who have killed pedestrians to avoid any criminal punishment whatsover.
But yet, here we have a incident where we have Koreans screaming for the blood of U.S. soldiers due to the loss of 2 young people, but on any other given day, under any other circumstances, would have been dismissed. Looks like we have some double standards set here..uh huh..that doesn't fly.
Secondly, it's been rumored that in Korea, your guilty before you are innocent...so, I am sure these US soldiers would have had a fair trial in Korea..yeah right..lol.
And I just have to wonder about something here..Big tank..loud noise...ground rumbles...moving slow..If it were me, my ass would have been clear out of it's way, I wouldn't stand there and just let it run me over. I don't know..something just doesn't set right with me on that one. But needless to say, yes, my condolenses go out to the families and their loss..but it was a accident for crying out loud. And unfortunately, these kinds of accidents happen across the world everyday! But since it was an American in a semi hostile country, it will be used to nit pick a third world war.
Yes, let's not forget these two individuals, but while we are at it, let us not forget the Canadians or fellow Americans that were killed by friendly fire..oh..yeah, I forgot, Canadians are our allies, so their deaths have no significance. Shame on the Koreans who use this tragedy of two young people as an excuse to spew thier very own hatred. I think the social conscience could be analyzed with much criticism on that side of the fence as well with a finger reflecting right back.



Excellent Unbias Resource
by Rae (darkness_embraced1@yahoo.com) on Dec 15, 2002 - 10:10 PM
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Here is a unbias site that contains an article with great emphasis on how it ocurred, and the ruling..very well broken down.


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Re: Excellent Unbias Resource
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Dec 18, 2002 - 03:54 AM
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Actually, they don't talk much about the ruling, and overall I would say that there is a bias here in favor of the gentlemen in question. There are several assumptions made about the routines that they would have practiced but no facts.

Also the only example of an actual negligent homicide deals with the death of another solider. There is nothing related about NH in relation to a civilian, which I found interesting.

Had these been the daughters of soldiers would the outcome have been the same? Who knows.



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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Dolorosa (SixOfSwords@IU.zzn.com)
on Dec 18, 2002 - 01:29 AM
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People die, sometimes thats a good thing, sometimes it's a tragedy. Politics, like shit, happen...get more than three people together and politics happen, it's a loathesome fact of life. Even worse, but inevitably...war, death, conflict and battle are the fountains of blood that oil the gears of change. Without conflict, nothing much happens...people are happy for awhile, and then they decay.
I honestly feel a pang of anger for the deaths of those girls...and as far as the War on Terrorism goes, to tell you the truth...sometimes I really do wish it would all just go away.
But it won't.
People die, shit happens...
And another thing...our president isn't mad with power, at least I don't believe so. Mad with power is something else, something terrible...if he truly was power mad, fueled with the thirst of destruction, I know without a fraction of a doubt, that the amount of dead people this country would make would be stunning on a biblical level. He's impassioned, yeah...He IS just a man. He's got his fuck ups, but you can't make me believe all he desires is wealth, power, or superiority...he's got a hell of a lot of people he has to think about, every single fucking day.
And you know what makes it worse? More than half of 'em don't like him just because he is who he is...you ever met the guy? I'm usually real careful about not judging people I've never met.
Anywho...
The world sucks...so what are you going to do about it?



Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Dec 18, 2002 - 03:46 AM
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What I am going to do about it is talk about it. Sitting on my hands and crying, oh the worlds sucks, well, that's just not going to cut it.

The only problem is, people do so ever hate to be confronted with the world.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:18 AM
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it is not that they hate to be confronted with the world... but they hate anything which changes their paradigm...


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:41 AM
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OK... he's not mad with power... but he also DOES NOT KNOW THE WORDS TO JINGLE BELLS... There is footage showing this. I bet, if this had come to light before the election... he would not have been elected.



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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com)
on Dec 18, 2002 - 04:04 AM
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My argument is not that the military sucks, or that it should not exist, only that the US is constantly overstepping the bounds of civility with nations that host military men.

We expect the host nations to be culpable and compliant with all of our wishes, however we give very little freedom or responsibility for our actions over to the host nations government. I think that is questionable behavior. As a civilian living in Korea, the laws of the country bind me. GI’s have far more privilege than I do, when it comes to the law. This is not to say that members of the armed forces are not bound by laws, because I know that they are. Simply, that the respect members of the military show for Korean laws is very slim.

I do think that the men should at least see a day in Korean court, though I doubt it would happen. If it is an accident then surely this can be proven. However, systems are human and at this point, I agree, that these men would probably not have a fair trial. They should have had a trial months ago, before this incident became such a rallying force within South Korea.

The President did finally make an personal call to Kim Di-Jung after a rally in Seoul where more than half a million Koreans protested the verdict. However, because of the coming election the issue will not go away or be diffused at this point with words of apology.



Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Merry_Widow on Dec 18, 2002 - 05:49 AM
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I realize you are trying to make a call for social justice and responsibility, but it sounds like whining. On going, buzz buzzing whining.
The US is not over stepping it's bounds. If it were, we would have forcibly conquered a good chunk of the globe, simply by running it over with drunk marines. As it is, it is a few incidents, accidental or otherwise, that get press and get people buzz buzzing about how evil the government can be. Then you get citizens everywhere, well meaning, good intentioned people, who say, "We shouldn't be in this country/situation/pee-pee soaked Hekk hole." I have news for you, a lot of countries call for American interference. Just last week some Prime Minister of some country that I'm sure I'll remember when I'm sober and not so tired was saying that the only way anything can be resolved in his corner of the globe is if America mediates. Or some such nonsense like that.
And finally, to wrap myself up, I ask you to read Mortes post, "over seas, PLEASE." It just goes to show that civility is spit on by all people, not just Americans.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Dec 18, 2002 - 06:22 AM
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Actually, the current president was a very strong opponent to getting involved in other countries affairs. If you look at his campaign for the 2000 election you will not that he stated on several occasions that the US military should not be the "police of the world." However, after 9/11, that became a very different story, with the US suddenly more committed to global policing.

As for “if we wanted to conquer the world we would just take it”, again, our current President stated that our nation would be the strongest nation in the world, and any nation trying to build up weapons, or disagreeing with American policy would be dealt with.

Whining is defined as “to complain or protest in a childish fashion”. I do not think that I am complaining or protesting. I am creating a dialogue. I want to create a discussion on this matter, frankly, because it affects me as an American and as and expatriate.

I will poke around and find morte's article thank you for pointing it out.


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Where the Hell do you get off.....
by MorteAscendo (corpsmanwix@aol.com) on Dec 18, 2002 - 03:31 PM
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You call your self an American as you say right here: " .....it affects me as an American and as and expatriate."

Now, what are you, an American or an expatriate?

Ok, lets say that you ARE and American. Why are you wanting to fight for fact that you are soooo disappointed because my Presidents written apology wasn’t good enough....how you want MY President to go to Korea get on his knees and beg for forgiveness for a couple deaths. Come on.

A Marine Gunnery Sergeant saved the lives of 2 Japanese kids. One kids parent showed up at the award ceremony because the father of the kid that showed up was to proud to except the fact that an American saved his kids life, and the other kids parents just did show without interview.

You don’t see him begging for attention. I worked on a MedSurg Ward for 13 months, and I took care of over 50 car and motorcycle victims. 35% of those people where either hurt or KILLED because of Japanese drivers. YOU don’t see them begging the Japanese Prime Minister for a face-to-face apology.

Take that and sit on it for a while, there are a lot of things going on in this United States Military then you can ever know. Now next time you have something to say about something being unfair, talk to the source.

-The Unofficial Shmeng Naval Representative.


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Re: Where the Hell do you get off.....
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Dec 18, 2002 - 10:50 PM
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Again, I've got nothing against the military. I realize that there is a great big world out there and shit happens all the time.

Positive and negative propaganda, spin doctoring, what not, happen with all sorts of things, both good and bad. I'm just offering up one incident, an example where I feel I can express something that is both interesting and relevant to myself and to others. Do I think there are no other injustices in the world? No. Do I feel that all injustices are committed by people in the military? No. Do I think that the current American world view is causing all the problems in the world? No.

I'm not being unfair. I'm just looking at it from the point of view of a non-military person living in a different country. I'm trying to relate to the country I'm living in. What’s more, I'm sharing that view with others.

And, well, if you want to berate me over a typo, knock yourself out. That's an injustice I can live with.


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KILL IT: was where the hell
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:29 AM
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Let's kill this thread, and go back to teh topic...


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Re: Where the Hell do you get off.....
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:04 AM
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Ok... BUT... they are not in america wounding americans with their driving... the american was THERE...



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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Anonymous-Coward on Dec 18, 2002 - 07:22 PM
Yes, I realize that Bush is against policing the World. That whole "lets police the World and then apologize for it" was something that Gore was running on. I said that countries out there call in America to mediate their problems.
And second, if you must play the definition game, whining is firstly described in the dictionary as a plaintinve, high-pitched, PROTRACTED sound sound, as in pain or COMPLAINT. And that's what this sounds like. One long, drawn out whine.


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curses...
by Merry_Widow on Dec 18, 2002 - 07:29 PM
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That was me. It seems that my computer saw fit to log me out somewhere in between typing and hitting the submit button. Infernally slow device of electronic frustration!


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:27 AM
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No offence to anyone who thinks we could just take the world... *chuckles*
1) China and India could pound our military to dust in their own countries...
2) fighting a war on two fronts requires 3 times as much in rescources as it does for oe front... 3 fronts requires 5 times... we don't have the resources, nor will the american people stand for that kind of an action...



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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com)
on Dec 18, 2002 - 05:23 PM
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The death of one is a tragedy, the death of a million is just a statistic.
- Marilyn Manson


Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Geist on Dec 18, 2002 - 08:53 PM
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I don't think Dom was tryin ta knock the military Morte . We all 3 know how it is serving our country... Just the way our government handled the situation and so many others.


Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Dec 18, 2002 - 11:11 PM
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I gotta throw my two cents into the drunk tank...and beware, that's where *I* shoudl be right now.

Dom isn't whining. He/she/it saw/heard something that bothered them to the point of writing an article. Morte, kiddo, don't get your freshy presed whites into a wad. I know you stand behind your ...uhm...military (sorry, lost my train of thought for am inute) and that it is a huge part of your life. and we know that you've seen your fair share of injusctices placed upon personel simply for bing somehwere that a few people don't want the military to be.
I agree with you a lot on your standpoint, belive me, I do....but I also can sympathise where dom is coming from (sort of) in seeing something bad happen and having it bother them. I belive dolo brought this up in one of his first posts ont he board...about beinga board a ship and watching the coastline adn all the people on it blow up.
War and global nasties make things wretched on the home front and abroad...no need to make it worsre...."expatriot" or sailor boys included.
Oh god I know this is so incoherant but Ir eally DO have a point. Here it is:
Dom 'aint whining. Just makin a point.
Morte 'aint bein an asshole. Just stickin to his guns.
Bettie is drunk as a fuckin mick again and trying SO hard to think straight.
I really am. I promise.


Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Schizo on Dec 31, 2002 - 09:55 AM
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When driving a tank, you cannot see at all to the right, and nothing at all directly in front of you.

I know this, because my favorite cousin drives tanks, and I was talking to him Saturday and he told me this. (He's on leave after completing 6 months in Kosovo.)

If there was indeed a communication breakdown, then I can very well imagine a tank driver running someone over without even seeing them. The girls probably thought they could cross in front of the tank. Maybe the tank was going slower, and just at that point sped up. Maybe it was something else. The point is, the only way you can see while driving a tank, is the use of certain periscopes with a very limited range of vision.

If that tank driver were my cousin, I would certainly hope he would be tried by the U.S. Military, which understands tanks, rather than the South Koreans, many of whom hate Americans.

The reason military men are tried by the military rather than the country they are stationed in, is, in part, because of military secrets. There are many things on every military base that are not for the general public to know. For security reasons, any investigations involving military personel MUST be kept in the military.

While there is a chance that the tank driver WAS being negligent, the chance is far greater that the girls were just being foolhardy. And why should the President have to grovel because two Korean girls (sad as it is) made a dangerous decision and lost their lives as a result?



Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 01, 2003 - 03:15 AM
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It is not groveling, it is an apology. "Jeez, I'm sorry, that was a horrible accident, we should both take a look at this situation and decide how to make it easier for our troops and your people." That would have done allot to ease the tensions in South Korea.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Schizo on Jan 01, 2003 - 12:14 PM
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If it was the fault of the girls, then an apology is not needed, because an apology implies guilt. You said the President did express his condolences. In my mind, that is what was needed - to convey sorrow without accepting guilt. It seems that, in the eyes many South Koreans, the soldiers were guilty whether or not it was their fault. Saying someone is guilty just because they are an American soldier is the same as saying someone is guilty because they are Hispanic, or an African American. On a smaller scale, what if a child from a minority family was involved in an accident that hurt a white child, but it was the white child's fault. Would it be the responsibility of the minority parents to smooth it over and apologize? Just because the white family had a grudge against minorities?

If the courts had indeed found negligence, then an apology would be needed. Definitely. I have no problems with that. But no apology is needed to assuage prejudice.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 01, 2003 - 11:03 PM
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The larger problem here for many of the Koreans was the way in which the President addressed his sympathy.

First, the President said nothing about the incident and essentially let it pass unremarked in his administration.

Second, when the verdict was announced in November 6 months after the incident sympathy was sent to Kim De Jong, through an advisor, and not sent personally, which really cheesed allot of Koreans off. It only takes a few minutes to make a phone call and say. "It's a tragic loss, let's not let this happen again."

Third, it was not until half a million koreans protested in Seoul that the President finally called and spoke with Kim De Jong directly about the incident and expressed sympathy. That's an awful lot of work to get someone's condolences.

Politically it was a bad decision not to make a personal comment to the Koreans in June.
Again, regardless of who is to blame for being hit by a very large tank and crushed (two foolhardy girls, or two negligent core men) an apology, or at least some sort of admission that this incident had taken place would have helped allot to ease tensions in South Korea.

Saying "I'm sorry for you loss" Is not an admission of guilt. If it were I'd know an awfully lot of people guilty of murder.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Schizo on Jan 02, 2003 - 06:19 AM
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OK. Saying "I'm sorry for your loss" is not an apology to me, it's expressing sympathy. It's the sort of thing I might say to Bettie when her rats died.

How could the President ensure it never happened again if it were the fault of the girls? Magically increase the intelligence and common-sense level of all teenagers in South Korea? Put windshields in tanks so drivers can get killed when under fire?

Yeah, ideally, the President might have expressed sympathy earlier, but the President is a very VERY busy man, busier than we realize, I think. Maybe the incedent came at a very busy time, when he literally did not have those few extra minutes. Maybe his advisors didn't tell him much about how pissed the South Koreans were, so he didn't realize that much grovelling was needed.

When foreigners have accidents and kill Americans here, do their leaders even as much as express sympathy to us? It takes a tragedy on the scale of 9-11 for foreign leaders to give a damn about the death of Americans. And that wasn't even an accident.

So it's not just America that is so rude. If it was truly rudeness. It's an unendearing trait that's common to the entire globe.

I wouldn't be making a big deal of this, except you seemed to be assuming, along with the South Koreans, that these soldiers were a couple of buffoons goofing off with no respect for human life. Perhaps an easy thing to think, when you don't realize the difficulties of driving a tank. Maybe most Koreans picture it with the vision range of a car with its big windshield and side windows. But I keep picturing my cousin in the same situation. And it just makes me mad to see how people jumped to conclusions and assumed these men were guilty of negligence.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by ickgirl on Jan 02, 2003 - 06:29 PM
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I have a hard time faulting someone who has been run down by a tank.

If you ran someone over, killing them - even if they run out in front of you car. Even if it was dark and rainy and you couldn't see a damn thing and they threw themselves in front of your car - wouldn't you say you're sorry?

i sure as shit would, AND I'd beg for the family's forgiveness.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 02, 2003 - 06:50 PM
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I don't believe the point of this is to lay blame on anyone, but to take the blinders off and make people see the WHOLE side of an issue:

1) tanks aren't easy to see out of. Yes, people are trained to operate them, but people also are trained to operate CARS (by FAR more easy) and how many dolts accidentally kill people each year, by their fault or others? The whole incident should have been investigated clearly, not just trying to find a way how the drivers fucked up and killed two girls, but why it happened to BEGIN with...which includes both parties...the tank AND the girls.

2) What were the girls doing in the path of a tank? Would they not hear it coming? Would they not FEEL it coming? If they were young enough not to know better what were they doing on a road by themselves that had tank traffic? If they did hear and see it coming why didn't they get out of the way? I know here in the US, it's illegal to ride a bike and wear headphones on the streets because you can't hear a possible oncoming car. If you do so, and dont' hear it, and are hit and injured/killed the driver is less responsible for the accident, because as a pedestrian you are responsible for your own saftey when putting yourself in a dangerous situation. It doesn't mean that if you see a kid on a bike with headphones you can run his ass over and get away with it, but it's there to say "Hey dipshit, you're on a busy street with big cars moving fast. Pay attention."

I don't know that if someone threw themselves in front of my car that I would beg the other family for forgiveness. I would express my condolences that their loved one chose to do something so horrible, but alas it's not my fault. If it was an accident, like it was dark and rainy and for some reason we didn't see each other, I would express my condolences and hope they forgive me, but accidents happen, and their loved one was as responsible for the accident as I was. It sucks, it's lousy, it shouldn't have happened but it did.
I have as hard a time faulting someone who's been run over by a tank as I do exhonorating them simply BECAUSE they were run down by a tank. Depends on the situation, and I wasn't there so I don't know.

If I ran a country and had recieved a notice from an advisor that there had been a fatality accident involving one of my troops and civilians of that said country, it was deemed an accident, I would most likely call and express my condolences, and apologize that it HAPPENED.

I don't believe in apologizing for things you aren't at fault for.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 07:25 AM
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apologizing for stupidity is one thing. But expressing condolences are quite another.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 08:13 PM
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In the situation you have outlined... I would not apologize for someone else's stupidity


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 02, 2003 - 09:08 PM
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Damn straight!


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 07:24 AM
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Actually I'm trying really hard not to make an assumptions either way, because I wasn't in the tank, and I wasn't run over by the tank. My only real comment on the matter is that the situation was handled very badly, putting the US in a very dififcult situation. And, at the same time, me.

Frankly, again, if it had been handled better when it happened it would not have gained the kind of political status that it did, nor would the incident have had such a rallying effect throughout korea.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 01:12 AM
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Ok... government owes an apology... period...

-BUT-
let me ask an important question... if you see a tank... what motivates you to be in the path of a vehicle like this while it is on maneuvers. We're talking about a 30 ton piece of steel that produces about 60 - 85 decibels while in operation...

it seems that we owe an apology and these two deserve a darwin award for removing themselves from the gene pool

In answer to your question... the US is doing, actively, what it has for the last 100 years in the world at large... FUCKING WITH EVERYONE ELSE.




Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 02, 2003 - 02:03 AM
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We ain't the only country fuckin with people or have spent their histories fuckin with people.
People will meddle no matter what...sometimes its good sometimes it's bad, but they'll always do it.
The europeans fucked with most of europe, the mediteraneans fucked with europe, germany fucked with everyone, and EVERYONE and their momma fucked with the jews.

Like it matters now, a religious cult cloned a fucking human baby and now, my friend WE ALL DIE.

I'm gonna run up my credit cards buyin guns and ammo and holy water and alcohol.
See you in the flaming fields...I'll be the drunk fucker on a tractor pickin off demons.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 09:14 AM
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Yes... but Europeans kept it on their own continent. We choose to tell people who have been in a war of BELIEF a holy war that they cannot continue that or we'll stomp them, just because we don't agree with their religious choice... that.. is... bullshit


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Schizo on Jan 02, 2003 - 05:12 PM
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Not to call Americans saints, cuz we're not, but the reason Europe kept it to Europe back whenever was because of the difficulty of travel. Much easier to fuck with the people you can reach. Of course, that wasn't enough, so they spread out to fuck with everyone - Native Americans, Asians, Africans, etc. Hell, England fucked with everyone, they called it the British Empire!

So it's not just America, it's people in power anywhere and anytime.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 02, 2003 - 05:14 PM
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Bah, the only reason they only fucked with each other is because they couldn't go anywhere else at the time. And in the more recent fuckups, a certain german countryman had his eye and his troops aimed towards EVERYBODY. And great brittan fucked with other continents, and spain too, when they sent their little boats to our grand "new world", eliminated the native population, then sent shiploads of criminals to the new "social/political landfill" , tried to make them act and behave like they were still in europe, then freaked and attacked said political landfill when they refused. Whether they keep it on their own continent or not it's still meddling, and meddling just as bad as we've ever done, and for a LOT longer. If anything, it's worse if you live by the rule of don't shit where you sleep. When you stick as many people on such a small little blue ball, add in massive telecommunications and global travel capabilities and long range everything, PLUS spike it with thousands of years of meddling, buggering, and ancient, evolved, or semievolved belief systems, old grudges and new knots in our underwear, we might as well be on the same continent. So we all need to just stop peeing in the collective sandbox and pissin each other off or bein pissy crybabies and egomaniacs.
Whether we agree with their "religious choice" is one thing, and it's not the reason we're over there...it's the big green god that our fine fine government is after, and for most (as they would like to believe) to stop genocide...because genocide and dictators get in the way of oil, which leads back to money and power, which is well...all our friggin problems in one big black sticky ball of gold! Besides, in their "holy war" they're killin people too. LOTS of people over a "belief" system.
If we stepped back and let millions of people be killed for whatever reason, religious or not, you better believe that our fair "mind our own business" citizens, as well as other neighboring countries either involved or having to be near the slaughter, would scream out "WHAT are YOU going to do about this! How cold and uncaring that you would just sit by and let this happen?!" Hell I get SUPER angry and pissed off when I hear of violence in the name of xianity in our country....sure that gay kid deserved to be drug to death, tied to a fence, and beaten...god hates fags! Or that beating to death or attacking practicing islamic arab americans because they dont' believe in god, or that rival hidu gangs bomb each other's temples in american cities. You could argue that THEY were just following a religious belief, and that we shouldn't get involved.
Hell, the KKK is a christian organization. They can still meet and blow their bullshit around with each other, burn a few crosses in the woods and wear their cute little outfits and sing their songs, but they can't hurt anyone without consequence.

I'd love nothing more than to just bring all our kids home and leave the world to itself...that means no more occupations of any country or territory, no more nastiness towards or from our troops, etc.
It also means no more help for all those countries that want us to leave them the hell alone, but who come crying to us first when someone kicks sand in their face, starves their children, murders their husband, or when they need help diggin out of a devestating earthquake, flood, or relief from a famine or draught or epidemic. They can't have their cake and throw it too. If they truly want to be left alone, then we should, in fact, leave them ALONE. They're big kids, they can deal with life themselves without interferrance, and without HELP.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 07:27 AM
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We are not the only country to have the "biggest kid on the block" mentality. Nor are we the first country to make a globel issue of it. What is sad that this type of power hungry global war mongering is a historical fact that has been going on as long as there was a world to conquer. Let us not forget the Romans who conqured the known world at the time, or really any country guilty of that.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 10:28 AM
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Hell ya man, if you wanna see world class meddling, dig deeper into the history books, or not EVEN that deep. The romans, the huns, germany in the early 20th century, and when was it that the "Iron Curtain" finally fell? Recent enough for me to remember watching it on tv....hell when I was in gradeschool our textbooks and european maps had the big orange european/asian block titled "USSR".
We're AMATURES compared to those guys man, and our government hasn't even been AT it that long.... not that it makes it OKAY, but just to prove a point that our gov isn't the ONLY assholes in history..


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 03, 2003 - 11:15 AM
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Let me see... the examples you cited have one thing in common... they do not exist anymore...

the IRON CURTAIN... was put up as part of the treaty to end world war 2... we took part and the red government took the other


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 09:26 PM
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Yeah, because they happend YEARS ago. All things end eventually, and someone had to live through it, hate it, talk about it, and then it ends, just like this is now. Whether it happend or is happening is irrelevant. Past present or future matters nothing.
This shit will all one day be fodder in an oudated book just like all that other rotten ass stuff. Then this garbage will have something in common with that garbage too.
And I know the what and whys of the iron curtain ordeal. And that treaty solved nothing, and until it fell, that time period was considered "the cold war" because it was an ongoing item, with a country that was not in friendly relations with us...hey, I learned up on this stuff...I've seen rocky IV a zillion times.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Jan 02, 2003 - 02:21 AM
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Know what? I dont' think it even matters anymore because

THE FUCKING WORLD IS ENDING.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030101/ap_on_he_me/human_cloning_5

THere...I said it...I'm gonna go buy guns now.



Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by feralucce on Jan 02, 2003 - 09:14 AM
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what does this have to do with the topic?


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Jan 02, 2003 - 05:25 PM
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Everything! the world is ending!!


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 02, 2003 - 06:33 PM
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HUZZAaaahhhhhh......


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 07:30 AM
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I would have thought you'd quired guns after the whole hair incident....


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 10:31 AM
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LOL :D

No, the "hair incident" are the exact reasons I DON'T own guns *snicker*
I can imagine hanging out in a women's prison, some gigantic man woman gangster type would be like "whatchoo in fo?" and I'd say "she fucked up my hair".
Then I would promptly become "girlmeat" for the next umpteen years of my sentence :P


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by Domkitten (domkittenish@spanking.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 07:29 AM
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Well, this got off topic really quickly, but I don't think clones signify the end of the world. If so a sheep called dolly is really to blame.

Never trust anything that comes from a scot experimenting with his sheep, though.


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Re: Where is Our Social Conscience?
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Jan 03, 2003 - 10:34 AM
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Human cloning certainly does herald the end of the world, if you ask me. It was done by a religious cult called the "rayliens" (spelled?) and they fucking named her EVE!

Of course it's off topic, but not too terribly....because little girls getting mowed down by tanks won't mean a hill of beans when the WORLD IS ENDING!


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