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| Articles: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself |
Posted by
Poison on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 05:41 PM PST
Even though I can't speak for everybody in the world and in this matter I don't have a point of reference, I feel I am able to discuss my own view of the matter.
A "libertine" is a person who lives an immoral life and always looks for pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, is the dictionary definition. The definition is wrong. A libertine is a person who has risen beyond society's moldy expectations and policies, a person who is able to cherish his or her peers without judging them by their gender, race, religion, job, look, or practices, a libertine is a free individual who has understood a greater truth. Though the libertine life is condemned by many, it is the most amazingly happy existence anybody can imagine, since the dawn of men. I won't lie or pretend that it is not without risk, but when you realize how much you get back, if you only just love people for who they are, you feel you can cope with anything being thrown at you.
Why should we live up to anyone's expectations except ourselves? Why should we accept something just because our so-called "superiors" tell us? How come people feel entitled to pass judgment on everything that they don't understand?
There is no jealousy in the libertine life, nor are there gender imposed barriers. But best of all, there is no fear, no more. A true libertine will not fear life, will not fear exploring every little aspect of it and will not fear actually stepping forward, alone and with an open mind. This individual will take the experience given to him and filter it through his/her own mind and "heart" thus managing to keep what fits the best and growing somehow through that. There is another matter that addresses this issue, sex and affection, as well as any physical satisfaction of the sort are pleasures libertines do NOT do without. While sex may be a taboo for most people, or what am I saying? - for old fashioned people, libertines feel it is a beautiful act that has no comparison in the world, and what else but sex and affection brings us infinite joy? Libertines possess an untainted passion in all their acts of love and lust, because, let's face it: one is no good without the other. It is this passion that angers outsiders of this belief, practice, life style, philosophy or whatever you should choose to call it. No matter how a libertine should choose to express it, be it gentle and tender, or rough and painful, sex is still beautiful and perfect, and should never be regarded as wrong and sinful. Concepts such as these build a gruesome verisimilitude of the world. However, this horrible picture blissfully lacks from a libertines perspective. Yet another defining trait.
Everybody says there is no way love can occur when monogamy is not present. But monogamy and/or heterosexuality are set concepts, while libertinage breaks through everything and offers a new, more exciting and free concept of what love is, or should be. This free love is as beautiful as poetry. Ever heard that line that says "If you love them set them free"? This line, though a bit of a cliché is true and living somewhere, deep in our minds. Libertines have regained that lost and "forbidden" thought and put it into practice. What came out of it? Ecstasy and rapture, or in contemporary language: polyamory (http://www.polyamory.org/) (means "loving more than one") - having multiple relationships with the knowledge and consent of your partner(s) rather than by deceit. But polyamory is just an example of what libertinage has come to symbolize. Actually loving the partners, if only for a short time, and I can't emphasize this enough: not in a possessive or restraining way, but a free sort of love, is real at the time in the mind of a libertine. Love can come and go, last for long or short periods of time, fade or burn or be completely out of the picture, but it can take the shape of anyone's character.
Why limit oneself to just one partner or just one gender? Isn't everybody supposed to be looking for that lost part of themselves, the big love, the soul mate? Well, then, how about if it's the same gender as you, or how about if it isn't just one person? Are you going to deny it the right to step forward and, in excitement, offer its hopes, dreams and expectations to you? Thinking like this, doesn't it seem petty and cruel? Why close the door to one side because society preaches for it? Why is it so imperative you do only what society says? Society limits not only our choices, but also our lives. If you should choose to listen to it, it will deprive you of your natural curiosity and need for pleasure. It is for these very reasons that libertines are cast out, because they don't see the boundaries anymore, they cannot be told what to do, whom to love and whom to marry, to an extent, although I'm not sure marriage is the best example. (Why should a stupid little piece of paper be the proof for the love and support we have to give out?)
Why I entitled this "The art of loosing yourself?" Loosing simply implies casting out that side of you society crafted or built for its own benefit, not considering the individuals needs and pleasures. In order for the world to work, as it has so far, people need continuity; there is nothing certain in the life of a libertine. Half of the pleasure received by a libertine is that of enjoying that uncertainty. Not knowing what tomorrow has to offer and smiling at it, loving beauty and sincerity, considering the term "relationship" as vague as "normality", focusing on what people have to say rather than what they are labeled as are some of the so-called principles a libertine values. Hurt, pain and suffering do not belong, jealousy and stupidity only have pain to offer, while libertinage offers new grounds to explore, new satisfaction and happiness to experience.
Why do I call it an art? My definition of art is anything that worships beauty – projected in any of a million ways possible. There aren't many things more beautiful than an open and contented mind.
Life is NOT a torment, living by someone else's standards and trying to please everybody IS. Libertinage is about magnificence, beauty and/(in) rapture. I don't know if I actually managed to get to you people reading this by what I said, maybe I should continue and fill page upon page with words of and about beauty, love and the like, or maybe I should just ask: who are you and are you satisfied with yourself?
Love beauty, freedom and determination, love yourselves as you are and love others. Be satisfied.
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| Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself | Login/Create an account | 48 Comments |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Nov 10, 2002 - 03:32 AM
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Sometimes I think they let stuff like this get posted just to see everybody get in massive fights. Like pouring coca-cola down an ant hole.
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com)
on Nov 10, 2002 - 01:08 PM
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Loosing yourself also means being able to not fall under the ideals of loosing yourself. While polyamory is what works for some, it doesn't for others. I have absolutely no problem with those that love more than one, but as for myself there is no way it would work or be right for me.
I've met a few "libertines" that were SO libertine that they couldn't UNDERSTAND how anyone could live differently, that having ONE devoted partner could be right for someone, that "playing nice" could ever be necessary or get you anywhere in life or make you happy, and who also bitched about "Trends" or "sheep people" and "idiots"...when they're supposed to love EVERYTHING. I've been called closed minded and "blind" by libertines, simply because I don't see things as 100% LIBERAL as they do....because a sense of order and structure and PERSONAL "Rules" are important to me and make ME comfortable and happy, as well as "getting along" with family and the things that go with it.
I say be happy however you can...either full on "libertine" or just living as you want...even if listening to "rules" and "structures" are what make your life full.
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by DarkMistress on Nov 10, 2002 - 03:19 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | live and let live is sometimes a difficult concept for others to grasp. It's that whole..just because you think its right doesn't mean it's right for everyone type of deal. Some people get it, some people don't...and a lot of people don't. |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Nov 10, 2002 - 08:30 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | Zactly...live and let friggin live. Even if you don't agree/like/whatever someone/something else, doesn't mean you have to be a dick. It's a glorious concept. To leave something alone, even if you hate it :)
Mom always said if you pick a scab it'll never heal, but man when you're bored enough.... |
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Re: couldn't help myself
by Icarus (someone@somewhere.something) on Nov 12, 2002 - 03:25 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | "don't pick the scab, or it will never heal" -one of those manson songs ^_______^
-The Ikarus |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by Poison on Nov 10, 2002 - 03:21 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://www.poisonivy.8k.com | I don't think I've ever met a libertine who judged others because they weren't libertines as well...but I think I knew they existed, somewhere in the back of my mind. I disagree with them, I say take everybody as they are and don't try to change them just because you feel like it, that's so selfish.
And yeah, if marriage or monogamy makes you happy, that's more than perfect... for you. and on the rules bit - everybody has them, or at least something that (slightly) resembles them. |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by Devin (devin-at-vibechild-dot-com) on Nov 10, 2002 - 03:54 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://devin.vibechild.com/ | | Well, bettie_x is from Seattle, and I've met the kind of people she's referring to. "Open Minded" Seattle people are a little um.... Off the mark? |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by Closetgothbabe on Nov 11, 2002 - 07:54 AM
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You have to do what makes you happy, that is very important. I know I do what makes me happy and dont give a shit what anyone thinks about it. I also respect what others do, and there decisions on life if thats whats good for them then its ok with me. My parents dont seem to understand this , maybe they will be more accepting one of these days *sighs*
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by DarkMistress on Nov 11, 2002 - 01:46 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | My parents are the same, don't care though. One of these days it will become apparent that my viewpoints and the way I dress and all that other stuff is not going to change. And if not then..well then whatever. That's their problem not mine. |
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Cut back on the prunes.
by Monolycus on Nov 11, 2002 - 05:03 PM
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Okay, I can no longer keep this inside without it chewing a hole through my gut. The subtitle of this article (and several instances within the article itself) mentions the concept of "loosing" oneself... which I had just presumed to be a typo and was prepared to let it go at that. Unfortunately, others have gone on to expand upon the idea of "loosing" themselves. The word that I believe you are looking for here is "losing" (hopefully you have only temporarily misplaced yourself. I am sure you will turn up in the laundry. That's where most of the things that I have lost eventually turn up) and not "loosing"... which would imply that you simply need more dietary fiber.
Once again, I am sorry that it had to come to a lecture, but errors left unchecked will only multiply. As Lao Tsu advised us in the Tao Te Ching: "Once is a typo; Twice is carelessness; Three times is grounds for placing a call to the Grammar Police". I hope this has helped. I am
misplaced.
~Monolycus.
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Nov 11, 2002 - 06:40 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | I think I hurt myself laughing over this one... thanks, Mono... I needed that... |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Nov 11, 2002 - 06:45 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | Although, in the context of the article, loosing oneself could be right in a way... she could have meant loosening up, not being so uptight, or "loosing yourself" as in freeing yourself to do what you feel is right for you, without worrying about what society as a whole think. That is the context in which I took it, actually...
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Monolycus on Nov 12, 2002 - 05:35 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | | Valid point, M_J, although "loosening" would have been the word to use in that case. |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by callei on Nov 11, 2002 - 07:22 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | i was trying to ignore that little vocabulary oops, although it is much funnier if you pay attention to what it really says.... |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Devin (devin-at-vibechild-dot-com) on Nov 11, 2002 - 07:29 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://devin.vibechild.com/ | Be nice to the "english as a second language" people guys.
If you can spell nearly this good in Romanian, you can laugh.
*lectures* |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Nov 12, 2002 - 03:04 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | | aw, hey... I wasn't picking on the language... I was just tickled by what Mono said... didn't mean anything by it... |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Monolycus on Nov 12, 2002 - 05:26 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | I wasn't being mean-spirited about writing that (a bit facetious maybe, but that's my way). I have made some tremendous grammatical goofs in many languages (including my mother tongue) myself, and I am always happy when they are pointed out to me so that I can improve. It's a bit like having a piece of spinach in your teeth... you just hope that someone will mention it so you don't end up walking around all day that way. A moment's embarrassment salvages the job interview later.
What had prompted me more than anything to write, however, is that some of our "English as a first language" people had begun to adopt the mistake. As I said in my first post, errors left unchecked will only multiply. In my own backward way, I was just trying to be helpful. I am
loose.
~Monolycus. |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Nov 12, 2002 - 07:51 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | Why is it other people can make a grammar call, and not get lectured? What got into you all of a sudden? Geez, it wasn't hateful or mean... it was a joke, and not even necessarily directed at Poison. She really wasn't in need of a rescue there. Bettie was, but she's perfectly capable of defending herself, and besides, I'm sure she'd have a sense of humor about it. I thought Mono had made a rather fun post and cute play on words there, and it was somewhat on topic, at least one of my subsequent posts in reply to it was. Are there new hard and fast rules as to what kind of comments can be made, or opinions be expressed? Are only certain people allowed to say things (and sometimes scathing and embarrassing things) about people's grammar these days? Nobody's picking on anyone here. And I think someone was rather harsh to say that this is off topic, and moderate it so, while saying that ants swimming in coke is funny, and therefore more fit for viewing pleasure. Let's try to be a bit more libertine in our views, and not stifle someone just because something is said or done that happens to rub you the wrong way. |
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Re: Cut back on the prunes.
by Monolycus on Nov 13, 2002 - 06:33 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | Thank you, M_J. It means a lot to me that someone would step up to bat for me... I was beginning to get the impression that I was the next bit of fair game in the popularity saber-rattling dance that goes on here sometimes. Thank you for recognising that my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote that first post and for having the sense of humour to recognise that nobody was being attacked as well. Perhaps you will get moderated to a score of three for being insightful.
The funny thing about running to the rescue of pretty damsels who aren't in need of it... they do not tend to remember the "rescuing" three weeks after the fact, but we big, bad wolves carry those scars for a lifetime. I am
a very big, very bad, very offtopic
~Monolycus. |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by silesius on Nov 11, 2002 - 11:15 PM
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first i want to thankyou.. i've been working a site now a while.. haven't envisioned such a wonderful synthisis of ideas as going on here..
so i'm looking for a site to sidicate.. my web master picks this out because he likes goth..
hey.. now i have my share of manson cds.. the poeple with the mice just would never let me into there click..
now.. ok.. i'm not a teen.. i'm feeling that this is for teens..
oh.. ok.. then i read this article..
let me show you my entry from a few days ago to give you the picture in my mind
i'm figuring what to do from here.. my gosh.. people around me get so fed up with my raw food fasting.. vote with your purchase campain.. plus.. i'm an artist.. a jobless on the computer all the time artist.. truelly facinating.. i feel an opening where none have yet dreamed.. i know that something wonderful is on the horizon
let us begin this interview with questions about relationship
i want to know how you define it
i'm interested in understanding what you have in mind for long term envolvements
now .. the reason i'm asking..
i have been pulled in two directions
one.. the player' .. the have sex with multiple partners.. haveing sex is just what attracted people do.. no rules.. everybody is with everyone who they find sexually arousing.. very healthy.. i see nothing wrong with this so long as.. like i think everyone is mature and mutual in such a relationship.. i don't know!
two.. the believer in true love.. just waiting for the right person to come along.. they are going to show up.. if they don't then.. well.. um.. i guess.. no sex.. just waiting for someone who is going to want to create an exclusive family orentated relationship.. thinking marriage.. kids..
i don't have my life together in any way shape or form.. i'm no place close to.. i don't even have a car..
ok.. i'm thinking.. so what is this coming to..
when i do get a car.. then i'm like a top shelf pick of a mate.. what are my rules of engagement?
perhaps i'm shallow
what i want to know is.. in your own life.. what is good loving?
what kind of sexual relations do you feel comfortable with..
are these choices that you have made?
where have those choices been derived.. i'm interested in knowing the expeirence has lead you to this conclusion of belief
how many poeple do you engage in the prospect of relationship at the same time?
what is the line of friendship?
what is the difference between having sex and making love?
i'll tell you what this has to do with me..
i have a difficult time with these questions
i want to know that if i'm ever with a person that i'm not hurting that person..
myself included..
that in the future what ever happens between us.. we will both be better off
i think this line of conversation is so very important
i don't know.. tell me how you feel
what makes you a freind forever?
'''
when i read about livertine.. i'm thinking wow!! this is what i had a sense to question.. i was looking for someone who could answer this.. this is the perspective i was wondering if it existed..
i think that this site will be a wonderful compliment to my work.. so i would really for now love to mutually pursue a co-virtual modulation..
pleasure through you!!
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Time to open this can of coke and start pouring--
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com)
on Nov 12, 2002 - 08:20 PM
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Sex is a basic biological function. As far as I know, three different species of mammal are the only creatures on earth that recieve a sense of 'pleasure' from the act of reproduction. Humans, as far as is known at this point by biology, are the only one of the three species to able to achieve autonomous climax(masturbation).
I loathe the concept of love between people. Hell, on it's base, I loathe people. Nothing can inspire as much hatred, virulence and absolute intolerance in my mind as people who believe in polyamory(the end result of this self-inquiry is reached by realizing that I not only hate people who love eachother, but who also claim to love multiple people simultaneously).
Passing off geniunely sleazy, amoral and selfish beliefs under the guise of passion-- passion for passion is not only self-destructive, but ultimately corrosive at the basic idea of impassioned art, writing, beliefs or even views of life. Passion about something is ultimately seflessness dedicated to the topic or ideal-- which libertinage is not. Libertinage is indulgence into sex and a view that glares at it as an object of curiousity and exploration.
Is it about exploration, really? About testing the limits, pushing the envelope, and believing that we are to do no less for the betterment of society? Because ultimately libertinage is "what love should be?" Defining abstract concepts is difficult at best-- and attempting to sell them off to the rest of society is even harder. The threat of being run through the streets of some gawdawful village late at night and being impaled by the farm insutrments of a hundred angry peasants is so pleasant to the mind. But people with passion do not rise to the chase. They die quietly in their prison cells, neither rushing to the windows attempting to give the Masonic sign of ditress and then being shot by a volley of rifle fire(for all you Mormons out there, this pun was intended to rile you, and I hope you are running over the lines of your blood oath to the prophets). Real passionate people become martyrs without accident or without the blindness of followers.
This entire article offended me from the moment I saw it-- not from the fact that Libertinage has hurt people I know, and feel platonic love for-- but for the simple air of it. Losing yourself, casting out the side of society that binds you, free love, beauty, art, freedom, determination. All words fanatics use to make something horrible sound like something indispensable, something that to cast out as both dangerous, stupid, and self-destructive, would damage all of society and all the people within it. The height of ignorance to ignore and not practice-- this is what offends me. Shoving a beer can up a woman's ass, and trying to hit it when you have an orgasm while some fucker in a corner makes cat noises while he licks curdled milk off a grungy sesame street plate and some bondage queen screams at him at the top of her lungs while trying to urinate on him and whip him at the same time, and the aforementioned woman with the beer can in her ass orally copulates a bloated man in elf ears reclining in his velvet cloak is not art. It's just a bunch of idiots getting off because they need those things, that sense of communal love. Embarassment is the root, acceptance is the answer. Just like the fucking cults.
I know a girl who is a libertine. Boyfriends in the double digits, a few girlfriends, and none a partner for more than a week without the consent of another. She quit recently though as she contracted a venereal disease. She's in pain. She cries at night. She's 15.
I hope some of you who are considering this at least think of tha girl before you go out and enjoy "passion" and "beauty" and "true love" with 6 others. Think of a 15-year-old girl on a farm, scarred for life and crying because of the pain. Burned her candle twice and bright, and it burned out twice as fast.
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Vanilla Coke at that.
by Monolycus on Nov 13, 2002 - 03:35 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | Okay, I'll bite. As long as people want to read me as offensive, I can give the public what it's after. If you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly... and if you're going to be seen as an asshole anyway, be the best damned asshole you can be.
We may not be on exactly the same page, Comedian, but we're reading the same book. I saw the article as another in a long line of frippy, largely unsubstantial arguments for people to disregard the consequences of their actions as well. It goes without saying that preaching hedonism to hedonists is going to go over well, and any nay-saying (no matter how logically consistent) is going to be attacked as unwarranted or disregarded entirely.
Hey, if you want to follow your uncontrolled id into the Dionysian depths of depravity, be my frigging guest... but let's not kid ourselves into believing this is a philosophy, all right? Once you have rationalised to yourself the pursuit of your carnal appetites at all expenses, the next stop in your Grand Celestial Journey of shaking off the constraints of civility is to rationalise lashing out at those who disagree with you... I mean, hey, it's all about pleasure, right? And punching that guy who made you uncomfortable was pretty pleasurable, wasn't it? So much for the slappy, happy, crispy, crunchy, peaceful flower-power. "If it feels good, do it" usually ended up in injuries or fatalities in the sixties as well.
Call it libertinage, Khlisty faith, the Dionysian Ideal, or Bob, it always amounts to the same thing... people listening to their inner four-year-old at the expense of people around them. "But it's about love!" No, it isn't. "What is love?" is an older and even more irritating waste of time than "What is goth?" If you want to define love as being about damning the torpedoes and selfishly pursuing your carnal appetites, then you are welcome to do that... but a rose by any other name still stinks. If you really "love" everyone so deeply, then losing yourself is the LAST thing you want to do. First, loving indicates that you are concerned with the feelings of the other person and not simply looking for that big "O". "Losing yourself" only leaves you inside your own head. How is that not the antithesis of being concerned about the feelings of others? I could go on about how this is a perfect example of enantiodromia again, but nobody listened to me the first fifteen times I mentioned it.
I endorse the Categorical Imperative, namely that one's behaviour should be governed by the same principles which should govern ALL person's behaviours... but I seem to be a minority of one in that. If everyone engages in corrupt business practices, everyone suffers... if everyone is being a "libertine" and pursuing their own pleasures (don't kid yourself, that is the root of it), everyone suffers equally. It's the same self-indulgent psychology behind driving like a maniac and trusting that everyone else is doing their job and looking out for you. It's that inner four-year-old again. No matter what argument I make, if it isn't what that warm and fuzzy little id sitting on your left shoulder wants to hear, it isn't going to make the first bit of difference. Okay... I'm not a hot chick and I'm not telling you that it's okay to throw your inhibitions to wind... that's all you need to know. Let your offended retorts begin! |
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Bravo!
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com) on Nov 13, 2002 - 03:42 PM
(User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | | Strangely ironic the vanilla coke commercials all have the mafiosos rewarding curiousity. An excellent performance, and welcome to the balcony where "If you can't say anything nice at all to anybody, then come sit over here next to me." |
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Re: Bravo!
by DarkMistress on Nov 13, 2002 - 04:24 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | hey that shows up as a quote in my little 'random cynicism' part of my subprofile. Off the subject, sorry. |
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Re: Vanilla Coke at that.
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com) on Nov 13, 2002 - 08:43 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | I believe that Robert Heinlein put it best (although he probably wasn't the first to make such a comment) that "Love is where you care more about another person's happiness than your own." I believe in the most general definition of polyamory... loving more than one. I love all of my kids, my family members, my friends, many, many people out there... who's to say that it's impossible to love more than one person romantically? (romance... there's another kettle of fish, and deserves it's own article. Suffice to say that the comcept was , I believe, invented sometime in the middle ages, and was a fantasy then as it is now)
Caring more about another person's happiness... that means you can let that person pursue that which will make him or her happy, without holding back, without regret. That also means you will do everything in your power to ensure that person's happiness, even to the detriment of your own. (sounds terribly masochistic, doesn't it?) It works when both (or more) people have the same regard for one another. That means that someone else is taking care of your happiness, because you sure don't have time for your own happiness, not with taking care of everyone else's. (Wait, that's co-depencency, and enabling and all kinds of nasty little psychological concepts)
*sigh* Maybe the TRUE LOVE believers are right... that wondrous, hormonal feeling you get when you look into an incredibly sexy, attractive person's eyes is the be-all, end-all of existance, and the most noble concept in the world worth pursuing... and it lasts forever, and with that one person, nothing else matters, as long as you have your TRUE LOVE standing beside you, giving you all those fuzzy, warm, gushy, wet underdrawers feelings.
Or maybe the hedonists are right, and nothing counts, except pleasure, (your own, of course, who has time for someone else's pleasure when you're so busy pursuing your own.. and if you don't look out for yourself, who will?) be damned the consequences..
The libertines. The ones doing everything in their power to buck the system, to fight for god-given freedoms, like the right to sexual pleasure, the right to drown yourself in drug and alcohol-induced euphoria, to wander through the streets naked (hey, we're not hurting anyone...) to fight for the right to party, be damned the consequences.
My personal philosophy, you can love more than one. You can definitely be romantically (there's that word again) or even shallowly sexually, attracted to more than one. Physical pleasure is a good, glorious thing, and makes life entertaining, and sometimes, bearable when nothing else can make it so. Certain harmless drugs, and alcohol are a part of that... so is bungee jumping and other thrill-seeking activities. Going about any of these in a stupid, thoughtless, or insensitive manner is WRONG. It hurts yourself, it hurts others, especially those who love you. Polyamory is a wonderful concept. It works very well when people think carefully about the emotional, physical, and mental work that has to go into it. It IS work. You have to be exceptionally careful of people's feelings, because there are more people to hurt if you go about it the wrong way. It's NOT about satisfying physical urges. It's NOT about doing something daring to piss off the (religious or otherwise) right. It is so very, very NOT about doing something to be special or different. It is about sharing yourself, and those you are deeply loving toward, with others. Not just physically. It's about loving people so much that you can't get jealous if the one you love to distraction falls in love with someone else. There's no room for jealousy. By the definition of love, all that should matter to you, if you REALLY love someone, is that person's happiness, and if their happiness comes from somewhere BESIDES YOU, you should be happy that they have their happiness. THAT alone should fulfill you and make you happy. And , yes, one of the biggest problems with people who try polyamory is
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A Finer Hammer
by Monolycus on Nov 14, 2002 - 07:46 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | Well rebutted, M_J, and you have necessitated that I clarify my position. I have no a priori bias against polyamory or any other lifestyle choice taken on a case-by-case basis. It is not my opinion that people should become Puritans as I feel that is an equal, but opposite, response to the situation and just as destructive. What I object to is self-interest at all costs.
You have communicated that there is no reward without risk but also that there is no reward without personal responsibility. The libertine doctrine, unfortunately, is far too easily applicable a rationale to engage in destructive behaviour for me to endorse it. Nearly everyone feels that they are above the corrupting influence of being handed a moral blank cheque and it is my position that the overwhelming majority are not. (I know that some people already spoke out against Dosteovsky's book "Crime and Punishment", but the argument is outlined there if anyone is interested.)
So, to clarify, I am not condemning any given social deviation (such as polyamory). I am, however, saying that any argument one uses to rationalise throwing off all self-restraint (viz. "losing oneself" in the pursuit of one's own pleasure) is merely sophistry designed to subdue one's superego so that one can do anything they want, ultimately at the expense of everyone around them.
"The sharp edge of a razor is narrow and difficult to pass over. Thus, the path to salvation is hard." -The Upanishads. |
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Love and Selflessness
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com) on Nov 20, 2002 - 10:25 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | Riddled throughout this entire thread have been the ideas of selflessness and devotion and trust being raised, supposedly these high moral concepts being used to conquer feelings of jealousy in polyamoric/libertine relationships. It just doesn't add up. For all those same reasons that people invest in other people, the feelings of betrayal and jealousy only become stronger when the first seeds of distrust or suspcicion are planted. Maybe only in one-on-one relationships, but it is feasible that the alternative lifestyles can indulge in the darker side of human instinct and paranoia. I wouldn't know. Because all of this 'love' is a crock.
Love. What defines this emotion? Dictionaries say something like, 'feelings of caring and devotion to another person'. The concept is easily transmuted to be places, objects, ideas. Passion. I love things-- a sunrise over a glass of cognac, a warm fireplace, music, serenity. I love to fight, as well. I love to fight about ideas and ethos and morals and concepts of what is right and wrong. Because everything can be wrong and right at the same time.
People don't give much thought as to why things are illegal. They just know whether or not they are legal. Marijuana slows reaction times and can result in horrible car accidents or other problems. Cocaine and other drugs basically remove effective members of society and replace them with one-minded consumers. Adultery destroys relationships based upon the infidelities of a single partner and can result in death/murder, lawsuits or marriage counselors. Alimony if your checkbook's tight. Why is polyamory illegal?
Polygamy in America really started with the Mormons. Expanse of the idea of a man's kingdom based upon his many wives would increase the size of his kingdom int he next world, where he was his own god. I despise Mormons. Not because of polygamy, but because of all else of that loathesome religion. The massacre at Mountain Meadows should have been enough, the wars between states, the manipulation of territories, American Indians and the cheating of the mining industry should have been enough. But they've stuck around. And polygamy was illegal. And none of them ever spent a day in prison.
Going back thousands of years you see polygamy all over the place-- multiple wives for men in power, concubines, etc.. But does any of that really matter today? Most of this was indulgence.
But what changes that indulgence from the indulgence that polyamory and libertinage enjoy today? Because people are bisexual that changes something? Caligula was bisexual. Hell, it was rumored back in the times where Syphilis was a sign of high society that those who carried the black warts were bisexual. Indulgence then, and indulgence now.
What really sucks my tit is the fact that the other partner has to suffer under complete and utter selflessness for the duration of the other's indulgence. Sharing yourself, or giving yourself? Sacrifice of identity. Self-realization? Realization of the fact that your partner cannot fully appease your appetites is not in any way self-realization, it's just acceptance of frailty.
How long has any successful polyamoric relationship lasted where either of the partners did not need the other to get by? Most marriages are simply held for the indulgence of one partner and because the other partner desperatelyneeds the first to get by. One needs, the other needs sex. Introduce a third into the concept, and who suffers? Giving up one's identity for a relationship is one thing, but completely surrendering to appease another is pretty destructive to a erson's character.
I don't believe in it. I don't believe it lasts, and I believe it's ultimately destructive to the character of all people involved. But I'm celibate. Maybe I'm wrong. |
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Re: Love and Selflessness
by Cashmere on Nov 21, 2002 - 03:44 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | How about this: love is what you make of it. There are those who believe that love equals indulgence, and use everything in their power to get what they need to fill a supposedly empty life. There isn't always a sense of needing in love or in a relationship, there could be a concept called "sharing" where nobody involved sacrifices their own emotions to appease another. Sacrifice in any sense implies a hierarchy, and those relationships are the ones that do not last. Notice the hierarchy in a small setting never lasts if both parties are allowed to grow emotionally: this is why we leave our parents.
And people don't give much thought to ANYTHING nowadays. Even that previous sentence was a blanket statement riddled with holes that could easily bring a person to a sobbing fit provided that there was logic used to analyse it. There is a precedent of love being painful, and people believe that to be so. I love, and have loved, but cannot immediately think of a situation where it caused me grievous amounts of pain. There are situations where love can be something positive, but it is an emotion and can be used to hurt others. Anger an obstinance have their uses as well.
And since when does polyamoury automatically mean indulgence? Are they synonymous now? People will always be giving in to urges to find someone else because their hormones are raging, but why does it become indulgence if it is open in an active relationship? It is still indulgence, but hiding makes it irresponsible. And that is the heart of why there is pain. Those who contract diseases or cause pain in their relationships through over indulgence and taking advantage of a giving partner are being irresponsible. But that is also human nature.The lack of a sacrifice that I mentioned earlier is also only my take on this: I personally like feeling happy and loved, but I do not sacrifice my identity for any of it. I love, I share, and I am still me. Every single person that I love maintains their own being, there is no "us". Those who choose to own their lovers can do so at their own accord; I am not here to tell them any different. I am also speaking from an almost entirely egocentric view, but what I know relates directly to me. And there is love without sex, there is love while being celibate. The world in this sense isn't as base as celibacy, monogamy, or wanton fucking with diseases everywhere. If there si no definition of love that fits you than make your own if you so choose. The definition is vague because there is such a difference.
And you are right: love doesn't last. Neither does life. |
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Re: Love and Selflessness
by Cashmere on Dec 03, 2002 - 10:38 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | *blush*
You know that my cheeks turn bright scarlet when brilliant yummy people say something like that to me. |
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Re: Love and Selflessness
by Ianthe99 on Nov 21, 2002 - 10:40 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | Simply put Comedian, you are wrong. |
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Woweee
by MystryssRavynDarque (A1MANDI04@AOL.COM) on Nov 15, 2002 - 06:07 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | Wow Comedian,
That was just great. I mean, you made me feel for that little girl. I know many people who do the same as she did, and one of them may be pregnent and she is 15 as well. I feel so horrible for her. This made me cry so deep inside it hurts. I completely agree with you. You know exactly how I am. Next time we talk, I will bring this up, because man, I know that now you believe some of the same things I do. I mean, about the little girl...now I have someone that I can really talk to about it. I believe in accepting everyone for who they are without looking at their race, religion, gender, or sexual preference. Yet I do not believe in the other. I could never do that. |
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Re: Time to open this can of coke and start pouring--
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Nov 18, 2002 - 12:21 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://bettie_x.tripod.com/ | This must be the can of coke and anthilll you were talking about.
Comedian, I know you hate people, and I know you've seen people in your life fucked up by a lot of things, but not all of those examples are rules of the game. They are the tragic and horrible results of trying to fit into a lifestyle they know nothing about.
I don't necessarily agree with the whole libertine ideal....I think it's sort of silly, self aggrandizing, and sexed up disneylandish. It's impossible to love everything and everyone...but if you wanna try, then have at it...just don't expect me to ice your wounds.
On the other side of it, on polyamory, if all are adult, and all assume the risks of such adventures, then they have nobody to blame but themselves for the ensuing drama, heartache, physical and emotional consequences and so on.
Hell, if they achieve some sort of pleasure, emotional or physical, out of it, then let them be. Everyone must make and lie in their own beds. |
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Re: Time to open this can of coke and start pouring--
by Comedian (eccentrically_long@yahoo.com) on Nov 19, 2002 - 12:03 AM
(User info | Send a Message) http://http:// | | Had a friend stationed in Taiwan, he was fond of graphic descriptions of the crabs they have over there. Apparently they like to eat your legs. |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by Merry_Widow on Nov 13, 2002 - 05:36 PM
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I love, and I am happy. That's all there is to it.
By the by, Mono, you never came across as an asshole. Not to me, anyway.
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Vielen Dank
by Monolycus on Nov 14, 2002 - 07:49 AM
(User info | Send a Message) | | Thank you for saying so, M_W. Fatigue, crippling depression and the growing certainty that the Universe has arrayed the forces of evil against me have all combined to put me on the tetchy side. *insert smiley-faced emoticon here* |
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Re: Vielen Dank
by Merry_Widow on Nov 14, 2002 - 04:04 PM
(User info | Send a Message) | | Hmmm...tell you what, have a drink, and take a nice long nap. I'll keep an eye out for the nija monkeys while you're down. We'll see how you feel when you wake up. |
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Re: Libertinage - The Art of Loosing Yourself
by inward (-)
on Jul 30, 2004 - 05:21 PM
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If "losing simply implies casting out that side of you society crafted or built for its own benefit, not considering the individuals needs and pleasures", then we are all losing ourselves, be us libertines or not. We all relate to society, to groups - rejecting or accepting their mentalities, according to our own needs.
You know what they say, one man's meat is another man's poison :)
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