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Articles: Goth Is Not
Posted by ThatOneWastedChick on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 11:17 AM PST

Theories
Everyone tries to define goth. When they do, they try to define it by what it is. Thus, the many variations and different opinions on the definition of goth. Well, this confused me and a great many other people by the looks of it. So, I started thinking, why not start defining it on what it isn’t? While many people have different opinions on what goth is most agree on what goth is not. So wouldn’t it make more sense to start defining it on what it isn’t? Is this really such a bad idea? I think everyone would agree that goth is not about conformity right? Would they also agree that goth is not about religion or race? Is goth about death? I think everyone would shout a big NO on that one.

Is Goth about the clothes? Is Goth about being morbid or dark? Is Goth about shunning those who do not have the same ideas or opinions as you? Is it about sexuality or drugs? Is it about drowning in despair? I don’t think so. What do you guys think?

I’m also pretty sure Goth isn’t about music, angst poetry, being emotionless, or being cold. Am I right or am I right?

So far I am pretty sure the majority of you agree with me on the points I’ve made above. So instead of having a zillion different definitions on what goth is why not just have on basic idea of what it isn’t and go from there? It’s a whole lot easier. Trust me.

Now, I’m not saying drop all your ideas of what Goth is. I know I still have mine. I’m just saying, when someone comes up to you with a different idea it doesn’t mean their not Goth. You could probably both agree on what it isn’t and who knows? Perhaps that what Goth really is... or isn't. :)


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Goth Is Not | Login/Create an account | 63 Comments
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Re: Goth Is Not
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com)
on Oct 16, 2002 - 12:23 PM
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look around shmengs past articles. there are TONS of dicussions about this.



Re: Goth Is Not
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com) on Oct 16, 2002 - 12:28 PM
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It's basically 1/4 of what shmeng is.
"Being goff is this."
"You're not goff, I am."
"There is no such thing as being goff."
And so on. Like the Energizer Bunny, it just keeps going and going and going...


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Re: Goth Is Not
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Oct 16, 2002 - 04:29 PM
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yes exactly. and its getting super repetitive.

yes. goth. wow. okay. lets move on shall we? = )


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So....
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com) on Oct 16, 2002 - 05:26 PM
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How 'bout those Eagles? *smiles for a moment*


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Re: So....
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Oct 17, 2002 - 09:55 AM
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*laugh* they fly. high. in the air. and make babies.


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Re: So....
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com) on Oct 17, 2002 - 12:53 PM
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I...ment the football team...


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Re: So....
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Oct 17, 2002 - 02:54 PM
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which...i know nothing about because i dislike sports. But hey! we can talk about them too!


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Re: So....
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com) on Oct 17, 2002 - 04:53 PM
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Here are three thoughts for ya:

I'm not really into many sports except for playing paintball and weightlifting on my time. I don't play organized sports. The only sports I watch are football and (underground) wrestling.
So yes, go Eagles!

You know the way people are reacting to this whole thing, you'd think the word "goff" is a curse. heh.

...I'm hungry.


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Re: So....
by ThatOneWastedChick on Oct 18, 2002 - 04:32 AM
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I just had some pasta. Can I intrest you in some?


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Re: So....
by VampCourt (Morbidchic@hotmail.com) on Oct 18, 2002 - 02:22 PM
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goth isnt a bad word. its just that.. a word. People seem to look far to into it. when its just a lable and whatever else its used to describe.

Who cares? I dont. I use goth to describe things. alot of people do.

And to be quite honest, the goth argument is WAY over done on this website.


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Re: So....
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com) on Oct 18, 2002 - 03:11 PM
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mmmm, pasta. Sure, I'll take some. I just had half a chicken too.

Yes, the goth argument is over done, and then some. People here should really calm down 'bout this. Like I said before:

"You know, the whole labeling ordeal is taken abit overboard. If you don't want to be called "goth" then take up a different lifestyle. As they say, can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

See, you know who you are, I know who I am and not ANY other person's label will change me. Those of us who choose to have a different appearance will be labeled, like "punks", "preps", "ravers" etc. Is it annoying to me? No. I really care less. Maybe we all should too. It may take off alittle stress from your day."

Ya know?


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Re: Goth Is Not
by DarkMistress on Oct 16, 2002 - 12:37 PM
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I don't even like to comment on what goth is or isn't anymore. The conflict can go on forever and ever. Besides, the poseurs are obvious, so why not leave everyone who's true to themselves alone? People percieve what goth is in their own way and opinions will always differ.



Re: Goth Is Not
by Mutant_Duckie on Oct 16, 2002 - 07:09 PM
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*grin* i just say i'm not goth and leave it at that. :)


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Re: Goth Is Not
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 16, 2002 - 09:26 PM
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Depends on your point of view...posers are obvious to people who think they're not.
I say to hell with it...I simply don't have time *grumble* I'd just rather focus on being bitter and improve my apple throwing aim. :D


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Re: Goth Is Not
by Psychopixi on Oct 16, 2002 - 01:10 PM
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Okay, so I see where you're coming from, and I agree, to an extent it can be agreed what goth isn't - it isn't about prejudice or hatred, it isn't about vampires etc... When you get right down to the nitty gritty though; goth stuff like music, or certain authors, I'd have to agree with a quote I found on the a.g. forum. (I lurk occasionally)

"'Goth stuff' is stuff that goths like. So if you are a goth, and you like Tori Amos cd's or sending Hello Kitty invitations out for your roman-style orgy, then those things are "goth stuff". Goths are whole people, not just one pie slice. - Xia"

Of course then you get to argue about whether or not you are goth enough to make the stuff you like 'goth stuff'. Ah, the funness of WIG threads!!



Re: Goth Is Not
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 16, 2002 - 09:30 PM
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Not about hatred and prejudice? For the most part I totally agree....but I hear a lot of bitching about "the NORMALS" and "the PREPPIES" and the "boring people" and how they're all ignorant and shallow and stupid because they dress from chain stores and like mainstream music. So, in essence, without knowing the person some of the so called "open minds" judge them on the same basis that they freak out about when it happens to them.
Funny, huh?
I'm not saying you are like this, it simply got me thinking on some hypocritical things I've heard from "free thinkers" and "open minds" in the past *grin*


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*Looks over own post*
by Psychopixi on Oct 17, 2002 - 02:55 AM
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Ah yes. I guess what I meant was it not being about picking on people for being different, not being about hating people for something as trivial as their clothing. I've heard loads of people, who claim to be open minded, bitch about trendies, merely because they <b>are</b> trendy and I think that's pathetic. Maybe this is hypocritical of me because I bitch about townies. Thing is, I hate them because they beat up and hospitalise the people I care for. That, for me, is a good enough reason to dislike someone.

When I said goth isn't about hatred or prejudice, I meant that it isn't about disliking people because of how they look, or what music they listen to - it isn't about judging people without even knowing them, or what sort of a person they are.

Does that make sense? *Apologetic grin*


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Re: *Looks over own post*
by DarkMistress on Oct 17, 2002 - 03:26 PM
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*confirms* yup that makes sense. May as easily point out that not all townies beat up the people you care for..so maybe use the word "some" unless they all do that..which would be sad..


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Re: *Looks over own post*
by Psychopixi on Oct 18, 2002 - 12:14 AM
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Well in my area there is a group who call themselves the SPC. (Sketty Park Crew) True, not every single one of them has beaten up someone I care about, but if they haven't then they were on the side lines watching and laughing. No, I'm not kidding.

So, yeah you're right I should say *some* townies, but when I refer to them I generally mean the SPC. The *entire* SPC, and that's quite a large group.


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Re: *Looks over own post*
by DarkMistress on Oct 18, 2002 - 12:58 PM
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Ohh. Guilty by association, that's not cool. Don't they have a bully program? I'm sorry..I've been corrupted. SPC, that's like the MVP's only they leave me and all my friends alone. They go after the people who owe them money or piss them off.


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Re: *Looks over own post*
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 12:08 AM
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Oh girlie you got me wrong, I wasn't talking about you, it's just your post got my head spinnin on things of that nature :)
A lot of the kids aren't about being picked on THEMSELVES or labeled THEMSELVES but it seems to them perfectly okay to do it to others...because they're all the SAME in their sameness and they're JEALOUS..yeah that's it cause they're NORMAL and we're SPECIAL..yeah....
It's just a peeve of mine. I haven't seen you do it, and I'm not calling you a hypocrite. You're too cute to be a bitch with your hot pink sox and doggies :)
Know what I call people in abercrombie and fitch jeans and ralph lauren polos that pick on people and make fun of people? Same thing I call waaay cooler than jesus trendy vinyl and fishnet clad catty ubers....
ASSHOLES!


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Re: *Looks over own post*
by Psychopixi on Oct 28, 2002 - 05:12 AM
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*Grinz* Heehee. :)

*Ponders* ...You really like the whole cheek-pinching thing, huh? ;)



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Re: *Looks over own post*
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Nov 02, 2002 - 12:35 AM
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I'm all sorts of down with cheek pinching, man!
I pinch the new kid's cheeks at work *grin* they dont' know what to make of it, it's hillarious.
I call 'em darlin and pinch 'em and they dont' know what to do but say "thanks".
*snicker* I LOOOOVE being management...


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Re: Cut It Out
by DevilBunny (land_of_nod@poczta.onet.pl)
on Oct 16, 2002 - 01:11 PM
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I am going to repeat myself...

"Goth" and/or "gothic" (when NOT dealing with the architectural and writing style) was a term that music journalists in the late 70's/80's used to describe fans of bands such as Siouxsie And The Banshees, U.K. Decay, Joy Division and of that such... Originally those fans never used any special term to call themselves. And so the word "Goth" stuck...

And now this modern-childish "what is Goth", "when are you Goth" shit is just driving me (and I strongly suspect that not only me) quite crazy.

For Christ's sake, "Goth" is just a fucking word...

Just be what you feel that's good for you, no matter what it's called...



Re: Cut It Out
by Mutant_Duckie on Oct 16, 2002 - 07:06 PM
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AMEN!


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Re: Goth Is Not
by Meranda_Jade (Meranda@mymind.com)
on Oct 16, 2002 - 03:20 PM
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I think someone posted this exact question a long time ago in the old forums... the Cult one, I think... anyway, who really cares anymore?


Re: Goth Is Not
by Shade (Shade@Gothcult.com)
on Oct 16, 2002 - 06:01 PM
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Trollbait


Re: Goth Is Not
by Ianthe99 on Oct 16, 2002 - 06:56 PM
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Eh.. don't be so hard on the girl. It's an endless discussion that most of us have had at one time or another, and most of those that come after will have in the future. It's kinda like "What's the meaning of life" but not so important. :P


Re: Goth Is Not
by Merry_Widow on Oct 16, 2002 - 07:55 PM
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Why are so many people worried about what Goth is or isn't? Just do whatever and call it macaroni if it's what you really want.


Had to do it
by Devin (devin-at-vibechild-dot-com)
on Oct 16, 2002 - 10:49 PM
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Sorry everyone, I wasn't sure anyone was still alive out there and reading articles, so I had to approve this one. Just checking your pulse.

*ducks*
-Devin-



Re: Had to do it
by ThatOneWastedChick on Oct 18, 2002 - 04:29 AM
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Devin! I asked you about this post earlier and you said it was fine! Setting me up, eh? -_-;;; Oh well, lol, I don't care really. It's my opinoin and I'm sticking by it. hee hee.
~Mandy~


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Re: Had to do it
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 12:14 AM
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Sucker...you just sittin there with your finger on the button....you love it, admit it.


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Macaroni!
by KatB on Oct 17, 2002 - 01:02 AM
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*applauds Merry Widow 'til my palms bleed*

A little bit of fever, that comment, and I'll have amusement all day!
"Macaronier than though"



Macaronier than THOU
by KatB on Oct 17, 2002 - 01:05 AM
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it should have been!...


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Re: Macaronier than THOU
by Merry_Widow on Oct 18, 2002 - 12:22 PM
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mmmm....macaroni...


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nobody hates goths more than goths
by IamSquid (AAA@sockmonkeys.net)
on Oct 17, 2002 - 02:24 AM
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Why is this even an issue? GOTH IS NOT TRYING!

Personally, "Goth" is an insult my friends and I always accused each of being when someone was being too gloomy and such. To mee, a "goth" was a ridiculous person who takes themselves far too seriously, never smiles, and only opens their mouth to over-dramaticly bitch about something. Of course, this could all be part of what I always used to say: Nobody hates goths more than goths.

Sometimes people call mee "goth" and I understand they need some way of defining mee (yes I'm being "labelled," I know) so they can come up with some excuse for my exsistance. I couldn't really give a shit, anyone who knows mee knows mee for who I am.

Plenty of "goths" have called mee a "poser" which means to mee only two things: jack and shit. Why? Because I live up to MY standards, not anyone else's. I don't want to be "hard core" anything, I just want to be. If people need to define themselves by a stereotype good for them but I feel no such need.



Re: nobody hates goths more than goths
by KatB on Oct 17, 2002 - 02:28 AM
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Next time you tell them you're macaroni.


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Re: nobody hates goths more than goths
by Psychopixi on Oct 17, 2002 - 03:01 AM
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Heh heh, amen to that! My friends and I just take the piss, calling each other 'goff!'. Nothing serious, who cares what people call you, it won't change who you are. It's just another label, another word, you shouldn't let it define all that you are, maybe just describe a small part of you. Any how, who gives a shit really? You can be so 'goff' that eldritch worships you and still be a miserable friendless git, or you could be a complete mush and still be one of my best friends.


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Re: nobody hates goths more than goths
by KatB on Oct 17, 2002 - 03:15 AM
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eldritch hates goffs... won't even use the "G"-word...
even cancelled Switchblade Symphony as support band once, because they were too "G"...
stupid git.

oh well, maybe it's not so strange. guess he's had his share of weird encounters.


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Re: nobody hates goths more than goths
by AloneSoul (AloneSoul@hurting.com) on Oct 18, 2002 - 12:42 AM
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You know, the whole labeling ordeal is taken abit overboard. If you don't want to be called "goth" then take up a different lifestyle. As they say, can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

See, you know who you are, I know who I am and not ANY other person's label will change me. Those of us who choose to have a different appearance will be labeled, like "punks", "preps", "ravers" etc. Is it annoying to me? No. I really care less. Maybe we all should too. It may take off alittle stress from your day.

Now, wanna know something which pisses me off about the "media's" labeling system? They had the gall to say that the two shooters from Columbine were "goths." Why? They wore black trench coats.

*sighs* Idiotic labeling systems always work best when the man-made weathe...er, news casting system saturates us with mislead or uneducated information.


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Re: nobody hates goths more than goths
by IamSquid (AAA@sockmonkeys.net) on Oct 18, 2002 - 09:55 AM
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My point was that others may label mee "goth" and I don't care. I'm not going to put effort into being "goth." If I appear "goth" to people they can call mee it, if I don't appear "goth" to them they can call mee some other label. Either way I'm mee not a stereotype.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by DarkMistress on Oct 17, 2002 - 08:50 AM
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people here quit on the "omg she's goth" comments, well they don't say anything to my face. There's been a change people, I am now officially one of "those kids." Yay! Something new and differen't for me!



SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by MorteAscendo (corpsmanwix@aol.com) on Oct 17, 2002 - 11:58 PM
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Holy shit..ok, I vote that we start something new, it seems now that this goth discussion is gotten way out of hand, so lets start a new genre, doesnt have a name yet, but i say we all think happy thoughts, where really tight tights, sing happy songs like, sweater or buddy holly by Weaser. Pink or bright purple should be the main colors and we can hold hands over a camp fire. Now doesnt that sound nice.

So please, define that.

Thank you, your friendly neighborhood psychotic Sailor,

_Mort


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by ThatOneWastedChick on Oct 18, 2002 - 04:38 AM
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I say we all dress up like elves and go about helping people only at night! ....erm...wait.... Thats already been done by the Brownies (the pixie fairy troll thing not the girl scout troop). But what the hell? I'm sure this hasn't been done for a couple hundred years. Why not start it up again? Or would we still be called posers? Eh, who cares anymore?


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 12:17 AM
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I am sooo lost. Did I miss something?


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by DarkMistress on Oct 19, 2002 - 11:37 AM
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They're suggesting we take up a new lifestyle.
Are you a fan of pastels? How about light pink? Yes, I think that's your color.


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 05:11 PM
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Either I've got a wad of cold virus and boogers cloggin my brain, or I"m still lost.....
Who's suggesting, and as for pastels, I don't mind them on my underoos if they're cheap...and I look disgustingly adorable in pink...which is why I never wear it *grin*
I'll stick to the black spiderweb uderwear we got in at work yesterday....Oooo payday still a week away *sigh*.
You don't have to explain what's going on if you don't wanna...I'm sure if I read over things carefully when I"m not all stupid and sick I'll get it eventually :P


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by MorteAscendo (corpsmanwix@aol.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 05:42 PM
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I am (like others) sick of this what is goth bullshit. half the people that come here arent even. So i was just suggesting that we start a new "FAD". Tis all Bettie....heh...didnt meen to confuse you.


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by DarkMistress on Oct 19, 2002 - 06:22 PM
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I think I'd like to see you in a pink pastel, Morte. *snickers*
Monday I'm going to go to school in pj pants with black and red striped tights underneath, a big bulky blue sweater with armwarmers and my hair all fucked up. No one wants to copy someone who *isnt* stylish..


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by MorteAscendo (corpsmanwix@aol.com) on Oct 20, 2002 - 04:00 PM
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You gotta take a picture and post it...or atleast send it to me...that would be so tits.


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by DarkMistress on Oct 21, 2002 - 02:02 PM
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if your lucky, and if the lens doesn't break from my horrible lack of fashion sense.


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by ThatOneWastedChick on Oct 21, 2002 - 02:59 PM
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Send me a copy of it too hon! Thanks! ^_~


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Re: SOMETHING NEW!!!!
by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Oct 21, 2002 - 03:39 PM
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if you include lime green and plaids then you have the still inadequately named group for happy straight edge punks from SF. Danke Shoen was thier favorite song to sing (that i remember). OH and 99 red ballons was another big hit sung in high pitched (mostly females) voices over flaming trash bins in the park after a hard day of spanging.

Sorry its been done.....


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Re: Goth Is Not
by ThatOneWastedChick on Oct 18, 2002 - 04:57 AM
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Hmmm... how to explain this... First let me start by saying I'm not telling you this is the way it has to be. It was merely a suggestion for those of you that DO try to define goth. And when I say goth I mean the subculture and not the nomadic tribes or whatever they used to be and I deffinatley do not mean the style of those old churches with their fancy flying buttresses and what not. As for the idea of calling it macaroni, that's not a bad idea either. :)
Now, that I've said that, I should probably ask a few more questions, first off, those of you that were freaking out because I tried defining it, you said you didn't even try anymore, so if you don't do that then why do you get upset when someone else does. If you no longer care then why does it matter that someone still does?
And notice I said don't drop all your ideas of what goth is. I still have mine. The enitre reason I said define goth by what it isn't is so that when you told someone you think your giant collection of stuffed pink and rainbow bunny rabbits was as goth as fuck they couldn't call you a poser (because, while some of you may have become immune to it a lot of us are still somewhat sore about being called that) because what Goth isn't well almost always stay the same until maybe another genoration rises up and changes everything.
Someone commented that the way of some of you guys are treating this it's like it was a curse, or an insult, "the Black Death" even. :) Here's a little news for you, why should it matter? Why does it matter so much when someone comes along tries to figure out this Goth thing is or isn't all about? It's just the way they feel. And who know's their opinoin could change. I'm fairly certain mine will. Just calm down.
And just for the record, I never accused anyone of being goth or not. I never said this was set in stone and had to be that way. It was only an idea. I'm also quite aware that Gothic used to be an architectural (sp? I'm not using MS Word for this I am typing it freehand so sorry for the mistakes) type and the Goth's also used to be an ancient tribe of people. Thank you for your time.
\m/ Mandy



Re: Goth Is Not
by Ianthe99 on Oct 18, 2002 - 11:21 AM
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Yay! you go girl. No offence guys.. but I think it's silly to get your little black knickers in a wad over it. I'm not much help tho. I cant really say what goth is or isnt for anyone but myself.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by Ianthe99 on Oct 18, 2002 - 11:22 AM
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"I think it's silly to get your little black knickers in a wad over it"
*It* meaning the act of someone trying to define goth.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by DarkMistress on Oct 18, 2002 - 01:02 PM
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conflict makes the world go 'round. Just remember Sindel's story about labels. You can't stop someone from labeling you and I don't see a problem with labeling yourself. People need to categorize so pick a category you're content with and shut up. You can't tell me you don't categorize yourself either, because calling yourself..Wiccan is putting yourself into a category. Hell, saying you're NOTHING is still categorizing yourself. Er..and by "you" I'm talking about people in general.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 12:23 AM
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First off, whether it's a WIG (what is goth) or a WGI (what goth ISN'T) it will ALWAYS get everyone to spill and theorize and sometimes, get pissy.
People will take something and do with it what they will...don't let it bother you.
Even if devin did "set you up" *ducks* he did it because you seem to have a knack for stirring things up...and I don't mean that in a bad way.
Better than being boring, huh? I'd rather start a fight than have nothing on my mind or be too afraid to speak up once in a while.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by DarkMistress on Oct 19, 2002 - 11:39 AM
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It's like the religious debate. My god can kick your god's ass any day.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 05:12 PM
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VERY true...that's why I like satan...I don't care who kicks who's ass, because you can bet the "post ass kicking/kicked" party is ALWAYS at the devil's pad. :D


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Re: Goth Is Not
by ThatOneWastedChick on Oct 19, 2002 - 12:41 PM
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Good point. Thanks Bettie. :)


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Re: Goth Is Not
by bettie_x (strangersangel@hotmail.com) on Oct 19, 2002 - 05:16 PM
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I like to think it was :) And it's like art....even if people HATE it, are REUPLSED by it, PROTEST it...it got them thinking, acting, feeling and served a VERY important purpose...which could have been the intent of the artist all along. Tricky tricky *grin*
I mean hell, look at comedian, he's good at being an asshole *ducks* and rarely fails to bunch underwear in mass quantities.
Like devin said, got to make sure there's a pulse :)
And even tho it's redundant (the whole dead horse WIG bit, I mean) it was still important enough to YOU to put it up. Stick to your guns baby and you can't be sorry.


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Re: Goth Is Not
by AlteredMind on Nov 27, 2002 - 08:04 AM
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You're right ...goth is many things.....what about the term poser that has been applied to people who seem to "switch lifestyles" a lot............POSER is a term that should not be applied to people.Hell if you wanna be Punk...be punk........if you wanna be Goth.............be goth...........if you wanna switch next week.......do it..........I'd rather stay the way i am ..........I really don't like change.......but trying to define goth as one way is immpossible...........It doesn't mean you have to wear black 24/7 or black lipstick & nail polish........Goth is a stereotype (ie; a simple way to charachterize people) everyone fits in to some stereotype.........Get in where you fit in.....and fuck all those haters.............


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