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Fiction: Toy Dolls 10
Posted by Shade on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 12:04 AM PST

Entertainment
"What is going on here?" I stared at Bettie, the dismay and confusion must have been obvious on my face, but she opted to take a much simpler approach. "Quite simply, we're trying to make the world a better place for everyone who lives on it, and have as much fun as possible while doing so."

"You know that's not what I mean." I snarled. I was a trapped and wounded animal in a cage. Savage Dreamer's face still swam in front of my eyes, illuminated by a solitary moonbeam, vulnerable and needing just a few moments of solace from the stranger who instead walked out her door. Superimposed over that was my memory of our messages and e-mails, all the support she gave me while I was trying to find something hidden deep within myself. I remembered her face as I had seen it at the diner, and now I could remember her expressions clearly, hope, fear, and just momentarily, crestfallen regret as she realized that I did not recognize her from our shared past. Then in the blink of an eye her face had rearranged itself into the most welcoming smile I had ever seen, and I had fallen into her eyes like a dying man in the desert going for water. Now, I was suspicious.

Bettie just looked at me, her expression unreadable and her eyes hooded. I lit a cigarette and tried to stare her down, but I broke first. "I met Dream a couple of years ago, we met, had sex, it meant something to her-" I paused and let myself remember the way I had felt the next morning, alone in my bed. "It meant something to both of us, but I walked out when we were done and never spoke to her again. I thought she was like the rest of the women I had slept with, in it for the sex. And then, when it was all over, when it was just down to wet spots and bandages, she asked me to stay. I got scared and ran, but the next morning I knew what she had been talking about. I didn't even know her name and I missed her. I had no idea what to do about it so I pushed everything about the encounter deep into the pits of my mind and forgot about her, it, us, everything about the night until just a minute ago when you poked me. So I'm asking again. Is this, all of this some elaborate scheme to get even with me?" I waved my hands through the smoke filled air and encompassed the club and everyone in it with my quick angry gesture.

Bettie just gave me that "do you really mean that?" look that only people who ask ridiculous questions get.

"OK, maybe not the whole club, but are you guys all in on this? Is it some revenge thing?" Inspiration dawned. "Is it some kind of plot to get me back?" I dragged on my cigarette and scowled at the filter. Now I was back to confusion.

"Xeno," She sighed. "This is not some intricate plot to get you back, it's not some intensely involved revenge plot, and for your information, I'm offended that you would think I would involve myself in something so petty."

"Dream was required to disclose any past involvement with you before her recommendation that you be invited was accepted. Devon decided that your past involvement was acceptable, and I was told because there was a very good chance that at this point in the process, you would remember her. What you did is not some crime we're holding against you, it's just your past. We all have one. I left enough bleeding hearts behind in my life that when I got to this point, I seriously freaked out. I thought I was in the clutches of some creepy revenge cult and they were going to sacrifice me on the altar of some vengeance god. Thankfully, you can see I'm alive and well, and no one is sacrificing anyone. That's not to say I wouldn't love to get my hands on one of those cool daggers all the Hollywood cults seem to find in the cornfield or wherever they get them, but that's just because I like knives." Her smile was a pun waiting to happen, I let it pass and asked another question.

"So, if this isn't some kind of plot; what am I supposed to do about my past with Dream?"

"Whatever seems right to you. If you want to be mature about it, try whatever seems right to both of you; once you've asked her." Bettie flagged down the shadows and a waiter appeared and brought us two ginger ales. I scowled at mine, but it didn't turn into real ale. Bettie said a clear head would be better for this discussion than the alternative. And coffee, she said would make us both too jittery to concentrate. She went on.

"You need to understand something Xeno; we're not here to make you do anything. We're here for our own edification. We invited you to join us because after listening to the things Dream told us about you, and after meeting with you in the first two days of your invitation; you seem to be the type of person who would add to our family. I know a lot of the words I'm using sound cultish and conspiracy, but that's because cults draw the language of their initiation from a long history of learning the words that work. We on the other hand say them for the reasons that make them work. We mean them. You are, so far, a welcome addition to our family and to the club in general."

"But what about Dream?" I interjected.


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Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Arthegarn on Jul 15, 2003 - 08:00 AM
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Wonderful, Shade, as always. I really enjoy reading your work, and it makes me think.

It makes me think and wonder what would RG have to say about that theory that theory that "A lot of people that aren't in the scene can get there (the sub-space) but they need a non-entity to follow, a god (...)". And I wonder what would RG have to say about it because I don't know what to say myself.

As everyone around, I guess, I have wondered what am I (if anything at all): a master or a slave.

Being a slave is extremely attractive to me: perhaps I am too self conscious in my daily life, too tired of carefully balancing the consequences of my actions, too tired of trying to avoid sin, too tired of, in two words, being responsible that the idea of having someone who will make all decisions for me and free me of that burden sounds so well, so relaxing... All I have to do is obey, that's all that is requested from me and I will be fulfilled. No more thinking, no more doubt, no more soul search. Just obey and get your piece of candy.

But then there is that part of my personality I want to run from: I AM the leader, I AM the one who makes difficult decisions. And not only that there is also this… surge inside me that makes me act when someone else is being hurt… I don’t think I would be able to stand in my knees while someone else was being hurt. And I like so much to pamper, caress and nurture others I feel weaker than I am… I haven’t slept (made love) with many people, but all of them tell me I am addictive because I make them feel important, feel sure and valuable, special and loved…

So, OK, I have to accept (at least for the moment) that dual nature. But when I turn to my religious self I find that I am totally a slave as Bettie describes. Perhaps that’s not the correct way to put it, I mean that I have entered many times that sub-space, that I know what’s it like. O, and I like it. When you are in a state that can not be descried any way other than ecstasy, when you feel God’s love around you and you know that no evil can happen to you, that God has a plan and is there to care for you, that even if you suffer and don’t understand God’s path you just know S/he can do no wrong. That’s just slave sub-space what I call religious ecstasy. It brings a sense of perfect peace, perfect harmony with the Universe, everything has a sense, you just love and are loved.

Understand me well, I am not losing my faith by this. I believe faith is choosing what to believe and I choose to believe there is more than just a quasi-hypnotic state in the answers that I get to my prayers. But for the first time I feel Ockham’s razor against my neck and it makes me wonder…

But perhaps it’s the other way around. Perhaps that sub-space is just the consequence of faith. Perhaps it is the slave who has a faith in his Master similar to the one I have in God. Perhaps it’s not me running away from life and responsibility and looking for a cheap release in religion… Perhaps its them running away from God but feeling they lack something and finding a substitute in that SM relationship...

I love being alive and finding the beauty in questions with no answer.

Arthegarn



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com)
on Jul 15, 2003 - 11:40 AM
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Arthegarn, you have no idea how much respect and honor I give you for your courage and honesty in saying what you just have, especially given the poor reception Christianity tends to get here.  I'm sure that all who know you will echo my respect.

And you are so right about the master/slave relationship between the Creator and the created that parallels the sexual relationships described in this story.  You and I have both experienced that sub-space and its release.  Even now that I have abandoned the rituals and terminology that accompany the modern form of Christianity, still I feel the same bond with the One I serve.

I do believe that there are those who find in a master/slave relationship that something that they miss from their natural place as a created being submitted to a Creator.  But yet, I also think that not all who call themselves "God's servants" truly submit, and many who abhor the very thought of serving a God may in fact be serving him instinctually.  And perhaps they find their own natural sub-space in that instinctual service.

This is why I am leary of proselytizing, even if I claimed a religion to recruit followers too.  I am afraid of distracting someone from instinctual service by making them think they have to do it a certain other way.  And I have too much respect for those who do so, and realize that they in fact have perhaps more to teach me than I think I have to teach them.

And anyone here who gets their panties in a wad because they think Arthegarn is trying to convert them and call them hell-bound sinners needs to go soak their heads, because they don't know him AT ALL!!  Never has a Christian on this site tried to lay down their views as indisputable facts half as strongly as atheists do every day.  It's easy for you, because your views are popular.  You should all bow your heads in awe of the incredible bravery it takes for someone like Arthegarn to even hint the way he did of an opposite view.



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Anya (Enternamehere@enterhosthere.net)
on Jul 15, 2003 - 01:48 PM
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*claps* Bravo.  Would say more, but already telling you my feelings in msn about your post. :)


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Shade (Shade@Gothcult.com)
on Jul 16, 2003 - 10:41 AM
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Arth, and all who are affected by these burning questions.

I cannot and will not attempt to define anyone's faith for them. I am not clergy, I'm not your master. And although I might debate this on a different thread, I'm not your god. What I will address is the nature of duality, my interpretations on sub-space and religion, and why I , the one who will argue the most vehemently against organized religion will still say supportive things about specific religious people. Such as Arthegarn and Shizo.

First I want to address the duality that many people see in the master slave dynamic. I want to stress that this is not an either/or proposition. Just as Bettie is Xeno's Mistress, she has been someone else's slave if you read back a bit. She is what's often refered to as a "switch" she enjoys both the top and the bottom of the totem pole. There aer people out there who also fill every sector of the spectrum. Self defined straight men who will only ever sleep with women in missionary position, and who claim to enjoy the hell out of the act, but who also feel the need to suborn themselves to a man sometimes, bisexuals who are tops with one and bottoms with the other sex, gay men and women who will sleep with the other sex only when it is part of a power play, and like I said, every span of the spectrum. Life is not binary, there is no either/or, not even in this rather stark definition. I will freely admit that there are some people for whom the whole question of "elternative sexuality" can be answered with a simple "no". for some this is totally true, for others this is because they have never asked themselves the question.

And that leads me to my next topic. In Bettie's words "They reach out and give their trust blindly to an ideal so that no human can hurt them." The they I am talking about are people who blindly follow a leader or a god with no concept of what they are following. A slave has to, at some point think about what they are doing, because their master is giving them commands on a regular basis. An educated and self examined follower of any religion has gone through a process in which they have examined their life, and the life their religion will require of them. They have made an informed decision based on the fact that they believe in (note the "in", it's a very important word) the teachings and guidance their religion can give them. I'm not speaking for everyone who has made an informed decision, but those people who I have met tend to follow a different path than the ones who just do whatever their preacher reads out of the book. The informed individual who has chosen religion to guide their day to day life makes choices based on the same religion. But they make those choices, they did not say "I will be xian" and then give up all impetus in their lives.

I honestly believe the joy you gain from your communion with your god is very much the same as the joy a sub gains in sub-space. You feel cared for and nurtured and like your soul is being fed. But you also draw a line between your personal god and the "god of millions" who has apparently banned everything from sex to breathing at one time or another. (Don't believe me about the breathing part? He enforced that particular law by covering his version of the earth with water folks. *End rant*) I don't think there has to be a seperation between these two joys. If you need, for whatever purpose to feel they are not one and the same, I would say they are a complimentary place in your heart that does not in any way cheapen the love you feel for the other source of sub-space.

I'd like to come back to the nature of duality for a moment. I owe a major part of my opinions on this subject to Callei's love and help while I was feeling my way out of an x-ian built paper bag here. Duality only exists if you insist on it. Good can only exist if there is evil, but beauty, joy, help, caring, these things all exist

Read the rest of this comment...



Just joking
by Arthegarn on Jul 16, 2003 - 10:41 AM
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It was me who wouldn't mind the jokes. I can even carry on.

Well... let's say so many (so-called) christians are that bad in bed because so many people are that bad... Well... I heard... I was told by... Amm...

If you ask my opinion Christianism wants you to perform adequately in bed: you have to care for your brother... er... neighbour... er... well, whatever. My point is you derive pleasure from that person's pleasure. To me, it's almost like an addiction, I prefer it that way. I just can't have an orgasm until she has had it (um...)

As for Christians' sex energy being spent somewhere else... Well let's say that, from my experience, (am... I mean... I talk to many people and... oh, blast it!) what Rufus tells Jay in "Dogma" was plain hyperbolic unless Jay is a Christian... (If any of you don't know what am I talking about, go get Kevin Smiths's "Dogma" from your local Blockbuster)


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Devin (devin-at-vibechild-dot-com)
on Jul 16, 2003 - 10:53 AM
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Please don't click "Reply to this" on any comment under this article.  Something is broken (badly) and I'm working on fixing it, but until I get it fixed, please use the "Post comment" button.


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com)
on Jul 16, 2003 - 04:41 PM
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Oh Callei, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean you!  I know you show great respect and friendship for me and Arthegarn, in spite of your distaste for our religion.  I don't know, I guess I was just bracing myself for rats to come out of the woodwork and start flinging shmeng with closed eyes, just because they heard the word "God" or a suggestion that someone might actually think that God was a necessary element in human's life.  And I got kind of snappish at the very thought of someone doing that.  So many people are so conditioned to attack at the first hint of Christianity, and some, but by no means all, have reason to in their experience.  I just wanted people to know that they're not dealing with a hate-mongering bigot here, and that there were people ready to defend him if needed.

But I never meant you.  No matter how you have been harmed by those who carry the name of Christianity and make it abhorrant, you have the grace and open-mindedness to judge by the person, and not by the name their belief carries.  And my respect for you and your rare abilities easily equal the respect I hold for Arthegarn and his grace in proposing unpopular ways of thought.

And Arthegarn, you are brave, because you know the sort of unpleasantness that can occur from an open airing of a view like yours, and you don't at all let it hinder you in the true expression of your thoughts.  It would be very easy to censor, but you don't.  And I'm sorry if I aided in the unpleasantness by playing guard dog.  Blame it on the mother hormones acting up.  Don't nobody better touch MY people, nohow!


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com)
on Jul 16, 2003 - 05:13 PM
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Oh, and I guess "opposite" was an ill-chosen word.  Or rather, a word chosen with other people in mind, people who truly see Arthegarn's way as opposite to their own.  I myself don't tend to draw lines based on religion.  I find myself on parallel paths with anyone with a genuine yearning for the discovery of truth.  Whether they call themselves Christian, Pagan, Atheist, or what you will.

It is kind of funny how some who claim to reject religion, particularly Christianity, actually hold just as tightly to the duality inherant in the belief.  Christianity is made to be the one true evil so often.  Basically, they say the same thing as the worst of the worst Christians - "because you do not believe as I do, you are evil, and deserving of destruction.  At the very least, get out of my sight before you make me sick."

Sometimes I think that the mark of a person who really has their head and heart straight is the search for the good of someone/something rather than the evil.  To find the kinship rather than the severance.  After all, isn't that part of what goth is all about?  To find the good, the beautiful, the valuable in things thrown away and rejected by others?  Like the creepy animals, the scary places and times, the less comfortable practices and the sadder moods?

Perhaps the proper duality isn't good vs. evil, it isn't a vs. at all.  It's beauty plus truth.  Find what you can beautiful about anything, and when you really can't, and where beauty is blocked or misguided, find the truth so it can be released once again.  The two go hand in hand, finding what is worth keeping, and identifying what isn't, so it can be cared for, and either restored or replaced.

I was so quick to pre-act (rather than react) to a "vs." response, that I nearly forgot that the true Shmenglings are far more prone to a "plus" response.  We do not oppose where we find differences, we learn.  One member's search for truth and beauty, while coming from one direction, enlightens another's search from the other direction.  This is the way it ought to be.

Perhaps it is a symptom of the previous version of Shmeng, where so many little minds searching for nothing but echoes of themselves, were so rampant.  I was afraid of them and already angry.  Are they really weeded out already?  Or is that still in process?


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Anonymous-Coward on Jul 16, 2003 - 05:39 PM
Tho I am loath to admit it, I fear the people that lable themselves Christian. I dont like to admit the fear that they inspire. I have trouble thinking of you or Arth as "Christian" because you are nothing like what that word means to me (and so many others).
I also have to admit that i was alllll poise to attack any one stupid enough to say Arth was "bad", "wrong", "stupid", whatever. He is my favorite Catholic after all, and someday i hope to mooch crash space on his floor. (wink).

And as you say, so many people are "trained" to attack; they follow some "rule" unthinkingly and blindly. And that is wrong. I think we are mostly free of those people here, in the articles. If we have any (i am being hopefull here) they hide in the forums.
And Arth, you are brave. You may not have know it, but to pair sex and god is well, blasphemous in America. To say that sex could be a transforming experiece that in any way compares to religious rapture is blasphemous. And to wonder aloud if sex is the same as intimacy (which is what is actually shared in a power exchance relationship) is the same as religious bliss would get you stoned to death in most towns and cities here. 
I want to be really clear about something else. I am not your friends, like you, or respect you, DISPITE your "religion". I like you, respect, you and accept you as you are. Not as how i think you should be, think you will be someday, or who you were in the past. Just as you are, that tall, that hair color, that taste in music, that favorite food, even (gawds help me) that boyfriend. Your religion plays no part in my regard; I do not ignore it, i do not reject it, i do not fear it, nor do i love it, cater to it, or worry about it, any more than i do your hair color.
Shiz thanks for making it clear that a 14.8 style response on this comment would be met with the full force of the old guard of shmeng.  You rock.


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by callei on Jul 16, 2003 - 06:23 PM
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wow, it let me post annon! bet devin is messing with the server again...


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Squire-of-Gothos (Brian0049@hotmail.com)
on Jul 17, 2003 - 08:52 PM
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I think Arthegarn was very right in what he said, but mixing god and sexuality doesn't seem so far fetched to me. The creation, the battles and fueds, the anger and revenge, these are all things that sex brings us, and they are all themes of the bible. Religion captures all themes of life, and the greatest theme in life, it seems, is life itself. Maybe I'm just totally wrong, or talking out my ass, but when I read the Bible it speaks very closely to the issues of every day life, just blown up to extremes, so it can prove a point. I read the stories and it has sybolism in it we can find in friendship, love, loss, and even sex. The problem, if it necessarily is one, is that christianity has been sort of altered by the people who practice it. Some at least. Those who take one story, one verse, and turn it into an infalible truth, are not really looking at the bigger picture. The bible also seems to be used as a floodvalve to release anger and prejudice by some people.

Dont like gays? Well, god sorta says they're bad, kinda, so its ok to hate them! The bible says its kosher! (pun sort of intended)

God thinks sex out of wedlock is not so great. So hey, freak your kids out about sex, while not really teaching them about it, and pray they actually get scared out of doing it. "How do you put on a condom, Dad?" "It doesn't matter son, you'll never need one!"

Spilling seed=evil! So freak youre kids out about masturbation, too! Keep that sexual frustration bottled up, and make them ashamed of the urges they have!
To hell with the notion that the bible was written in a time period where these things where considered weird and evil and spooky, becuase people didn't understand there own sexuality, and making babies was great!

Don't get me wrong, these are fringe situations, but real ones none the less, and it happens more and more each day. Most Christians, ones I know at least, never grew up in a hostile and controling enviroment like that, but some did, and to me it doesn't seem right. The blowing out of proportion of the bible, and nailing it into your kids. let them decide what to do when they grow up, just worry about teaching them human standards of behaviour, etiquit and control, not the Bible's.

Sex was so private and undiscussed, speaking directly about it would have freaked anyone who read the bible out at first, so the symbolism was masked and transmuted, but the message still got across. At least, thats how I see it. Maybe I'm wrong....



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Psychopixi (psyche.at.psychopixi.dot.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 04:50 AM
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Despite reading Shade's comments on other articles, and seeing that he knows his stuff I never actually read any of this story before. I think I joined Shmeng after the first chapter was posted and never took it upon myself to read from the beginning. Yeah, I was stupid. I read all ten chapters last night, I won't tell you how late I was up till because I couldn't put the laptop down! I am in love with the story, the characters and most of all, the club. I'm hoping against all hope that some righteous angel (or just a really friendly mansion owner) will decide to create one of them near me. This writing is better than some of things I've seen published, and when I finished the last page on the tenth chapter, bringing myself back to reality hurt.

If anyone else reading this has not yet read this story from the beginning, go and do it now, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't. 


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by callei on Jul 18, 2003 - 05:23 AM
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Squire" Don't get me wrong, these are fringe situations, but real ones none the less, and it happens more and more each day. Most Christians, ones I know at least, never grew up in a hostile and controling enviroment like that, but some did, and to me it doesn't seem right."

1) the laws of the land say that there is something called pre-marriatal sex and that it is something for which you can go to jail, be fined large amounts of money, and carry a negative mark on your "permenant record" for having. If you grew up in this country, you grew up knowing sex outside of marriage was "wrong" and "illegal" and "bad". That these laws are often overlooked these days doesnt change that FACT that people do still get charged with them (see the sodomy laws threads and articles here) everyday.

2) there are special laws that prohibit sex between people of the same sex. It has only been not illegal for less than a month for two or more consenting adults of the same sex to have sex. of any kind. It is still not legal, just not illegal.

In a BDSM relationship, the top often (usually) controls the sex of the bottom, so your comments are very supportive that your god is your "master" and that you will only have sex with his permission and at his bidding. ( i am using the general you here). The fact that you think this is normal is one of the things that everyone else on the planet that isnt part of the "there is one god and he is my master" crowd rails against.

This is one of the base reasons that we scoff at the statements of free will that xians make. How can you have free will when you are being controled? The easiest and most complete ways to control or break a person are thru sex, sleep, and food (in no particular order). so a god that goes out of thier way to control your sex is a very controlling god. Couple that with the xian (and arth please understand that i am NOT refering to Catholics here, but american protestants) degradation of the love of learning, and you get some serious mind control going on.

Back from my "why xianianity is a bad thing(tm) rant, the fact that you (the personal you squire) can cite so easily the things that you god has said making sex something that you cant have, the fact that you so easily dismiss the incredible damage that being mind-controled like this from birth, the fact that you can then identify with your god all speak more of that syndrom that kidnapees get where thier start to like/identify with thier kidnappers, rather to any real truth that one book says.
Especially as that book doesnt talk about the joys of raising children, how much fun sex is, how wonder it is to eat something tastey, the joys of clean sheets, how nice it is to lay in the arms of your loved ones, or any of a miriade of real life joys. It does however often talk about killing everyone, rape, incest, mass violence and how your god is a fickle one.
I get more out of a dilbert book. at least that lets me laugh.



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Squire-of-Gothos (Brian0049@hotmail.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 09:19 AM
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Oh, but you misunderstand me. I have read the Bible, yes. And I can see the symbolism in it. But I am in no way a practicing Christian, or a practicing anything for that matter. Personally, I don’t like to put my life and faith in the hands of someone who doesn’t have any real affect on my life. Who is he, or anyone for that matter, to judge? Infallible or not, I am my own person, and I don’t believe that anyone has a right to judge me, or tell me what my moral limits are.

People fear their freedom. To have book filled with all that is right, and all that is wrong is a very tempting and intriguing thing. Arth said it, and Xeno said it. The idea of all the daily BS being taken care of by someone else, and having that person tell everything that is ok and not ok, is a comforting thing to many. It’s the safety and simplicity of child hood: Your parents tell you all the rules, you can follow them, and the world is just a playpen. Not a terrible world of death and hatred and destruction. A safe place.

I would much rather live in a society, and practice a system where I am told to find myself, and discover the truths within me. I realize now that I lean into the world of eastern religions, and some Native American beliefs, but damn it, it’s a better system. Not perfect but better. Of course I don’t necessarily like to live in any type of system. I’m a wandering soul, and to be put in shackles by a dated book, full of inconsistencies, written by other people, with other motives (pardon me for this) is fucking stupid. It’s all about what’s in you.



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Squire-of-Gothos (Brian0049@hotmail.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 09:29 AM
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Also, keep in mind that the laws that state that homosexual sex is wrong and immoral are generally created because politics and religion are often joined at the hip. Lewd and lasivious behaviour, under aged sex, (in some places, uninforced) certain positions, and (until recently) sodomy are illegal, yes. But I'm curious what country you live in, because in America, and in many other countries, sex between consenting people of the legal age out of wedlock is not a crime. Yes in Iran and Iraq and in many other places where religion is law, sex out of wedlock is a sin and crime, but not here.



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Shade (Shade@Gothcult.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 10:15 AM
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Umm, go to the library, ask for the law section, look up "adultry", or "extramarital". Welcome to America... Adultry is illegal. It is grounds for a divorce, in some states it can still be punished by a fine of $250 dollars and up to three months in prison. Folks check your assertions before you try to argue these things. You will only end up looking like an idiot if you try and debate a point based purely on heresay and what you "think" is a fact. Here, in the United States of Hell, sex that is not in the missionary position, with the intent of procreation, and withing the bounds of legal marriage is still not legal. Masturbation is not a right under the constitution, nor is it legal in some states. Wake up and smell the facism.


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Squire-of-Gothos (Brian0049@hotmail.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 10:40 AM
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I believe adultery and outside of wedlock is two deferent things. I mean before marriage, not while married. I am aware of the penalties for having sex with someone other than your wife. What I'm talking about is prior to marriage. Ther is no need to infer stupidity.


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Squire-of-Gothos (Brian0049@hotmail.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 10:43 AM
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and for that matter, to hell with legality. I was orignally arguing the moral issues of sex and religion, and if dated rules pertaining to sex are really that troublesome, we the people have a right to piss and moan to our legislative body, and wait while the issue is dead locked in courts and the judicial BS. Its called the American system.


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Shade (Shade@Gothcult.com)
on Jul 18, 2003 - 11:25 AM
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I'll grant you that pre-marital sex is not illegal, however, in the US it is used as a reason not to hire, it is used as a reason to fire, in the case of Brady against the Sacred Heart University, it was used as the basis for removing the student from both her team, and her school. I have seen and heard of people being removed from public high schools because they became pregnant (Proof of premarital sex) and consenting adults can be fired for engagin in sexual acts, in the privay of their own homes, if they are not married because it is against the rules of their corporation. The fact that the rules exist, and are enforced is the most frightening, because the corporation is the bottom of the legal ladder these days. If the corporation can get away with it, and it follows the religious party line, then it's often slipped into the waiting line to be signed into law.

On the issue of religion and sexuality, quite honestly, the people who want to run their morality purely on the basis of religion, generally aren't allowed to have sexuality. Not by western standards anyway. I believe you were saying the same thing on that subject.



Re: Toy Dolls 10
by firefly7 on Jul 19, 2003 - 09:02 PM
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Amazing chapter, *claps* well done!


To Devin
by Arthegarn on Jul 20, 2003 - 03:32 AM
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O mighty You, the One, the Divine, I know I am not supposed to pray for specific things but this thread is beginning to get difficult to follow. O mighty You, the One, the Divine, I beg you, see to it that we can "reply to this" before we loss our path in the labyrinth of nestedlessness


To Shade (the most clueless post ever written)
by Arthegarn on Jul 20, 2003 - 04:20 AM
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I see your point but there is something about the nature of faith that has too much to do with blindly following a leader as t be dismissed that easily.

If I get your meaning you are saying that educated followers of a religion have made a conscious choice and that it is by that choice that they believe what they believe. Yes and no. I didn’t make a choice to believe in God. I just do. To Catholics faith is a gift, something that descends from Heaven and that is offered to all of us just like life is another gift. You do not “choose” to have faith, you have it. What you can do is choosing not to have it, to me it is lack of faith and disbelief what requires a previous conscious choice. It’s hard to explain but it’s as if I thought that the natural state of human beings is faith, and not disbelief. The Universe is all made up so we can naturally derive the existence of a creator, it is the natural instinct, the First Immobile Motor, the Cause of all Causes.... I think it’s taken mankind 10,000 years to get to be so arrogant as to disbelieve its own creator, to tergiversate the nature of existence so much as to be able to satisfy their own Pride by saying there is nothing inherently superior to mankind, nothing to follow and give thanks to; 10,000 years to get rid of a focal point in human morality that says that you owe it to God to act a certain way, and by disbelieving God’s existence thus reach the ultimate moral freedom to do what they want. Some people say it’s brave to accept there is no God and existence ends with Death, I say it’s far easier to live with that delusion if it brings in hand that no one is going to ask you about what did you do with your life when you die, and thus you can abuse it all you want.

But back to the story, my point is I didn’t make any conscious decision as to have faith or not. I took several conscious decisions as to the, let’s say, external manifestation of that faith, of the specific issues I believed in, comparatively small things that guide me through everyday life. But the fact is I blindly believe in God and that I just can’t conceive existence, my life, without God. And the question is: is it really the way I have said before as it just that it is much easier to me to define myself as one who believes and so not question not really the existence of God? I have an experience of God, but is that real or just an hypnotic-induced half-dream slave sub-space?

What I mean is I never considered my slave condition, if it is such. I’m a lawyer by vocation and I like to play the devil’s advocate with me (I also find it’s the only way to grow): a slave I was and a slave I will be because that’s what I want to be, because I find it natural to have a Master.

As for other issues... Well, let’s say I tend to look at the Bible with a little more knowledge and much less interest in making it a tool of mass control than your average preacher seems to do (NOTE: I am just recently getting winds of how “Xians” are in the US, they didn’t understand a word of it). There are symbols, there are legends and tales and metaphors. It’s not to be read as a history book because it is not that and because the Jew didn’t write it like that. God is not a God of millions, God is God. The church is the one of millions, be it my One, Saint, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman church or the First Church of Springfield. Churches is made out of men and women with good or evil intention, saint and sinner.

And I don’t agree with the statement that Good can only exit with Evil. Good just happens, it’s like positive and negative numbers. One, two, three, these are all there, they just happen. But minus one, minus two... these are products of our genius, they need of positive numbers plus the intervention of our minds to imagine them. Good is as beauty, it is what happens when there is no evil. Don’t let anyone

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Re: Toy Dolls 10
by Schizo (Aranea@spidersdance.com)
on Jul 20, 2003 - 04:50 AM
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Actually, Callei, the Bible does talk about the joys of sex (ever read the Song of Solomon?  Lovely little bit of erotica written in an early Hebrew poetic form), and the joys of raising children ("children are a gift from the Lord," etc., many verses of the sort), and in praise of good food and stuff.  Largely ignored by the Doom and Hellfire variety of Christians, who concentrate on finding every verse they can against homosexuality and the like.  However, I've heard it said that you can find basis for anything you want to believe in the Bible, if you just hunt out pet chapters and verses.  Which is why I kind of quit going by the Bible, and decided to find truth out in the world itself.  It was just too damn confusing trying to take the whole thing at once, and not pick out pet passages.  There's just so much of the thing, and so much of it is obscure, and it's all been translated umpteen times anyway, and I've always wondered how the chaps who picked out which books got included got their know-how! 

But don't let all the burning and stoning fool you.  That's not all there is in the Bible; in fact there is much beauty and wisdom waiting in there.  It just kind of has to get dug out, like jewels in a mine.  And like a mine, there's more rock than jewels, and it's kind of difficult and dangerous to get at stuff at times.  But the jewels are worth finding.  Sometime, I've got to get myself a new Bible (unmarked from my earlier Christian days), and go through it, and find what I really like in it.  I think I've got myself far enough away from my old teachings to handle it now.

Oh, and the whole seed-spilling, masturbation thing - wasn't the only time it was mentioned was back in Genesis, when Judah's oldest son died, and the younger sons were supposed to raise a kid for him?  They were bad for spilling their seed  because they were being selfish and shirking their responsibility for their brother.  I don't think that I've read of anyone getting bumped off for just randomly petting the one-eyed snake anywhere!  Correct me if I'm wrong - I don't have my concordance handy.  Maybe it's forbidden in the other books of the Pentateuch.


Re: Toy Dolls 10
by callei on Jul 20, 2003 - 07:33 AM
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Arth darlin' i just had to take a poke at some of your assertions. I quoted those sections of your comment to which I am replying.
to everyone else, sorry this is so long and so dry. Arth and i used to get into this alll the time.

" To Catholics faith is a gift, something that descends from Heaven and that is offered to all of us just like life is another gift.

Therein lies a difference of point of view.

You chance to have a life is given to you by your mother, by her choice. You choose to live everyday that you choose not to die. You choose to HOW to live every day that you choose to live. You can change your mind at any time and choose to die, choose to live a different way, or choose to use a different way of seeing the world around you.

" I think it’s taken mankind 10,000 years to get to be so arrogant as to disbelieve its own creator, to tergiversate the nature of existence so much as to be able to satisfy their own Pride by saying there is nothing inherently superior to mankind, nothing to follow and give thanks to; 10,000 years to get rid of a focal point in human morality that says that you owe it to God to act a certain way, and by disbelieving God’s existence thus reach the ultimate moral freedom to do what they want."

I wonder where you get 10 thousand. Humans have been humans for more than 10 thousand years. Many religions have been around longer than 10 thousand years, and still have followers and are still practiced all over the world. My own, the one to which I was raised, is somewhere between 16 thousand and 10 thousand years old, depending on which archeologists you are talking to and which elders you believe. We still believe substantially the same things that we have believed since before the crescent valley was cultivated, a sun god became pre-eminent among those farmers, and the lands dried up causing those farmers to become nomads again.

I wonder where you get the idea that "mankind" thinks they are "better". I think it is from the amount of people that walk away from Christendom and take science as their religion, turn to older religions, or choose to live without a religion. I think this is probably because you come from such a young religion, which so recently split from its parent religion, Judaism (although Judaism is also a very young religion, compared to most). Most faiths over recorded and remembered time have not believed in your god. No matter what you church has told you, most of the humans that have ever lived, are alive today, and will live after us, will never believe in your god. They believe in other gods.

Only the Judeo-Islam-Christian faiths put themselves above and apart from nature, thinking themselves "superior and more loved" that a flower, a bird, or dirt. So it is the nature of your religion that those that walk away from it to think that they are even more superior, more separate from the world in which they walk. Your religion is also in conflict with other religions. It claims that the followers of any other faith are wrong or misguided or evil, but never just different. Most other faiths just say that other faiths are different, appropriate to their locations, or funny.

"Some people say it’s brave to accept there is no God and existence ends with Death, I say it’s far easier to live with that delusion if it brings in hand that no one is going to ask you about what did you do with your life when you die, and thus you can abuse it all you want."

You say that you believe that the nature of human is to believe, and that without that belief, they will live a "bad&quo

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To Callei
by Arthegarn on Jul 20, 2003 - 01:08 PM
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After the talks I've had with you and Shade I am not surprised you are afraid of people who label themselves Christians. Hell, so would I be, but the point is it's not their christianism what inspires me fear, it's their fanaticism.

I hate fanaticism. It's one of the very, very few people that make me turn away from people. The attitudes you describe are those of a fanatic and there is little so much against Jesus's message as fanaticism. The New Testament is full of instructions given to his disciples in which he told them NOT to act that way: Simon the Mage's one is one of the best known, but believe me, there are so many it's trifle to enumerate them. In the long history Catholic Christianity there have always ben fanatics, but I believe we got rid of the last ones about 200 years ago. Now, no matter what you have heard, mine is a religion of freedom. But discussing that would need another extremely boring thread. My point is what you mean when you say "Christian" is what Jesus meant when he said "Farisee". They were a cancer to the Jew religion, their excessive appreciation for the external forms and rituals of that religion had made them lost real touch with God, plus they considered themselves superior to other jews. Pride is Satan's favourite sin.

As for sex and religion... I don't know if I have already said this on this site, but I believe my pope is obsessed with sex. He is an otherwise great, intelligent and wise man (and not at all the senile frail old man some media wants people to believe... He rules the church with Paul VI's iron fist) but he is obsessed with sex. Let's play a game: say something you don't agree with the Catholic Hierarchy's position and you'll see. I'll play what I believe to be the top 10

Pre-marriage sex: Has to do with sex by definition
Outside marriage sex: Has to do with sex by definition
Divorce and similars: Has to do with sex
Contraception: Has to do with sex by definition
Abortion: Has to do with sex
Homosexuality: Has to do with sex by definition
Nuclear Family: Has to do with sex
Priests but no priestesses: has to do with sex
Celibacy: has to do with sex
Euthanasia: OK, this one doesn't have to do with sex

But do you know what? Things are changing. The Pope said not long ago that he knew there would end up being priestesses, but that that wouldn't happen while he was Pope (Not in my watch!). The first problem of the Church of Millions I talked in my prior post is that the Catholic church, because of its Catholic (Universal) vocation must speak with the same voice to the clever and the fool, the informed and the uninformed, the rich and the poor, the readers and the hungry. And the second one is that my Church has lost the faith in itself and its people; most of the hierarchy believes if they explained clearly something so undisputed as the Straight Conscience Doctrine (I'm talking St. Agustine, here), if they explained the khabbalistic meaning of the Parable of the Millions, the world would go astray and the streets would be turned into a fantastic orgy or something. They have lost the faith in that mere believers can decide by themselves what is and what is not a sin and under which circumstances. They don't believe in a christian's self-control. I would also call that pride.

And I am talking about Rome and not about the First Church of Springfield because I am also guilty of pride and sincrely believe that whem Rome falls, all the rest will follow. All the semi-serious at least. So, coupling sex and religion is blasphemous to the farisees here too but, do you know what I think? Fuck the farisees.

Mixing sex and religion? Please! SEX IS A BLESSING! Take a look at Gen. 1, 22. I don't know what will your translation say but the proper one is this "God blessed them BY SAYING: be fertile and multiply (...)" Until I studied this particular verse and came to its real meaning (many translation say "

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