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| Theories: Prophets and Messiahs |
Posted by
Devin on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 05:41 AM PST
It seems to me the fundamental difference between christianity, islam, and judiasm is the disagreement over who is a prophet and who is a messiah. It's interesting that this simple difference can pile up so many other disagreements over what god really said and whatnot - but I have an even more interesting question I've been thinking about.
While everyone's waiting for a first or second coming of the messiah, and waiting for more prophets to tell them what's really up, has anyone considered that it may no longer be possible to have prophets or messiahs in the 21st century?
Nowadays most of the people who have direct communication with the almighty are safely restrained in mental institutions. The few that manage to stay out of those places are either killed by the ATF, or get a big head from all the people that send money to their TV programs, and can no longer tell the difference between what they think and what god says.We haven't really had any new universally accepted prophets in quite a long time.
Even the idea of latter day saints makes most people want to laugh and load their gun. Back in the day, it was a little easier to get yourself a prophet or messiah title. Gathering some followers, doing some neet tricks, and maybe dying for your people would pretty much set you up. Look what Jesus managed to do and how he pulled it off. I'm sure any Jim Jones or David Coresh could have pulled off a similar feat in that world - but look at how they were recieved in the 20th century. And even Jesus didn't really fare all that well. 2 out of 3 major western religions surveyed don't call him the messiah. Moses has a better prophet score card, but I doubt he'd do so well in the 21st century himself.
So if by chance I was to meet a prophet on the street and not give him any spare change, how would I know? What are the modern criteria for a messiah? Why have David Coresh, Jim Jones, or Ghandi not been nominated for messiah or even prophet status?
We have to assume based on history (take Jesus for example) that most people will NOT like or agree with most messiah's and prophets while they are alive. Most people will think of them and their followers as a delusional cult. If you assume this, you have to agree that statistically, chances are pretty good that you are going to be one of those people, so you're not really qualified to comment on this question.
But I'm sure you will anyway.
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| Prophets and Messiahs | Login/Create an account | 11 Comments |
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Re: Prophets and Messiahs
by Schizo on Sep 23, 2001 - 06:17 AM
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Ironically enough, the church I used to belong to believed that their founder, a Baptist minister who split off from the church in the late 1800's, was Elijah the Prophet, who was supposed to appear before the return of Christ. Both Jesus and John the Baptist were asked if they were Elijah, and both refused the title.
The church has been called a cult for this reason. I call it a borderline cult.
Whether or not this guy really was a prophet is beyond me. He died a few months before my mother was born, so I never met him. I do know that I can't stand his great-grandson, who runs the Bible School I used to attend.
The main problem I have with this issue is not the man himself, but the way some people think about him. They seem to put him next thing to God, and take his opinions on life above their own. When I was a teenager, I really believed he was a prophet. Now I don't care. I just wish people would remember that, prophet or not, he was a human being, subject to all kinds of errors and emotions like the rest of us. Even the Biblical prophets were flawed, and the Bible doesn't mind showing that. Even the original Elijah, even John the Baptist. And I think the Bible's interpretation is flexible on purpose, because every person's life is subtly different. But there are people I know who give this man an honor and a position that they fail to give anyone else in history. And that's not right.
He may have been a prophet, or a looney, or a con artist. But frankly, I don't give a damn. It's my responsibility, and mine alone how I want to think and act, and it's a cop out to pass that on to any man, living or dead. The only person worth taking orders from automatically would be God Himself, if you believe He knows everything and cares what happens to you. But definitely not a mere man.
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Re: Prophets and Messiahs
by Rogue (judenouveau@yahoo.com)
on Sep 24, 2001 - 08:32 AM
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The problem with the prophet thing is knowing when to stop. The Samaritans (a non-prophet organisation) stopped before any of the prophets, the Jews stopped after a few prophets, the Christians added a prophet or two, and the Muslims (the most prophetable of my examples) added one with the stipulation that he was the last one. Each group thinks the others are wrong for either listening to a false prophet (i.e. having more prophets than you...like the 5-year-old on the playground, "oh yeah, well i didn't want your stinky old prophet anyway!") or by not listening to the word of G*d as relayed by the newer prophets (same five-year-old, "my prophet can beat up your prophet anyday and twice on Sunday!"). With each new prophet you risk following the wrong guy or not following the right guy, depending on your choice, and you don't know which was right for centuries, if ever.
What nobody gets is the possibility that maybe, just maybe there are different prophets and books and what not because we have different groups of people. What language you speak and what culture surrounds you will colour your perception of everything in your life. Accordingly, if G*d wanted to talk to all people on the planet he would not do it with one vaguely-written text, but with a different message tailored to the different cultural perspectives that rule the people. Edward Saphir will have different impression than Benjamin Whorf, because they grew up in different backgrounds.
In my opinion, each group of people that can be distinguished from another group and that has pursued spiritual enlightenment has been contacted by whatever they needed the divine to be. They were given what they needed to guide them, including a small piece of the big picture. It is wrong for a people to adopt the beliefs of another people the same as it is wrong for a people to try and make others adopt their beliefs. The reason (and the punchline to the biggest joke in history) is that each group has their part of the big picture, and that we as a species will not get the big picture until we can learn to all have our beliefs and modalities without oppressing anybody else because they don't have the same ones as us. In short, only after we learn to play nicely and share (things they teach you in kindergarten, so everybody knows it, right?) can we begin to notice that we all have a little piece of the big picture. Once we have done this we can assemble the big picture and will achieve global enlightenment, but this will not happen if religion X kills religion Y or religion Z succeeds in converting all of religion W to their way of thinking, because we will lose pieces of the whole if we do that. Not until we learn to celebrate and accept diversity can we progress, and this is a good thing because we really shouldn't have certain knowledge if we are ignorant and likely to use in for hateful purposes.
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Re: Prophets and Messiahs
by Arthegarn on Sep 25, 2001 - 03:19 PM
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Yeah, you are right
But I say so for my own reasons. If Virgin Mary was to appear before me, with a legion of the Celestial Army, all seraphs and cherubs singing around, etc, etc, etc, I would not become a prophet. I would run the hell to the nearest psychiatrist and tell hir I have seen too much Ally Mc Beal and are having visions.
I tend to agree with RogeCoder... but I am too tired to outline it today
Arthegarn
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Prophet? Profit did you say?
by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com)
on Oct 01, 2001 - 11:23 PM
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To live is to have strength. This seems simple enough; you live, you affect your world. But what is real strength?
Bertha Knicks will die in three years' time. Her estate will be divided, her children will move on. She had a kind of strength; she persevered through three laborious birthing experiences, a divorce, and a life alone and full of fear. But she persevered. But she will die. And so will her memory.
How many people here remember their ancestry, their home? True, true, we are all brothers in christ, but who remembers their great grand uncle? I remember mine, sometimes. He was one of the researchers who constructed the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima.
What do I mean, rambling like this? Well, my uncle had a strength of a certain kind, too. He will be vilified by some people. But he has had a long-lasting affect on history. Some might measure the strength of a person by the dent they leave on the cosmic-cab-ride we call life. Ever see a child carve "Jagged Jimmy J was here {insert date here}" into a desk at his school? Displays of strength. What do all men desire? Strength.
Our lives will pass, unnoticed, if we do not demonstrate our strength, our ability to affect time for now and years to come. This is what being a prophet is all about. Why can prophets visualize the future? Because they make it so. They make their realities and prophecies come true by will and charisma and a driving ambition and lust for strength that will shape history around them.
"Jesus" had that strength. A2000 year old virgin still dictates the way of life for some people. And some people have a mental preconception that they can't do what he did. What did he do? Wht did Ghandi do? What did J.R. Bob Dobbs, or Ivan Stang do? What did Hitler do? What did Hitler do?
They displayed strength. Ambition made them men that will forever be remembered in history, for better or for worse.
I will not diverge into spiritual healing, "magic(or any of it's poor-english-usage derivatives here, because I will assume that most of you are intelligent enough to realize there is a time and a place enough for that, and this is neither the time, the board, or the location)", divination, gods or goddesses. Since this discussion is about the men who make themselves legends. Think about what difference there is between a messiah and a legend. A legend takes credit for himself, a proophet gives credit to the invisible wall. Nobody likes a braggart, but everybody likes a humble man.
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