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Articles: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! |
Posted by
NightSide on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 02:02 PM PST
That is a good friend of mine's favorite word.... He sells great T-Shirts with that on the back... What does it mean? Different things to different people, but to me it means that I do not bow to any force outside my life.
I do not ask the government for their protection and I do not accept them meddling in my private life. I bow to no god..... nor to any devil. I am a complete unto myself and I need no one to blame when I fall and no one to protect me and make me safe but me and my own will. I don't need a god to blame my faults on...... Oh it's gods will..... Bullshit it's my fuck up. I am not so small and week that I need a unseen being to blame my problems on..... Nor do I see the right-ness in the christians that act like total shits 6 days a week but know it will be ok because they go to church and pray one day a week..... What kind of bullshit it that I ask you.
Become UNBOWED. Take responsibility for your life, stop whining and stand up straight, proud and most of all UNBOWED.... DARE to live free and that also means DARE to take responsibility for your life. The pigs don't make you safe, they just close the bars on your cell...... This July pause to remember that this country was founded by the UNBOWED... "Those who desire to give up freedom to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one," said Thomas Jefferson, words it pays to remember.
I put a link on the links page to my friend's site. Tell Kelly, aka Chaos that NightSide sent you.
Jesse - NightSide
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UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! | Login/Create an account | 21 Comments |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK!
by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 02:31 PM
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I would be interested to know what it was that happened to you in regards to Christianity that leaves you so vehement in it's abuse.
I know the sort of Christians you are talking about. And I deplore that sort of person, be it Christian or pagan or Texan or whatever.
But I think you are missing something in your judgement of those who love and serve God. We are not grovelling. We don't blame God for our troubles. We take responsibility for the shit we cause ourselves, and don't go whining about it. We take the shit life hands us and make something out of it. And hopefully we don't act like shits all week. And if for some stupid reason we do, we know that we'll have to take the natural consequences of our actions. And we take them, and move on, and we don't keep beating ourselves up over it.
Real Christianity is all about standing up straight and quitting the whining. I'm not saying that there aren't a whole shitload of people out there by the name of Christian who whine and wallow all their lives long, but just because they call themselves something doesn't mean they are that thing.
I would like to ask you something. Are you really complete in yourself? Do you never find that you are missing something you need? Do you really think that there is any strength in denying your own weakness? We all have weaknesses. It's part of being human. I assume you are not exempt from this. There is no weakness in accepting help when needed. It shows intelligence, wisdom, and maturity. If God can help me with my weaknesses, why should I not accept that help?
And about bowing, it is different from grovelling. I do not grovel before God. But I do admit his superiority. There is no grovelling in that. It is merely facing the facts. Yet I can still stand tall and believe in my own strength and worth.
Something that is unbendable is often easily broken.
I bow before my King, but I stand unbowed before my enemies. Or at least that is my goal.
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Devin (devin-at-vibechild-dot-com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 03:17 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://devin.vibechild.com/ | Ya know, I think I just figured out why schizo doesn't annoy the fuck outta me like most christians. She has never, to my memory, mentioned the word Jesus on any of these discussions. In all the jesus posts we had, you could substitute the name of any other diety instead of jesus and it would still sound like a jesus post but would make no sense. Try taking one of Schizo's posts, and substituting the name of another supreme being (Devin for instance). They still make sense in the context of that religion. That kicks ass in my book |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 04:08 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I just read my own post with Devin substituted for God and it cracked me up!
I don't really connect much with the name Jesus. Maybe because Jesus isn't a name for God as a whole, just an anglicized name for God for the 30 something years He walked on earth as a human. Besides, I think there are a lot of people out there that know God but don't know His name.
God really isn't a name, it's a definition. Or a title. God has lots of names, and Jesus is actually one of the least beautiful. Especially when put against things like the Bright and Morning Star and He Who Holds the Keys of Death and Hades. Besides, the name Jesus is overused by people who really don't understand who He was. It's worn out. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 05:33 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | The Cogent Christian!
I understand Night's deal with christians. I have be beaten up, fired, spit at, hated, given detention, denied access, etc by people that call themselves christian. That sort of thing teaches you to hate christians. When it happens from all sorts of people, texans, jocks, light skined people and well tanned, rich, poor, etc and the one thing that they all have in common is that they claim to be christian, you learn to really hate christians.
Then along comes a Christian. A person with a sense of humour, and the light of belief in thier eyes, and you try to put aside the hate that you have.
You try to ignore the lesson that life has taught you about people that have this belief structure. You try to keep anopen mind and take them as they are. And for awhile you succeed.
But they get hurt that you have this hate, that you are trying to put it aside. they don't really understand. And you find yourself on opposite sides, even when there are no sides to take.
It makes me sad a bit.
I am starting to think that it is inevitable, that christians HAVE to talk about it, and that wouldt be bad. It wouldnt, except for the language that they use. the way that they express themselves tends to annoy, the demeaning words, the whiny words, the violent words, the dispairing words.
I dont think that the words mean the same thing to Christians that they do to other people, I dont think that the concepts behind the words hold the same connotation.
I think that is where the friction starts.
Schizo stick to your guns, believe what you believe. Just understand that many of us dont. That we dont talk about out faiths BECAUSE they are personal. For many of us, faith or belief, or religion isnt something that you talk about, its something that you have and hold close to your heart.
*rant concludes* |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Schizo on Jul 27, 2001 - 07:31 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I think I understand what you are saying. Yet it is hard for me (as I'm sure you also understand) to see something so precious to me treated like a sick disease. To be lumped with the very people that I myself can't stand. So I take this beautiful, very personal thing and put it on display, so that hopefully people can understand that I am not the same creature.
And there is so much that I do not talk about, will not talk about, because it is SO personal. Just like there are things you won't tell about a relationship you are in, if it means a lot to you.
I want to be sensitive to those who have experienced pain from those who say they are Christians. But I would like the same sensitivity in return. I generally try not to jump down people's throat when they talk down Christianity, but it seems I have gotten a lot of it recently, and something in me snapped.
I'm sorry if I hurt anyone in the process, but I do believe I had to say something. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 27, 2001 - 09:11 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | I think what may help you understand the reluctance and resistance that you see from the rest of the world about the christianity thing is that we have been tramatized by it. Our parents have been tramatized by it. other countries are tramatized for it.
It isnt what you personally believe, its that you use a label that has the same connotation to us (the rest of the world) that satanism holds for the christians.
This sounds harsh. It is also true.
I cant marry legally the way that I want/was raised to believe because this is a "christian" nation. I am supposed to undervalue my stepfather and call him my step father, instead of one of my fathers, because this is a "christian" nation. I lost my credit rating (ie proof of citizenship) when i got married, i lost my name, I lost status all because this is a "chistian" nation.
By now some of you have guessed, im native american, blackfoot to be exact.
My cousins still live on consentration camps because of the "christian" beliefs that say that they are are sons of cain ( think that is the reference).
Please understand, it isnt that i have had something that i value and hold dear insulted that i resist the christian dogma, the christian ideals, all of it. It is because of the real and tangable evils done to me, my family, and my friends because we are not christian.
To differentiate yourself from "all those other people" is important. i respect that alot. It is hard to tell the difference between a decent person that is Christian and the regular sort. the fire and brimstone, door to door ones are easy to pick out. they cross the street to avoid me, tell their children that they cant play with me (when i was little) refuse to higher me, call me names etc. the ones that jsut go along with the Christian beleifs are guilty of crimes by omission. they omit to think, to use that free will that their god gave them.
You are not in that same class I hope. I dont know for sure, because you talk about your god alot, and want to tell us about him/her/it alot. the words that you use make me wonder how you would say them in person. would they sound as condeming in person?
Im not going to "hate" you for your faith, that would be silly. But i think I am allowed to be concerned about your motives when you claim not to be one of "those kinds" and still act like one. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 12:03 AM (User info | Send a Message) | How do I act like one of "those kinds?" Up until now, when have I ever really spoken up front about my faith? In the beginning, yes, when that Bill Gates guy was going on and on, because I wanted him to know that his theology was twisted and I was sick of his misrepresentation. Perhaps I've mentioned it in passing now and then. It's a big part of my life, and I see no reason to hide it away as if I'm ashamed of it.
Never have I tried to convert anyone. Never have I belittled anyone for their faith or lack thereof. Never have I thought the less of any of you because you don't believe the way I do. On the contrary, I look up to you, respect you, and try to learn from you.
I use Christianity as an example and parallel in some of my arguments, because it's something I know and understand. And from reading other's postings I know that many of you are educated at least in basic Christian history. I posted my article because I've been getting a lot of anti-christian input recently. I had a rant in my head. Should it be censored because it has to do with my religion? Is Christianity the last taboo? Can people talk about their beliefs in witchcraft and satanism here, but not Christianity? I agree, many horrible things have been done in the name of Christ. But that does not make my rant any less valid.
And the comments I have posted on this article are in response to the content of the article. Certain things were said about Christianity that I disagree with. If these things were said about music or art or philosophy or any other subject, I would feel free to express my opinion. I am aware that the majority of you disagree with me. I'm OK with that. If you continue to disagree with me for the rest of your lives, that's not my concern. It's your life, your free will, and you can do what you like with it. I will continue to respect you and like you and look up to you. And I will continue to write what I think.
And it is what I think. Not what I have been taught, but what I have fought out for myself through tears and pain. And I have close Christian friends who so strongly disagree with me that they no longer feel comfortable getting close to me anymore. I've sacrificed for what I believe. What I say is not lightly said.
What would you have me do? Pretty much everyone here knows I am a Christian. I've made no secret of it. You know my nature. Do you really expect me to just let it all go by? If I'm pissed why should I hold it back? I think I have been careful not to be offensive. I realize that many of you have suffered at the hands of so-called Christians. Shall I martyr my opinions for the sins of other people? No. I want people to judge me for who I am, not for who all the other Christians they've met are.
In light of this, and in light of recent articles, comments, and postings, I feel I have no choice but to lay my faith before you. I realize I am setting myself up for being called an evangelist. Let everyone know today that your beliefs are not my concern. I do not say these things to change anyone here. That is not my business. I lay them forth in a spirit of open debate and discussion. If they make anyone uncomfortable, I am sorry, but I was not aware that this website was set up for the purpose of mutual comfort, but rather release for our personal shmengy experiences. You may post your experiences of shmengy Christians. I will post my reactions to the shmeng given me by the misrepresentation of the dearest thing in life to me by those who claim to treasure the same thing.
I will not be intimidated out of this.
(Not that I think that is your intention, but perhaps intentions are easily misunderstood by all of us.) |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 28, 2001 - 10:35 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | Is christianity the only thing that you feel that you know well enough to use as a debate tool? It is problimatic as one since those you are debating with hold it in different regard. the parable that you think teaches joy, i may think teaches pain. I may not even be able to follow your arguements because they are based on "faith". Can you see that?
As far as sensoring yourself, that is a choice that you make for yourself. Your constant name dropping as caused me distress. It makes this one more place where I have a faith that I am uncomfortable with shoved in my face, used as a whip to play with my emotions, as an arguement in conversation, and an easy way to make an enemy.
I censor my comments for you. I use distress, instead of piss me off, I use other words than bible thumping doormat, pain mongers, hate preachers, daddy fixated fools, and all the other little phrases that come to mind. I have honestly tried to put aside my...... disgust of your faith to see you as a person. I have repeatedly ignored the bible babble that you post and say to myself "she is using the forst analogy that comes to mind she isnt trying to be a jerk".
my faith tells me to beware of those that say that pain is normal and right, that suffering is important to cleanse us.
have you told us anything happy? (other than passing the goth test) you told us when you lost your job, but not about a new one (unless i missed a post).
The point is that you are Christian. you behave that way, talk that way. You wallow in the bad, see the world as a good vs bad powerplay. you involve yourself in unhealthy relationships and expect us to cheer. ok to explain that one.... boyfriend bad, yet you want aprroval since you are doing the "right" thing and getting involved in a long term relationship. Why the boyfriend is bad is another rant all together...
I can pretend to be Christian well enough to see your points, to get (i think) most of what you post. I have practice at it.
You, i think, try to return that sensitivity when you remember. but its not just refraining from saying "God" or "Jesus" alot. i dont ask you to live to the same standards that I do. I coudnt live your way after all.
I dont ask "sensitivity" of you. In general I have found that Christians can't be that sensitive and I dont want to test that here.
I dont ask that you muzzle your faith. My issues are mine. You have no power over them.
I would ask that you try to see that some of us arent bashing you, and that you are being overly sensitive to the scattered "xian" remarks. That you restarted this "religion" and that because of what your religion is, the way that it plays out in your life, its makes you seems antagonistic and patronizing to others. And that we dont react to the inherent hate message that comes across very often. I pushed back a few days ago only becaue i was having a bad day and then to come on here and feel that it had been infected with the same disease really pissed me off.
this site has been nonreligious MOST of the time that i have been here, baring the billy episodes. and to have it suddenly be a bastion of "right thinking" christianity was jsut too much for me that day. I lashed back. Im not sorry. you invaded MY space with your views. If you dont like dealing with people that try not to see you as lesser for your faith, go back to the church and hide there. You have heard a version of this at your church, but they told you it was "right" to take your beleifs out there with you and LIVE them, to rub them in other people's faces. this is a major part of why the rest of the world hates xians. We get bored watching them wallow in it.
Out here in the rest of the world, they will think less of you because you are a girl (good xian beleif), have facial peircings, arent skinny enough, arent fat enough, because you dont belong to the right church, whatever.
I dont know why i still bother to "debate" the Christian thing. i'll leave of now. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by ickgirl on Jul 28, 2001 - 12:49 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.envy.nu/ickgirl | YES! Thank you Callei. As I was reading this I got really excited.
I don't come here to learn about christianity. I've never been christian, went to public school, never went to church, but "somehow" I get my fill. I live in the USA, afterall.
Concerning the site, yesterday I asked devin "what is with all this god god god blah stuff?"
Fine. If it's a big part of your life - go run wild with it. But there are plenty of things about MY life that I dont splatter all over this site, especially something of a personal/delicate nature.
Here is the purpose of this site (in the FAQ section):
"Shmeng exists because people suck. Everyone tries to keep a positive outlook on life, but sometimes it's just not possible. You're going through life all content and smiling, and some fucknugget comes along and does something that's just plain stupid. Everyone has these stories. Everyone loves these stories. Why do you think the Darwin awards exist? Shmeng is as good a place as any to tell everyone about your stupid people experiences. What should you post? Bad dates are always good. Stupid things people say, clueless friends. Anything shmengy."
I haven't slept or I'd perhaps be more eloquent, but maybe not. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 05:09 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I was not aware that all shmengy things were allowed except pro-Christian ones. If that is a law here, it should be posted. And please don't say that everyone else leaves religion out. Wiccan, satanism, paganism, atheism, and judeism have all poked their heads up at some time or other. But especially anti-christianity. I've tried my best to understand what people here have experienced at the hands of Christians. But I have a valid Shmeng and I'm sorry if you don't like it. It's over now, and out of my system. And if no one had produced challenges I would never have had to answer said challenges.
I never meant it to become any more than a bit of venting and perhaps a friendly little theological debate. I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest inadvertantly.
If I was bugging everyone so much all along, why didn't you let me know? I DO like to be sensitive to other people's feelings, as long as it doesn't involve pretending to be something I am not. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Schizo on Jul 28, 2001 - 05:00 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I think it is a human tendency to talk out the bad things that happen to them and forget to mention the good ones. (By the way, I don't have a job yet, but it seems one is on the way).
After all, this is Shmeng, a forum specifically for letting loose on the nasty stuff that life flings at us. I don't think I have been more negative than anyone else.
I'm sorry. If I am a part of this website, then my faith is a part. Perhaps I should go, if the primary thing in me is so unwelcome. I don't think I realized how much people here have suffered at the name of Christianity. Now I know better. But still, how do I censor myself? Can I cut that piece out of me and act as a partial person when I come here? Will I then be Schizo or a limping cripple?
I don't want you to censor yourself for me. Use the words "piss me off" if something pisses you off. How am I supposed to know how much it hurts you if you muffle the protest? I'm willing to listen. I'm not here to cause pain. I honestly did not know I was shoving my faith on people to an enfuriating degree. Most of my mentioning of it was intended in a sort of self-depreciating way. Schizo the Resident Christian. My ideosyncrasy. When I feel safe and among friends I end up relaxing and sharing this part of my life now and then. Not to make people uncomfortable, but as a sign of confidence in their wisdom and good-will towards me. It leaves me vulnerable, but I felt safe among you to be myself. I guess not.
I do not wallow in the bad. I experience it and do not hide from it. It shapes who I am, and much of my deepest knowledge of the world around me and the way things work came through bad things that happened around me. I respect pain. I do not search for it, I do not jump up and down gleefully when I see it, but I respect it. But life for me is good. I love life and what it has brought me. Perhaps I should have posted more of this, but again, this is Shmeng, not HappyJoyandLaughter website. The focus of this place is venting. I wish you could see more of the me that laughs and laughs. That loses itself in a good book, that goes out in the rain and raises her face to the sky and feels the water lightly touch her face. That is who I am as well. Life is good, life is beautiful, and I want to live it as hard and happily as I can.
I have set aside the first reaction of anger time after time after time myself, when I come across some anti-Christian statement. I've been here since about May, and I'd say I run across something every couple of days. I let go, tell myself that they aren't targeting me, just releasing shmeng about real hurt they have recieved. And generally I don't even make a comment about it. It's OK. I'm not offended. Just now, I've been tense about some other things in my life, and it seems a whole cluster of particularly hard-to-let-go-of ones rained in on my head, and not just from here. So I released my shmeng. I didn't mean to unleash a hurricane. But my shmeng is valid, too.
Do I really come across as patronizing? I look up to you people. I genuinely do. And I make sure to say so. I've learned so much from you. Is it because I think I'm right? Why would I bother to believe something if I didn't think it was right? But I don't think I know everything. I don't know the half of it. I can be stuck on myself, but that's my personality flaw, not a part of my religion. What I believe doesn't make me any better than anyone else.
Is this place truly non-religious? Or just non-Christian. Hints of paganism, of satanism, of wiccan flow here and there. Some I agree with. Some I don't. I saw no signs posted saying "no religion allowed". I saw that this is not a religious site, but I also saw open discussion of all sorts of things that may or may not be offensive to me. This place always seemed to me like an "anything goes, post what you like" sort of place.
And is it your place? It is mine too. You have been here longer, it is true.
Read the rest of this comment... |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by NightSide (nightside@vampirefreeks.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 03:31 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://hcgothic.iwarp.com/ | Geeze why does EVERYONE miss the point. WE ARE ALL GOD ALL THAT IS IS GOD BY THE BIBLES VERY DEFINITION.... GOD IS UNIVERSIAL, GOD IS ALL ALL IS GOD. YOU ARE AS MUCH GOD AND ANYTHING ELSE IS. Does not the bible say... Omnipresent, omnipotent? If that IS what one TRULY believes or KNOWS to be true then to love yourself and your neigbor is to love GOD because it is the SAME. Not Christians that is the WRONG take maybe I should have made it a bit clearer, ORGINIZED religion read CHURCH that place that tells you FEAR waht you should LOVE in order to make you a slave not to GOD but to the CHURCH that only wahts money and power. God is not a HE or a SHE GOD is ALL the culmanation ov everything in it's functioning whole.
And again it is just my take on things. Everyone is welcome to thier own. I was reaised in Christian Foster homes, and Catholic boarding schools to answer your question about where I came by my dislike for most self proffessed christians. There are TRUE christians that do follow what they truly believe got no problems with that but myself I am Buddist and I truly think that when the crap placed in religion to scare the money out of people is removed they ALL say the same thing. All that is is part of a harmonous whole and good done for the whole is good back at you. Karma, the goledn rule what ever you call it.... The rest is just to sacre power or money sometimes both out of someone.
See in my ideal you are as much your OWN king as any for are you not TRULY part of god, and as part of the whole you are olny bowing to yourself..... All in all, I feel that if one does good, not out of FEAR of punishment but because GOOD is in thier heart then whatever god there is will not take issue with it. God SHOULD be love and peace not frear and hate.... If you have to fear GOD to be good are you TRULY a GOOD person? Not in my book.... You are just bribing the athorities to not punish you. Not REALLY good at heart.... I don't have anything aginst those that truly beileve and live a truly good life, just the so called christians that are only good one day a week....
As for easily broken..... Well near 50 years ain't broke me yet.... There is a BIG difference between bending and bowing..... That is the kewl thing there IS room in this world for us ALL. Free to believe what fits us. Ever read or heard about the God/Brain theroy? It is an interesting one....
I will NEVER tell anyone that they do not have a right to believe as they choose I could be far wrong and you right on but I think either way the key is to lead a good life for the right reasons, then you won't fail reguardless of how you see the universe. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Arthegarn on Aug 08, 2001 - 10:08 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Let's see. We are all God? God is everywhere but that does not mean he is everything. In latin, and in most latin languages, there is a difference that there is not in English within the verb to be. There are two separate verbs, one meaning "to be at a place" and another meaning "to be this way". So, when we say god is everywhere it just means It shares the place with something, not that It IS that thing.
God is omnipresent, meaning that he is everywhere. But he is not just omnis, meaning he is everything. Everything shares the existance of God, just as everything created in an RPG shares the existence of the Game Master, but it does not mean that the PCs are the Master.
I share my existence with God, but I am a separate entity. When I love God, I can love the part of God there is in me, or love God through me, but It and me are not the same, so i can not love and serve It by loving and serving me.
As for the Church... that would require a separate rant. Being a Roman Catholic I also get a lot of shit because people's misconception or misinformation about the Church, or by them going over the same bloody hystorical issues now and again, moreover in a country such as Spain which has lived under the so-called Franco's Church influence for 40 years.
Last, but not least... The concept of fear to god, it is an ancient way of expressing respect, awe. Remember Hebrew is an extremely poor language, badly tranlsated to both Greek and Latin as these languages have much more precise concepts. It's like that anecdote about Japanese that it has a single word meaning "sound made by an animal" which obviously encompasses barking, meowing, croaking, buzzing, shrieking... So don't take the bible too literally or you'll end up lapidating your neighbour...XD
As for the rest, I praise your tolerance. |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by NightSide (nightside@vampirefreeks.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 03:38 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://hcgothic.iwarp.com/ | On the weekness thing..... One thought, you have only a GOD to seek help from. I on the other hand have the universe. I have found my self in need many times but I have always helped ANY I could that were in need that I have been able to help and when I have ever needed help it has been there. I prefer active Karma to begging a big buddy upstairs for help. I have found that if I help others when they are in need and I can help that the aid I need when I need is it there for me. Karma. Likewise if you screw others you get that back too.....
But again it is just a different way of looking at the same thing, I use the word UNIVERSE meaning the culmnation of all you use the word GOD but it is pretty much the same if one truly believes in the core of christianity, the golden rule.... So you and I may not be so far apart as you might think.... |
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Re: UNBOWED Is Goth as FUCK! by Schizo on Jul 31, 2001 - 05:11 AM (User info | Send a Message) | I don't think we're very far apart at all.
I really don't give a damn what name you give it. Whatever it is, it's big, it's beautiful, it's powerful, and it helps me. I call it God because that's what I'm used to calling it. (I also happen to believe the Bible, but I don't really find it central to my faith. To me, it's a sort of history book/letter from other people who believed in God about God. I believe it's true, but it's not the be all and end all.)
Anyway, it's not names and terms and even thought-patterns that count, it's the bent of your heart (as trite as that may sound) that determines what sort of person you are. Otherwise, ignorant or unintelligent people would never have a chance. So I think that God, or Karma, or the Power, doesn't care what you call It or what you think about the history of the universe, just as long as you aren't fighting It.
Of course there's more to it than this. But what I'm trying to say is, I have no problem with what you believe. I have no problem with what Callei or anyone else here who has a heart believes. I've found kinship, and I think that deep inside, no matter what controversial names or detailing we put on our beliefs, we are on the same wavelength.
On the other hand, I am not anywhere near on the same wavelength as Hitler, (who claimed to be a Christian), or the Christian Coalition, or the administrator of the Bible School I attended for 3 years. |
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Can we pause for a moment, and take out our goth as fuck dictionaries?
by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com)
on Jul 28, 2001 - 10:07 AM
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The Random House College Dictionary
Bow-- 9. to be excessively polite or deferential. 10. an inclination of the head or body, as in submission, salutation, or acknowledgement.
Un-- a prefix meaning "not", or as per a revrsal of state of an object
Unbowed-- not bowed or bent. Not yeilding or submitting, as to defeat. Not subjugated.
The problem comes when you attach this word to a concept-- a form of rebellion. 'Unbowed' obviously means not to fly with the crowd, or to bend to any conformity, correct? But when you walk around with a label that says, 'Unbowed,' who is the one conforming? Who is falling in for a mob mentality?
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Re: Can we pause for a moment, and take out our goth as fuck dictionaries? by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Jul 28, 2001 - 10:36 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | you little hell-raiser you! how can you think this clearly on a satuerday morning? |
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Re: Can we pause for a moment, and take out our goth as fuck dictionaries? by NightSide (nightside@vampirefreeks.com) on Jul 29, 2001 - 03:51 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://hcgothic.iwarp.com/ | I see we have another here that plays devils advocate! Kewl I usually get stuck with that job.... And.... I KNOW you got the real point.... Didn't you? LOL I don't think I will have to worry about a legion of UnBowed followers, it is just to hard a path for the masses.... Self reliance and most of all BEING responcible for ones OWN actions is not very popular today. Everyone wants safty handed to them, well not ALL do. There are a lot of free people in the world but the numbers drop each year. I look at the people I grew up with and 99% are just old worthless shells of what they once were just looking for a hand out.... Or up.... So afraid of pain that they have drawn into a shrivveled mass of fear. Not becoming that is what being unbowed is about to me.
I live every day for all it's worth, the pleasure and the pain, and all else. I have made it farther then most I know and I don't plan on ever giving up till I am cold and dead. So to each his/her own. |
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BOWED Is Goth as FUCK??
by Arthegarn on Aug 08, 2001 - 09:37 AM
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You know, Nighside, I think I agree with you.
At least with the original theme. I believe that a characteristic of the goth culture is an attitude of extreme pride in one and one's achievements. Perhaps pride is not the best word, but I can find no other to translate "orgullo". A Goth walks the road of life with a tall head, caring nothing about people who do not prove themselves to hir. That does not mean s/he despises everyone, s/he just does not care about most people or their opinions. In dubio pro reo is not Gothic. if you want to be considered an equal prove yourself, because I am sick of mediocrity. And just because goths tend to consider others as under them, they (we) also tend to consider what uses to be above them at their stature at most. Goth relations with the Government, Church or even God (when there are any) are on an equal-to-equal basis. Unbowed is definitely goth, I agree.
Now, I also think there is a great deal of romanticism in bowing to some things... but just because you choose to bow before them. Death, for instance, as the ultimate equalizer. I bow to Death because it is bigger and larger than me and I can never defeat her. I also choose to bow before my God, because i am free and I choose to do it, not because I am forced by stupidity or tradition. And to beauty, poetry, and some people who are really exceptional individuals, or rather to parts of them, who I take as living examples of reaching aspects of themselves I also want to reach. Notice that I don't want to say I take them as role models because that usually implies trying to become that person and not you, and what I want to do is to be like that person is in this or that aspect (Detritus, for instance, a friend of mine who is an artist and creates amazing works, but whose rest of character I donot share nor find admirable).
I think Goth is knowing where you stand without fear. No fear to say you are better than this or that, and no fear to say that you'd like to improve yourself to reach where that or that reaches. Knowing what is petty and what is grand, and knowing where to bow. So, Bowed can, in some aspects, be "as goth as fuck", too.
Well. I think.
Oh, by the way I also hate these people who call themselves christians and then live with hypocresy in their hearts... but remember that, just as we said that there are a few of true goths and a lot of posers, there are also a few christians and a lot of posers.
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Re: BOWED Is Goth as FUCK?? by NightSide (nightside@vampirefreeks.com) on Aug 13, 2001 - 07:50 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://hcgothic.iwarp.com/ | I understand your point too.... Bowing can be fun esp. with the right lady to bow to, but by choice..... Right. If you have a God then do what you must for him/her.... Like I have said me I tend to the buddistic thought that all is part of a whole so to bow to god is just bowing to yourself and the universe all the same in my book....
But you DO get exactly what I am talkig about. I should have left the god thing out seems to get people fired up but that is good too.... Premotes conversation.... But I did not mean it as a insult to those that choose to have a particular god.... There is room for all in this world and the differences in us are what truly make life worth living....
Nightside |
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