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Articles: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit! |
Posted by
gothvail on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 04:01 AM PST
This morning in Archaeology of the Body, we had a lecture about forensic pathology. The gentleman who gave it had spent a few months in Kosovo a couple years back. The lecture wasn't very relevant to what I am planning to do with my life, but the slides certainly hit home.
His job as a forensic pathologist had been to help unearth bodies for identification and to collect evidence for the ongoing war crimes tribunal. Well, as you can imagine most of the slides were pretty gruesome, since many of the bodies had been buried for less than a year at the time, some of them in body bags.
The slides showed that many of these bodies had been buried bound and gagged, riddled with bullet wounds, and usually with at least one shot to the head at close range. These were not soldiers slain in glorious battle. These were victims of government sanctioned murder. Few have any identifying marks, so few will ever be returned to their families.
There is no glory in what has been done there. Only racism and loved ones who will never come home. I cannot even begin to understand the mentality behind such acts of senseless violence.
We are supposed to be spreading the message of "love thy neighbour". I don't care if you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Atheist or anything else. The message remains the same. One person, devoting every waking hour of his or her life to spreading this message will never reach enough people with it. But that's no reason not to try.
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Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit! | Login/Create an account | 30 Comments |
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by Comedian (comedian@callatg.com)
on Mar 25, 2002 - 01:20 PM
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If my crusty old brain serves me still, I believe it was Ghenghis Khan who ordered that once the troops were done raping the bodies of the dead(often 6 men to a single corpse, gouging new holes with knives as needed), the corpses were to be stacked on top of eachother and covered with mud and shaped to build barracks for the soldiers to sleep in over night.
On of the later trends in World War II was for the wives of high-ranking German POW camp operators to order the skins of certain POWS who had excellent tattoo work done. Often the skin would be removed, tanned, and framed for the wives to put in thier homes. Later, as the trend caught on, a few instances of the wives using the skins for lampshades(thought impractical, because of the stench) came forward after the war.
"Isn't Life Pretty?" -- Ernest Hemingway, shortly before comitting suicide
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by Cashmere (-)
on Mar 25, 2002 - 02:35 PM
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There is no justification for robbing the life of another being, but it happens everywhere. It will not change: it only becomes more publicized. How many people have heard of Pol Pott (spelling). If my memory serves me correctly, he had 1.7 million people murdered in his reign in Cambodia. They couldn't bury all the bones, so they made churches out of them.
It cannot even be called "racism" because these acts were not done in hate: they were to prove a point, or because they weren't even viewed as people in the first place. You cannot even blame the people who did the actual killing: they were told by commanders to get rid of baggage. They are not people, and therefore expendable.
There is no glory in any type of murder. Have you seen any type of "glorious" battle? My uncle ( a nurse for the army during the Vietnam war) had nightmares of people dragging themselves into his tent with their legs nearly severed from traps by their own soldiers. And he was not allowed to help the Vietnamese women and children who were raped and mutilated by American troops. Regardless of what was done, the majority of these women and children died at the hands of these people. He remembered these things until the day he died (as a result of contracting hepatitus in that same war).
As far as spreading the message of "love thy neighbor": it's a good idea, but completely unatainable. Forcing people to love is just as bad as forcing people to hate, and ultimately might have the same result. People are not by nature peaceful. Acceptance that this happens is required, even though approval is not needed.
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit! by gothvail (vail@gothicamateur.com) on Mar 25, 2002 - 05:38 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.gothicamateur.com | I am not interested in "forcing" anyone to do anything. I just hope that by our example, we might teach people a better way. No, we can never reach everyone, but every person we do reach is a victory. I can think of no better reason to try. |
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by darclight (an_impression_of_sound@yahoo.com)
on Mar 25, 2002 - 06:45 PM
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sadly it seems that one's love is always bound to be another's hate. so many things factor into this dichotomy that it's virtually impossible to avoid: culture, religion, distance, language, education, age, class, environment, race, sex...the list goes on forever.
people, whether they intend it or not, are too closed minded to care about anything external to a very small circle of thought. for example, anyone who commutes to work knows the average driver would as soon run over a pedestrian in a crosswalk just to be the first yahoo to reach the next red light. getting to work thirty seconds faster is FAR more important than the poor fuck (...lest we forget fellow human being) in the road.
really, seemingly more so than anything else, it just comes down to ignorance. ignorance has nothing to do with intelligence or education; any harvard graduate can be equally as ignorant as any millworker. rather, ignorance is the refusal of any individual or mass of individuals to work to "see" beyond their own narrow viewpoint. i am ignorant; you are ignorant. we will kill eachother eventually because of this fact.
as far as genocide is concerned...it has happened so frequently with such magnitude all over the globe in the past century (and every century likely) that i almost wonder if it is some manifestation of human nature...a la freud's death drive perhaps on a massive scale?
humanity cannot escape war. war is death. death is death.
i find it pathetic that in an age such as now, when we are on the verge of such "intellectual" and "technological" advances as deep space exploration, biotechnology, cloning, you name it, we are again being hurled into a religious war. a RELIGIOUS war of all things!!!??? i simply can't fucking believe it...genocide and religion always walk hand in hand. to me, religion is the bane of human existence (that and politics...sorry to offend anyone). perhaps more so with religion than anything else do love and hate exist entwined.
but i have said enough. i can't seem to stop once started on this subject. mark my words though: we will kill ourselves be it war or environmental strangulation.
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by VladII (vladII@seznam.cz)
on Mar 26, 2002 - 01:32 AM
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Eli , Eli , lama sabachtani.
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by Dolorosa on Mar 26, 2002 - 06:23 AM
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No freaking comment...
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I wish we did
by Arthegarn on Mar 27, 2002 - 02:24 AM
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I don’t agree that we are supposed to spread the “love thy neighbour” message. Perhaps you and me are, because of our religious background, but not everyone. And that’s the problem. Jews are definitely not supposed to, the Old Testament is filled with proof of that: they are the People of God, the Covenant was made with them. Their clear orders are NOT to make pacts, amends or anything of the like. That’s why there are so many problems in Israel: all they know and care about is that God Hirself gave them that land, and told them not to share it. Muslims are more complicated, but it’s like they are to love their neighbor if the neighbor is a Muslim or at least a Man from the Book who accepts the primordial rule of Muslim religion. And many so-called Christians lose perspective and think their neighbor is only the guy next door who shares with him his culture, religion, ethnia, etc; and that all the rest are “contaminators”. I pity them, because many of them think they are doing what’s correct. In truth I tell you that in the Judgement, when their eyes are opened, they will be the ones who’ll make the biggest crying
My, do I sound like the Bible sometimes...
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Re: I wish we did by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 27, 2002 - 10:45 AM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | to respond to a hate message with a second perspective here, only christians think that they have to have a commandment to NOT piss on everyone else. Most faiths dont need that rule, as it comes more naturally to be kind to others when your life and idiology isnt based on hate in the first place. |
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Re: I wish we did by Arthegarn on Mar 29, 2002 - 10:07 AM (User info | Send a Message) | It could be that, or it could be that it is the one to put it black over white... Nevertheless my message wasn't intended to be a hate one, not at all (more in part II). We could have a looong discussion about the history of religions and the place of love in them. A non existent or non laid out divine rule is not a divine rule, it is something else. |
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Re: I wish we did by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 29, 2002 - 03:53 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | *here we go again arth*
i find it ironic that you would say "talk about the role of love" when i said the word "hate". the idea that they are the same thing is a Christian one, and is also not native to other ways of life.
Some see hate as an abhoration, not as fundamental to the human experience, more like a possesion of the person instead of a part of being human.
its just interesting to me that these ideas (love and hate) go together so easily for you and for others of your faith. |
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Re: I wish we did by Schizo on Mar 31, 2002 - 11:55 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Love and hate ARE to a certain extent the same - that is, they are negative images of each other. What they have in common is that they both care what happens to the other person. They differ in that love wants good things to happen, and hate wants bad things to happen. Perhaps that's why it's so easy for love to turn into hate. Maybe that's also why Christians seem to have a simultaneous reputation for love and hate.
The complication comes in when you try to figure out what is good for someone and what is bad. To many Christians, the ultimate good is to be a Christian, which is why they try to pressure other people to that decision to the exclusion of other "goods". And the ultimate evil is to die an "unbeliever".
What these people don't understand is that it's none of their damn business whether someone "serves God" or not. It's as if they don't think that God is capable of taking care of the situation. So in their desperate struggle to do what they have no business doing, they end up causing more trouble than someone who is consciously trying to hate.
Then, of course, there are those all-too-common twisted souls who see certain types of people as a sort of embodiment of evil, corrupting all the "innocents" out there. They react in violent abhorrence of the evil they perceive, forgetting that A. they can't see into people's hearts, so it is not their job to decide who is evil and who isn't, and B. above all, these "embodiments" are people who they are also commanded to love, no matter how uninnocent they appear.
Unfortunately, these people are so convinced that they are really acting out of love, that it is almost impossible to deal with them. Most of the time they are so brainwashed they are incapable of seeing their error. The only thing to do is to avoid them whenever possible.
If I wanted to argue (which I don't!!! God, please, not another big nature-of-Christianity debate again! My hormones won't take it!) I would say that these people, however prevalent, are in fact the deviants in the world of Christianity, and that the few Christians who really deserve the name don't generally get seen because they don't act in what people now perceive as "normal Christian ways". And still more shun the very word Christian because of the bad rap it has received because of the deviants. |
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Re: I wish we did by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 31, 2002 - 12:28 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | I would totally agree that you dont see the "real" Christians because they dont get in your face, throw rocks at your house, or beat you up. I almost feel guilty calling a "real" Christian a Christian, because the word has such negative connotation to me.
ANd not to argue but..... I think that the bad Christians are in the majority. And it is important that we still love them, still let them come to the proverbial family dinner and accept them as they are, with excuses or lies to cover up thier behavior.
YOU treat people as people, dont justify your actions with your faith (you act from your heart and mind, not a dogma) and have never spead a hate message that i have seen. How can i call you Christian when you dont act like one? You personally challege the stereotype of Christian by being a good, giving, thinking person. You even accept the love of those that dont follow your faith as valid real love, and dont use it as a weapon against the giver.
Do i call them something different so as to mentally disassociate you from them and thier violence and hate? Or do i call THEM something different so as disassociate them from your love and kindness? hehe. |
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Re: I wish we did by Schizo on Mar 31, 2002 - 01:46 PM (User info | Send a Message) | We could just skip the whole Christian bit and call them "stupid people" and "intelligent people"!
I agree that, of the people who call themselves Christians, the stupid people seem to be the majority. (Or perhaps they are often intelligent people with a pernicious stupid streak that keeps them from demonstrating their true intelligence.)
Yet I believe there are many people out there who have a far greater claim to be called the "children of God" than most of those who talk of themselves that way. And of course, by "God" I mean the cool guy I hang out with who helps me be who I am, not the bearded guy in the nightgown with thunderbolt ready to strike down the first person who dares disagree with the teachings of the local Baptist pastor.
Hey, the Bible itself (much as I hate to quote that over-used crutch of the mentally inept) even talks about those who learn of God from the things around them but have never heard his name, and those who never called him Lord but end up on the right side in the end.
I don't know. I just seem to find a kinship with some people, even though on the surface they seem to believe the opposite of what I believe, while I feel a complete stranger to those who use the words I understand and live the way I'm used to.
I guess it comes down to what's in the heart, not what your mouth says or where your feet go on Sunday mornings. |
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Re: I wish we did by Schizo on Mar 31, 2002 - 04:03 PM (User info | Send a Message) | Is it lying if you think you are telling the truth? |
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Re: I wish we did by nocta on Apr 04, 2002 - 12:48 AM (User info | Send a Message) | Truth is a fluid thing. What is true changes from person to person. Of course, there are some things that are universally true, but there are so many things that different people perceive in their own way. There are as many different truths as there are people. What is true to me may not be true to you. I think that's why there are so many religions - people have different truths. |
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Re: I wish we did by Schizo on Apr 04, 2002 - 07:39 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I think the reason that happens is because no one ever knows the whole truth. We are all limited by our point of view. I may see one side of the cube, and say the cube is red. But someone else may be looking at another side that is blue, and their statement is just as valid.
However, if I look at the red side and say it is green, then I am lying. I may inadvertantly tell the truth, but my intent was false, and would lead another to believe that the cube was green from my angle, even if there were a green side elsewhere.
That is why it is so important to tell the truth as you see it, and not let another's differing view shake you. Though, at the same time, it is a good idea to travel around and check out other people's views, or at least to realize that they exist.
Of course, there are also the color-blind people, the ignorant people who don't know the names of the colors, the people who are talking about one thing when you think they are talking about another, and the people with their eyes shut. This makes things confusing.
Yet there remains an ultimate truth, perhaps known fully to no one. A truth that includes all the sides and angles and views. That takes all the seeming contradictions and melds them into a harmonious whole.
This is what the wise person seeks for, though they may never fully obtain it. |
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Re: I wish we did by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 31, 2002 - 01:00 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | Love and Hate ARE NOT flip sides of the same coin. Love and hate are both strong feelings (at times) and are both driven by chemicals in our bodies, but that is where the similarities end. the two can exist at the same time in the same mind about the same thing. they are different.
Being very full and being very hungry are opposites. they too are strong feelings, and are driven by chemicals in our bodies but they cannot exist in the same mind at the same time about the same stomach.
there are so many kinds of love (since our language is poor in happy word we group all kinds of happy feelings together under one word) that they cant all be opposite of such a limited feeling as hate.
hate has a logic to it, you hate for a reason, be it a good one or a silly one, there is ALWAYS a reason to hate. You learn to hate, it is not innate to the human mind. fear is innate (or learned so early that it almost makes no difference) and has a reason or a logic as well.
Many kinds of Love have no reason or justification to them. They arise spontaneously and are seen in the youngest, even those that have no model for love to the oldest who have the most "reasons" and practice at hate. Love is innate to the human mind. babies learn to hug before they learn to hit. old people who are dying reach out for love, not hate in thier last moments. Love, in its various aspects, is what makes us human.
Most languages even relect this difference in that loving acts are called humanitarian and hate crimes are called inhuman.
As for great passions, LUST GREED HATE LOVE and whatever else you want to add, can you say that lust and greed are opposites of the same coin? One wants all for it self and one wants to take it all from someone else. they are different and they engender different actions but are based strong feelings as well...
but no they are arent "opposite" they are not incompatable.
the opposite of love is antipathy, the opposite of hate is acceptance.
please understand that i cannot accept that hate and love are flip sides. This is actually the core reason why so many faiths dispise Christians, from what i have been able to learn. I am not trying to offend anyone, just trying to show the difference in faith/culture/belief structures that provoke these little debates. |
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Re: I wish we did by Schizo on Mar 31, 2002 - 01:52 PM (User info | Send a Message) | I don't know that I was trying to say they were opposites. Love and hate are alike in that they care what happens and different in that they want different things to happen. Of course you can love and hate the same thing at the same time. I do the same every time I think about the psycho-slut. I want good things to happen to her (not necessarily fun or pleasant things, but healthy, soul-teaching, sense-bringing things), but I also have a tendency to feel rather gleeful when pain and suffering rain on her head. The hate is my instinctive reaction to her, the love my chosen reaction.
Come to think of it, is there any such thing as a complete and totally pure opposite? |
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Re: I wish we did by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 31, 2002 - 02:10 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | opposite in the sense of "the other side" i;d say yes. night is the other side of day, like left and right hand the same thing just on other side of an ever moving imaginary line.
and oppisite in the sense of " the furthers extremes on a line" then maybe... just becaue im never sure where a line starts or ends.
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com)
on Mar 27, 2002 - 10:57 AM
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two things about the 'spreading the love thy neighbor' thing....
One most of us just do it, we dont go preaching it hypocritically. People who say "we must save money" usually dont have a large savings account, in fact they are more likely in major debt. If they were saving money, they would be wondering when to spend it, concerned abou thier rate of return, or something like that.
and Most of the world isnt christian, nor does it fall into that catagory of faith, so most of the world ISNT supposed to preach the message of some small splinter faith.
ok make it three things...
It is definatleyyour place to talk about other christians behaving badly and breaking with thier faith. After all those bodies were christians who had been murdered by other christians. and i am sorry that you had to see such awful things. Some deaths are ugly and leave a taint that haunts the lands and the people that they touch.
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit! by gothvail (vail@gothicamateur.com) on Mar 27, 2002 - 03:47 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.gothicamateur.com | Maybe I am just being silly, but I have always felt that "Love thy neighbour" was a message all humanity should share ans spread, not just Christians. Whatever your faith may be, it's still a good idea. |
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 27, 2002 - 07:56 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | i think it comes down to what is meant by love. Love them like you do the drunken uncle that everyone jsut accepts and lets him alone, or love them like the drunken uncle that everyone trys to help change his life. |
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit! by callei (plyn@plynlymon.com) on Mar 29, 2002 - 04:07 PM (User info | Send a Message) http://www.plynlymon.com | and to complete the thought.... Christians tend twards the "try to fix" kind of love, while others tend to the "well that is just the way he is, poor bastard" style |
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by Schizo on Mar 31, 2002 - 12:01 PM
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My thoughts:
Those who know how to really love are already doing it.
Those who don't will only end up hating and hurting under the name of love.
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Re: Love Thy Neighbour, Dammit!
by nocta on Apr 04, 2002 - 12:45 AM
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Violence is necessary sometimes. It's not pretty, but it's true. Unfortunately, it's used more often than it should be.
Why should we need a religion to tell us to love each other or treat each other as we would like to be treated or any of the other common sense things that religions teach? I'm not a member of any religion, but I do see the merit in a few teachings. Don't overlook a good concept just because it's presented by Christianity or anything else you don't necessarily like. If there is a good idea, you can make it a part of you and never mind where it might have come from.
I think that in order to permanently fix problems like violence, we need to start with the children. If we teach our kids non-violent coping skills (among other things), they will be less likely to wage war on each other when they grow up and run countries.
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