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Re: Toy Dolls 10(Score: 5)
by callei
on Jul 20, 2003 - 07:33 AM
Arth darlin' i just had to take a poke at some of your assertions. I quoted those sections of your comment to which I am replying.
to everyone else, sorry this is so long and so dry. Arth and i used to get into this alll the time.

" To Catholics faith is a gift, something that descends from Heaven and that is offered to all of us just like life is another gift.

Therein lies a difference of point of view.

You chance to have a life is given to you by your mother, by her choice. You choose to live everyday that you choose not to die. You choose to HOW to live every day that you choose to live. You can change your mind at any time and choose to die, choose to live a different way, or choose to use a different way of seeing the world around you.

" I think it’s taken mankind 10,000 years to get to be so arrogant as to disbelieve its own creator, to tergiversate the nature of existence so much as to be able to satisfy their own Pride by saying there is nothing inherently superior to mankind, nothing to follow and give thanks to; 10,000 years to get rid of a focal point in human morality that says that you owe it to God to act a certain way, and by disbelieving God’s existence thus reach the ultimate moral freedom to do what they want."

I wonder where you get 10 thousand. Humans have been humans for more than 10 thousand years. Many religions have been around longer than 10 thousand years, and still have followers and are still practiced all over the world. My own, the one to which I was raised, is somewhere between 16 thousand and 10 thousand years old, depending on which archeologists you are talking to and which elders you believe. We still believe substantially the same things that we have believed since before the crescent valley was cultivated, a sun god became pre-eminent among those farmers, and the lands dried up causing those farmers to become nomads again.

I wonder where you get the idea that "mankind" thinks they are "better". I think it is from the amount of people that walk away from Christendom and take science as their religion, turn to older religions, or choose to live without a religion. I think this is probably because you come from such a young religion, which so recently split from its parent religion, Judaism (although Judaism is also a very young religion, compared to most). Most faiths over recorded and remembered time have not believed in your god. No matter what you church has told you, most of the humans that have ever lived, are alive today, and will live after us, will never believe in your god. They believe in other gods.

Only the Judeo-Islam-Christian faiths put themselves above and apart from nature, thinking themselves "superior and more loved" that a flower, a bird, or dirt. So it is the nature of your religion that those that walk away from it to think that they are even more superior, more separate from the world in which they walk. Your religion is also in conflict with other religions. It claims that the followers of any other faith are wrong or misguided or evil, but never just different. Most other faiths just say that other faiths are different, appropriate to their locations, or funny.

"Some people say it’s brave to accept there is no God and existence ends with Death, I say it’s far easier to live with that delusion if it brings in hand that no one is going to ask you about what did you do with your life when you die, and thus you can abuse it all you want."

You say that you believe that the nature of human is to believe, and that without that belief, they will live a "bad" life. You assume an "outside" power will judge you when you die and then do something about that judgment. You promote you faith, as most of your religion do, with vague threats and gentle shaming. Your claim here is that I cannot live a good life, whatever you may judge that to be, because I don’t believe in your god, and that when I die, some THING with "judge" my actions, what I did, (not my intentions, circumstances, capabilities, desires, dreams etc) and decide something about me based on its priorities.

Can you ever imagine how strange this sounds. And how undesirable a thought it is? Why do I need an excuse to be a good person, to be kind to those around me, to give to those who need it, to be loving and compassionate? Can I not do it because I think it is how I want to know myself? Do I have to do it so that some bully wont do something awful to me later?

"What I mean is I never considered my slave condition, if it is such. I’m a lawyer by vocation and I like to play the devil’s advocate with me (I also find it’s the only way to grow): a slave I was and a slave I will be because that’s what I want to be, because I find it natural to have a Master."

To be clear here and maybe make you look again at your sex and your religion and where they differ, religious rapture is a state where in you feel full of something larger than yourself (long prayer when you don’t notice that your legs have fallen asleep and no time seems to pass). Scientific rapture is that moment you feel you can see the math/patterns that are always hidden from your mind by the way that your eyes translate what they see (epiphanies, when the math solution seems to come from your subconscious, catching a ball). Creative rapture is that state in which you are not getting in the way of your art (when the paintbrush, pen, chisel, mouse, light pen, hands etc moves without you trying to control the movements). Sexual rapture is that moment of orgasm (do I really need to give examples of this one?). Sub-space rapture is more like meditation, a calm place where you are at one with yourself and you see that what you do is inter-related with how you feel (think runners high, serious sleep deprivation, any form of active meditation).

All these state share a certain sense of timelessness, of time not passing or being unimportant. That, I think, is the key thing that they do share. Otherwise, they all "feed" and come from different parts of the total human. In all these states, the chemical bath that washes over your brain changes from its everyday state to something different. All are important and good. All are different.

I honestly don’t know if you can understand that. I often find that Christians (in the Catholic sense) cannot think of many things as all being equally good. I find that they want to say that one thing is better than another. I think that is from their religion that claims that somethings are better than others and says that you should do the "better" things more. Over time, and in practice, this tends to lead to the thought that the merely "good" things aren’t worth doing. Its that Duality thing.

"And I don’t agree with the statement that Good can only exit with Evil. "

Yes you do. Your agreement is in all that you write, say, or think. Even your example of Adam and Eve shows that. "…good… is what happens when there is no evil." You do not show that you believe that there is a state other than good or evil, just degrees of the two states.

"That God of millions is the God of all Hierarchies, and thus the God of no one in particular." If I am understanding you here, you are saying that the god that is worshiped in all the churches ("The church is the one of millions, be it my One, Saint, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman church or the First Church of Springfield. Churches is made out of men and women with good or evil intention, saint and sinner") is still the same God. I think that I agree. After all, the rest of us that worship your god, tend to worship our gods somewhere other than churches. this may be semantics to you, but not, I think, to me. I think it is indicative of the sheltered, Eden-like state in which your religion tries to keep you and where you, Eve-like, become mesmerized by the snake and the shiney red apple.

As always it is neat to see your religion in play in what you write and how you write it. I guess my point is, if there actually is one, not to generalize what someone of a totally different religion says about any part of thier life. That the culture/language/system of knowing gap is just to great. And that goes for me too! *wink*



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