The Religious Discussion With Religious Citizens Date Friday, April 19, 2024 - 03:13 AM PST Topic Experiences Here I was, sitting in the northern corner of the Baskin Robbin's icecream store and eating my personally prepared banana splits: two coffee scoops, a cookies and cream scoop, fudge with strawberries and pineapple poured on it, and the traditional cream and cherry on top. My birthday was today; I was finally legal and freed from the need to have parents and guardians monitor everything I do, free from the term "jailbait", and soon, I will be free from the clutches of the most disgraceful, tedious, lazy, and mentally challenged senior class I ever experienced. I'm counting the days, but on the positive end, the experience will be with me. It was not unsual for people to mistake me as someone older than I was because my visage made me look at least in my twenties, as did what some called my level of "intellectual capacity." In my eyes, I act my age and have some growing up to do - it was everyone else that acted immature. Maybe the Kansas way, in General, had a more laid back yet very strict culture; one culture that generally looked at radical thought as too hot, sticky, and noisy. If someone did something stupid in Kansas, they would likely pay the consequences of their actions; it was rare to hear a lawsuit over little things in Kansas. California, on the other hand, is different; it is crowded, filled with extreme levels of energy, have die-hard radicals out the Yin-Yang, and my God(s) - some of the most ridiculous lawsuits ever! I could go on, but I would waste the Shmeng database away. All of these thoughts streamed through my head. I had my share of pigging out on my birthday; those three plates of Chinese and the banana splits were enough for the day. So, I took my leave from the store - just for someone to rush out with me and ask me, "Excuse me, but do you have any spiritual beliefs?" I looked to the person who was talking to me. He was about six feet tall with grayish auburn hair and a mustache; he looked about in his thirties or forties. After looking at him for a second, I said, "Yes, I happen to do." I stood there, listening to what he had to say. He successfully caught my attention, continuing the conversation with: "Where do you think you are going to go when you die?" "I am not one to judge, but I feel that I will keep living until I get things right," answered I. He stood there for a moment, then continued to probe. "What if someone was to tell you that your beliefs were wrong?" In my head, I chuckled politely, but I had to keep my mind cool - it would bring more unwanted energies if I was to act hot. A head cannot think properly in the heat of conflict. Either way, I prodded back with: "I would have them prove it to me and if they convinced me, I would adjust my path. Why?" "Oh, I was wondering if you were interested in reading some lines from the Bible - I know that people think you're a Devil Worshipper, but that isn't what you came across as to me," he responded. It didn't surprise me, so I seriously doubt he would be telling me anything new, especially since I already read the entire New Testament. Regardless of what I thought, I agreed to hear what more he had to say. After all, he was one of the few religious people in public that didn't slap the label of "Devil Worshipper" on me. He lead me to his van, opened the door, and pulled out an indigo blue book titled "Holy Bible." I watched him skim through the New Testament and said, "I already read all of the New Testament, it was what I paid the most attention to back in the day." (It was only a year ago.) "Oh, I do too," he remarked, proceeding to look through the pages. Then he gave up and closed the book, adding, "You know what? I can't find the page at the moment." "Tell me where it's at, I will likely find it," I said. "I know a good amount of the New Testament." He laughed a tad; he almost seemed embarrassed. I turned just for him to say, "Wait a minute!" I paused, turning back to him. "May I have your name?" he asked. "I'd like us to continue this conversation." "Christina," I said, nodding and extending my hand. "You?" "Nice to meet you, I'm Chuck," replied Chuck. We shook hands. "I go to a Church near here." I nodded, fixating my eyes on him and analyzing him. Curiosity killed the cat, so I asked, "What denomination?" "Oh, it isn't a specific denomination!" he said. I nodded again. "My family is Roman Catholic," I responded. Suddenly, he started to laugh. "Oh, plenty of those go to my church! They refer to their selves as 'recovering Catholics' - they tend to joke about it a lot," Chuck explained. I rolled my eyes. "Everyone picks on the Catholics," I commented. "Nothing new." "Oh I know," he said in agreement. "Well hey, I would like your phone number if you do not mind." "I'm a private person, but I will give you my e-mail address for the time," I said. He dug through his car and pulled out a pen and paper. When he was ready, I gave him my e-mail. Then he looked at me inquiringly. "How old are you?" he asked. "I turned 18 just today." I replied. A shocked expression curved on his face. "Oh, Happy Birthday!" he shouted enthusiastically. "Thanks," I said. "Well, I'll contact you later, nice to meet you," he saluted. I nodded and went my way. At a distance, I said to myself, "That was interesting." * * * * * * * Chuck and I kept in touch through casual e-mails. He would sometimes make jokes about bringing fire and brimstone on me or asking redundant questions about Pagans (i.e., "Are you a Devil Worshipper"). It provoked dry laughter from me. Eventually, he set a date to meet again at Baskin Robbin's, suggesting that he was going to bring a friend with him too. I asked, joking in return through the replies, "Is she going to bring fire and brimstone on me?" Of course, he said no, joking that it was his job. The night before the meet, I talked to Tracy on AOL Instant Messenger (well, Trillian to be more exact, at least for me). I told her about the guy and said how I felt that it'd benefit both parties to share their points of views. Also, I mentioned how it would have been a good time to clear out some misconceptions about today's Paganism. She warned me that they may not listen to me. I nodded, saying that I expected the worse. After talking to Tracy, my mom popped on MSN Messenger. She greeted me with the puppy icon (as usual) and I told her about how I was going to meet two religious people to have a religious discussion. Then, being as dry as she was, asked, "So is the man interested in you or 'saving you'?" "Saving me, of course - he's married," I replied. "Well, be careful, there's a lot of crazy people over there," she warned. "I noticed," I typed back. Having the sense of humor she did, she proceeded to say, "For all I know, no one worships God properly. People these days are more concerned about saving people to take time to live their religion." "A lot of them are too concerned about going to Hell to realize their lack of spiritual attainment and practice," I added. Of course, she agreed. Then I continued to add, "Well they seem like anti-Catholic people, so if they do come across as that, I'm going to poke at them by pointing to Mother Theresa and asking about that. That's one of the Achilles' heels of Bible thumpers." My mom and I bided each other good night. For everyone's information here, that was a conversation with my Roman Catholic mother. What do you think? * * * * * * At 2:50 PM, Saturday April 3, 2004, I was sitting in a middle table at Baskin Robbin's. Here I was, drinking pure Espresso Americano, one hand on a container of nuts and cheese next to me and a New Catholic Edition Bible next to it. Chuck and his friend showed up ten minutes later. She was a pretty girl; she appeared Amerasian in origin, had black hair an inch or so pass her shoulders, and wore casual clothes with a cross draped around her neck; she didn't look too much older than me, to be honest. We were introduced and the two sat down across from me. Our discussion began. I do not remember the exact lines, but many of the passages came from Romans. Many of the lines he asked my thoughts on were the ones that involved being "born again" and unsurprisingly, Paul preaching about Christ being the only way. Other lines involved how sinful people are and so forth. The last line he introduced to me was from Revelations, one that involved Jesus knocking on a person's door and them opening it. Nothing new. He asked for my thoughts. I told him that I believed in rebirth and questioned the "born again" phrase being the motto for "born again Christians"; he said that is where it came from. As far as the Christ being the only way, well, as a Pagan, I felt that there was no "only way" in the sense that mainstream Christians feel. Chuck was wondering if I considered myself a sinner and if I would feel comfort in the sins being forgiven; I said that I did not think myself as a sinner and felt that we all make mistakes - it was a matter of learning from them. Rachel (Chuck's friend) was fairly reserved, nodding to my comments and keeping things in perspective for everyone. Her responses surprised me. After sharing what they had to show, I introduced them to the line, "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthews, 7:21)" They interpreted it as living a religion, not preaching it. I nodded. Chuck noticed that I wore cross earrings. He asked what they meant to me. I said that I was fairly fond of crosses and in the Celtic culture it actually resembled the masculine and feminine energies in a balance, kind of like how I view God/dess's creation. Rachel mentioned to me how people today view it as a morbid image or a grateful image; the Romans used the cross as torture. She had her point. They proceeded to ask me what Paganism is about since Chuck read the Webster's Dictionary definition. I told them that Paganism is basically the non-Christian faiths, Rachel was familiar with that definition. I told them how certain traditions are lost while others are brought back. Then I continued to tell them about the variety of traditions, including the monotheistic Zoroastrians who were very similar to Christians as far as the afterlife and deities were concerned. After explaining some of the traditions, I listened to what they had to say. They asked, "So what do YOU believe?" I knew that it was a time that I had to use a bit of diplomacy or better yet, explain what I believed in the way that they would understand it. So, I proceeded to tell them that I believed in God, but also believed that: it wasn't completely separate from everyone; it is part of everything yet it transcends everything; it had masculine and feminine forces yet beyond that; it works in everyone's lives through challenges, experiences, miracles, and faith; there are likely many things that we do not know about it. That basically summed it up except the fact that I tend to use the typical Wiccan/Neo-Pagan pantheon as far as ritual and prayer go (had to keep that part silent, I had to explain how they'd understand it). They nodded. I also continued to explain how spiritual I was and how it served as a comfort for me (does it not for everyone who is spiritual?) Chuck said that it was good thing that I was spiritual. Near the end of the conversation, though, they were still convinced that I needed to be saved. They did not push it on me, but they did ask if they could pray for me. In my head, I was laughing a bit because I was used to that reaction, but my voice said, "Sure." So, they prayed for me and they left it at that. I gave Rachel my e-mail address and they told me what to do if I was interested in learning more from them. When they said that, I told them that I am interested in taking Christian historical classes in college as a minor, which I think made them not so forceful on me. All in all, things turned out better than I expected. The night after the meet, I was telling my stepdad on the phone about the whole thing. Then I continued to rub in how I proved him wrong for he always thought that I was close-minded for I'd not listen to people. Well, I listened to these people and I told him that. He then suggested that because I listen to people doesn't make me open-minded, I then said that even open-minded people draw the line. Either way, I gave him details on what happened - including the joking about the "recovering Catholics." His thoughts on the matter? He laughed, saying, "True Christians do not know who is truly saved." My mom will never let down the thought of me still being a Catholic. Even if I'm not a Christian, I still acknowledge Jesus as an important spiritual mentor and even a God incarnate in his own right; God to me, can incarnate anytime it wants to and likely has more than one time - as they say, it works in mysterious ways. She is convinced because even though I am an eclectic Pagan, I have close ties to my Catholic background and still want to learn from it. I'll not deny it: though I do not consider myself a Catholic anymore, the background still has a lot of influence in my life...except the fact that I don't think Jesus is the only way and believe that the Hells are karmic backlashes. According to my family, Catholics are supposed to be a bit weird, anyway. Either way, I shall be living in interesting times. This article comes from Shmeng http://www.shmeng.com/ The URL for this story is: http://www.shmeng.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=685