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Author: Subject: Preaching to the Choir

Fanatic





Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 21/12/2005 at 02:44 PM
If I wanted to bash Fundamentalist Christians, there are fewer places I can think of that would give me a warmer reception than here. Not that I don't want to bash fundamentalist Christians (at least not until I have established a solid alibi), it's just that I don't want to read a lot of knee-jerk, fight-hate-with-hate, "yeah, they really suck", marshmallowey stickiness.

And then I run across things like this:

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/12/what_the_left_b.html< /a>

Man raises some pretty good points. If a Muslim had written the same kind of antisocial, nightmarish crap as this series of Left Behind books, your average NASCAR-lovin', pork-rind eatin', flag-wavin', slack-jawed yokel would be a-reachin' behind the driver's seat of their pick-em-up for their 12-guage. But, as I said before, as easy (and satisfying) as it is to bash the crispety crunchety Christianies, that's not really what I'm hankerin' to talk about it here.

The sociologist Emile Durkheim made a pretty good case that an organised religion is nothing more than the apotheosis of the culture that engages in it. Except for a few nature- or philosophically-based religions I can think of, this seems to me to hold true. If the Christian God exists, then He must either be completely impotent to curtail suffering or He is one cruel and sadistic son of a bitch to work in His mysterious ways. I'm content to believe that we are not looking at the Divine Will of an omnipotent psychopath at all, but the expression of the collective unconscious minds of a culture of psychopaths.

So what the hell kind of factors cause a culture to keep churning out these twisted, bloodthirsty monsters? And I'm not about to accept the "It's not me, I'm not a Christian!" cop-outs. I'm not a Christian, either... you don't have to be. The kinds of destructive garbage they believe and practice sprouted out of all of us so let's not pull the innocent act here talking about it (or, as they would say, Let he who is without sin be cast in stone... or something like that. I slept through that day.)

This isn't a new thing, either, and the Christians didn't invent it. There's a pretty good treatment of it in Dosteovsky's The Brothers Karamozov (which I really, really wish we would have discussed in the Book Club). Here's a sample that's close to my heart:

http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/brothers_karama zov/35/

To reiterate, if batshit fundamentalists (and they don't have to be Christian) are symptoms of a social sickness (and nobody has come up with a better theory than that as far as I am concerned), then what is that sickness? I'm also not going to sit still for the "It's just human nature" cop-out. All primates (and that includes you and me) have demonstrated in experimental settings that they have a deep-rooted sense of social justice. It's not just their "nature" to enjoy watching others suffer. Sometimes we do enjoy watching others suffer, but there is a laundry list of psychological steps we have to go through in order to make that happen (primarily, we have to use one of any various means to dehumanise or objectify the "other" so that we can convince ourselves that what we are doing is "fair"). But this doesn't explain the gleeful sadism we are seeing here.

What the fuck is wrong with us?



 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 22/12/2005 at 04:04 AM
I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're trying to get at, but I think one of the roots of organizations like fundamentalist Christianity is groundless elitism.

Take the fundamentalist population of America today, as a whole. Most (not all) have very little going for them. They are, to a large extent, the dregs of society. This is key, I think.

Christianity offers worth, even superiority, to those who have not earned it. In fact, that is one of the tenents of the Christian faith. It is not your worth, but the worth of the God you have accepted. The only criteria towards acceptance into this elite society is belief.

And then what do you have? You have a large group of individuals sporting a grandeur and position they have not earned. Maybe in this life they are nothing, but just wait until the afterlife!

The story of the apocalypse is very dear to the hearts of these underprivileged people. Why? Because it brings the switch in power into this life - this world. Someday - maybe in our lifetime - our Leader will come and bring down those who have disregarded us and looked down their noses at us. Because, as sweet as pie in the sky when we die can be, nothing satisfies quite like a nice blood bath of revenge right here and now.

After all, where was Christianity born except in the outcast and enslaved nation of Israel, even among the poorest and most debased of that nation. There, on the dusty byways of Palestine, the desperate created a dream that grew until it swept the world.

Why then do the rich, talented, and powerful buy into this, you may ask? Well, it's not only the poor who appreciate unearned power. The lords and kings of this earth saw this thing called Christianity, and found it to be a tool worth using. The underprivileged became an army for them to general. To further the will of God on this earth became a battle cry. Christianity became the reins by which the elite controlled those who wished they were elite.

So, in the end, poor fundamentalism is about unearned glory for those who have none of their own, or about controlling the masses for those who have more than they know what to do with it.

"True" Christianity is a completely different animal, of course.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 22/12/2005 at 08:20 AM
Interesting point, Schiz. I should mention that what you are describing as "groundless elitism" (good description) is usually referred to by the term "exceptionalism" (and even more often as "American exceptionalism"). It's a process like the one I described earlier that allows us to circumvent our inborn sense of social justice. Why should the US be allowed to hoard resources like petroleum and deny it to developing nations? We feel we are a "special case" for a variety of imaginary reasons. Needless to say, exceptionalism does not usually play very well with the groups who are excluded.

And you did a very good job of explaining where some of this murderous rage comes from as it applies to the "dregs of society" (although I have had some pretty vicious arguments recently with non-US citizens who do not believe that anybody in the USA actually suffers, or if they do, they only suffer in trivial ways). What you kind of glossed over, though, is why the genuine elite also feel this murderous rage. As a matter of fact, since it is only the privileged who have any significant voice in our culture, the formalised doctrine of sadism must come nearly exclusively from them.

The explanation that it is a tactic for control only goes so far, though. While I agree with you that it is part of it, it assumes that they do not genuinely believe the message themselves and that their messages to the rest of us are consciously cynical. Yes and no. I'm sure that when it comes to specifics and details, they are fully conscious of what they are doing. Everything that is presented to the masses is done with the aim of manipulating and controlling them. There is a term for this as well... actually there have been a few. The phrase currently in vogue is "perception management" and there are civilian and military institutions dedicated exclusively to its application and study.

But not all of it is a front. How "Christian" are the fundamentalists in seats of power in the US who are resurrecting the Dark Ages doctrines of fuedalism and a "clash of civilizations"...? That's highly debatable, and an ultimately fruitless discussion. What is not debatable is that whether they have a genuine belief that they are acting from a percieved Divine Will or whether they are writing their own agendae from whole cloth, they are also filled with murderous and sadistic rage against the "other" . In some ways... many ways... those who are not disempowered in our society are more murderously inclined than those who are, even if they aren't the ones physically pulling the switches themselves. Why should this be if the root of this rage comes from feelings of inadequacy? Do the underprivileged have one cause for their sadism and the privileged another?

I'm not sure, but I suspect the justifications are different even if the causes are the same. One thing the "elite" already have going for them is that they have already confronted the issue that they have more than others and have at least begun the process of "making it fair" to themselves. I pointed out above that primates have a deep-rooted sense of "fairness", and we are always engaged in the fiction of justifying why this or that injustice is "right". A wealthy person, one who is already the benefactor of the "unfairness" of life (and who dedicates most of their time trying to consolidate more capital and power instead of trying to distribute it more evenly) must have very sophisticated psychological tools to allow themselves to do this. It seems impossible, at least to me, that an "elite" can maintain the same sense of conscious "fairness" that someone who is underprivileged would have.

One tool that Chrisitianity (or at least Protestantism) offers towards this justification is the elitist Calvinist doctrine. According to Calvinism, there are the "saved" and the "unsaved", and since God is omnipotent, He already knows who is who. Nothing we do on Earth can change a decision that was made from the beginning of time and there is no way that we can truly know which group we fall into. We can suspect, though. Since being "saved" is a position of privilege, God must favor privilege and our material success is a good indication of our standing in His books. Ergo, having more than my neighbour puts me in better standing with the Big Guy. Needless to say, some of the biggest bastards in the last four hundred or so odd years have, at the end of the day, been Calvinists.

But I think Calvinism itself is just one more of those psychological games we play to justify being sadistic monsters. It is not a cause in itself, it is caused by something else... our need to rationalise it. We need fairness, or at least we need to make things appear to be fair to ourselves. At the same time, we are going out of our way to foster sadistic norms that fly in the face of any standard of fair play. The feeling that we are underprivileged victims or that we are "exceptional" due to our circumstances, or even Christianity (as it is preached and practiced, anyway), are simply a few of many psychological tools we are currently using to "make it look fair" and justify it to ourselves, but where does this driving need in us to murder, to torture, to dominate, to inflict suffering come from in the first place?

Why are we driven to make things as unfair as we can possibly make them so that we even have to justify them fallaciously to ourselves? Are all of our twisted rationalisations and the hoops we jump through to make things seem "right" to us partly due to the fact that "fairness" does not, and can not, really exist?

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 618
Registered: 27/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 22/12/2005 at 10:45 AM
Fairness might be, for the most part, simply a state of mind. What seems fair to one person is sometimes so biased by their experiences within a group that they lose touch with the group's collective beliefs. Then, the person instead begins basing fairness on their subgroup's ideals instead. This, in turn, alters their beliefs to be either more extreme or more relaxed than the larger group's, and their tolerance level of outsider's views is altered as well.

I agree that a lot of what goes on is all about superiority issues. Mainly some people wanting to fit in with a group that makes them feel like they are better than the people in the other groups. This sometimes is all a person needs to feel like they belong. Then in order to stay in this or that group, they are willing to do whatever it takes not to be an outcast. That's when reasoning seems to end and fanaticism starts to take over.

We seem to be a nation of followers. However, instead of a bunch of wolf-packs led by alpha members, it seems more like a bunch cow herds led by the cowboys with the biggest horses.

I am encountering fewer and fewer people, in daily life, who are capable of giving a straight answer on their feelings on a subject without the answer starting with a disclaimer of some sort. I hear a lot of answers that start with things along the lines of: "Well, my boss says...", "My pastor tells us...", "Our group leader has told us...", "My family says it's...", and other similar openers. It seems that answers that start with such things as: "Well, my feelings on the matter are...", "I always like to...", "I used to do that until...", "That's okay, but I like to...", and so forth, are becoming rarer. I don't know if it's so much a conscious thought process as it is that some have become brainwashed by the cowboys.

Fortunately, there is still a minority of people who have not yet succumbed to the brainwashing process. So there is still hope, albeit that hope is a very small ember down below a pile of wet wood.

 

____________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 22/12/2005 at 02:54 PM
Humans as a whole are a greedy and grasping race. He who can amass the most possessions has the power do to what he pleases. Humans can become downright vicious when something they consider theirs is threatened. They can also be incredibly adept at justifying annexing the possessions of others.

The rich are attracted to creeds like fundamentalist Christianity because it A. eases their consciences by forgiving their past transgressions incurred while amassing their wealth, and B. gives them an excuse to go after other people's wealth, as long as they can somehow attribute it to the cause of Christ. It is necessary for the rich fanatic to believe in his creed with all his might, because it provides both the justification and the forgiveness he needs to keep from realizing what a cruel and greedy bastard he really is.

I think, between justification for greed and power over the masses, you probably cover most of the reasoning behind rich and powerful fanatics since the beginning of history.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 246
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 26/12/2005 at 07:55 PM
all I have to say is try living in Springfield mo......

 

____________________
When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/12/2005 at 01:51 PM
@Starlight

You raise a couple of interesting side-issues... well, maybe they aren't side-issues since I started this whole thing off as sideways as I could to begin with. Your observation about "followers" and "non-thinking" is a damned interesting one and one that needs to be explored a bit. Bear with me now.

There was a psychological experiment in the 1940's in which a subject was given a post-hypnotic suggestion. That suggestion was this: They would try to find something on their person and it wouldn't be there (since it never existed). They would then blame observer A (not the hypnotist, but another person in the room) for taking it. Sure enough, after the session, they looked for the object, couldn't find it and got angry with observer A, coming up with a whole slew of reasons why they must have taken this object. Now this is the interesting part... the hypnotist never provided any reasons to blame observer A; they simply supplied the suggestion that observer A took the object. The reasons the subject came up with were all apparently rational and logical... if observer B had walked into the room after the subject had been hypnotised, they would have had no way to know that the subject was operating on a premise that they, themselves, had not come to on their own.

What does this mean? It means the subject did not think on their own, but rationalised a thought given to them from an external source to provide the illusion of original thought. The subject convinced themself (and attempted to convince everyone else) that they were thinking when, in fact, they were operating entirely from a conclusion they had absorbed from an external source, but one they had convinced themselves was their own idea. If you can think of a million other examples of this illusion of thinking and free will , then you've figured out where I'm going with this.

The bottom line is that even if a person can produce sound, rational premises for what they are saying, it is no indication that that person is doing any real thinking at all.

@Schiz

Well... not exactly. As I tried to indicate with the primatology studies, we aren't born to be greedy and grasping; that comes about as a perversion of our inborn sense of justice. And even if we were naturally avaricious to the core, it doesn't explain the rage I'm talking about. Where does is the underlying sadism (demonstrated in the Left Behind books) coming from? The fundamentalist isn't after a world which is purified from sin; they want to watch the "unrighteous" being tortured. They don't want to "save" anyone, they want to give the "unsaved" a divine curb stomp. This is the angle that is not making sense to me; not the question of how they rationalise and convince themselves that stealing and hoarding is the "right thing" to do.

@BlueLinn

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Springfield, Misery has a higher per capita of dumbasses? I've been around a few places and talked to a number of indigenous denizens. I've noticed that the quality tends to change slightly, but the quantity tends to remain fairly stable. You'll have to clarify a bit.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/12/2005 at 03:00 PM
I don't want to give up my sideways approach, but maybe I can come at this from another angle.

Is rage a thought? Is it an idea? Is it a philosophy? Is it a doctrine?

None of the above. It's an emotion.

Do emotions produce thoughts? Not so much; but it does work pretty well the other way around. Ideas produce emotions, but emotions only produce the illusion of ideas (that is to say, rationalisations... or tricking ourselves into thinking that we are thinking ). Boiled down: Emotions disguise themselves as thoughts, and we can, and often do, generate "rational and logical" arguments to support these non-thoughts.

Now, given that there is a whole lot of rage disguised as theological or geopolitical doctrine floating around in John Q. Public, it has to be coming from somewhere. Since rage is an emotion (and therefore a by-product of an idea), is this source coming from within the individuals who make up a culture (that is to say, is everybody sitting around and coming up with the same thought that is making them want to hurt other people), or is this source coming from somewhere that is external to the individual but rationalised as if it were the product of original thinking?

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/12/2005 at 03:28 PM
I don't know about not being born to be greedy and grasping. Do we really have an inborn sense of justice? Maybe there's a little of both in all of us - the desire to be fair, and at the same time the desire to have more than our share. Something pulling us both ways. It seems that with some, greed is a stronger pull than justice.

It is a question that has been bothering me for years - why do some people choose to give in to one pull within themselves primarily, when another in a similar situation will follow a different path. What makes some people become walking pieces of excrement, while others are worth their weight in gold? It doesn't seem to have any corelation to circumstance - you find both kinds among the poor and the rich. Does it have to do with an inborn something that nudges one to one direction or the other? Is one person just plain born with a higher tendency to cruelty while another is just born naturally kind?

You might say it has to do with parental training (or lack thereof), but then how do you explain those sweet, patient, amazing people who come out of horrible, abusive homes? Or those "bad seeds" that had loving, caring parents?

What is it in me that prompts me to choose a higher path over a lower one? Or maybe the opposite?

I don't know. I'm still mystified by why I was born hating tomatoes, but my daughter just plain loves them. The idea of choice, even of mere likes and dislikes, let alone creeds and morality, really boggles my mind.

But I definitely think concepts such as greed and cruelty are just as inborn as justice and kindness.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the />
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of

girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 
 


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