Abbadon: I don't think it's so much that we are illiterate as Americans. I
think it's basically that we don't really give that much of a shit about
our grammar or our spelling these days. I blame it on our country's current
leadership.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 29/11/2004 at 06:43 PM
Starlight: Which leadership, precisely, are you blaming this on? I have
vivid memories of American function illiteracy that go all the way back to
Gerald Ford's administration in the early 1970's. You're absolutely right
to declare Americans to be apathetic semiliterates, but if you're going to
blame anyone, blame the media. Personally, I blame the apathetic
semiliterates themselves.
I, myself, am only a generation away from peeling bananas with my feet but
I made it a priority to become reasonably well read and to learn to write
well enough to communicate clearly. If I can do it, if Koko the mountain
gorilla can do it, if Joseph Conrad can do it, then it can be done by
anyone who cares enough about their audience to make themselves understood.
Failure to improve one's communication skills does not simply reflect upon
the laziness of the dullard in question, it is also a vivid example of said
dullard's sociopathic contempt for those who find themselves in the
unfortunate position of having to wade through their anguished English.
Oh, and pale-face: see above. I'm not going to get drawn into the
nationalism debate, but I detest self-righteous defensiveness of bad
habits. If you want anything you say to be taken seriously in a context
wider than this web site, then get off your high horse and mind your
spelling and grammar.
~M.
____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
pale-face
Fanatic
Posts: 478 Registered: 22/9/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 29/11/2004 at 09:15 PM
Mono: understandably so. I try.
quote:As I just said:
Pesticides can be good for you. Try reading the whole post before replying.
You dick.
how mature of you. calling me a dick. threats of me not reading your whole
post because I told you to drink pesticides that could harm you. ever think
the chance of you harming yourself wasn’t something I thought of? it was
rather the intent of the post.
abbandon: it seems were having some what of a conflict here. I’d like to
address it now before you try to insult me for having bad punctuation or
missing a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence. I don’t quite see
why we are arguing on such a juvenile level. making pity comments about
each other over what began as a conflict of interests. be it my fault or
other wise I would like to simply ask, what is your problem with me? what
in the fuck did I do to you?
p.s. seeing as how you seem to be a spelling guru, how did seem to spell
your name wrong?
____________________ fucking classy.
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 29/11/2004 at 09:55 PM
Mono: I was referring to the current leadership, but I can certainly see
your point of how the decline of education is not something brought on by
the current administration only.
This may be only stirring the pot a bit, but what the heck. Stirring can be
fun.
Abbadon/Abaddon is a Hebrew word which can mean ruin or destruction; place
of destruction; angel of destruction; destroyer.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never
tried before." ~Mae West
MystryssRavynDarque
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 648 Registered: 24/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 30/11/2004 at 09:21 AM
Well, it would seem to me that many people on this site have spelling or
typing problems and don't care to proofread their text before submitting.
This is why there are "preview post" buttons as well as "post reply"
buttons. To misspell a word every now and then is okay, but to flagrantly
misspell the same word twenty times in an article or forum is wrong. There
is www.dictionary.com available to us if we are unsure of the spelling of a
word, and there are pocket dictionaries and thesauri at your local book
store available for purchase every day. Also, we all make typing errors and
this too is okay, but if it is repeated I will not take it as a typing
error but as a misspelled word. Sometimes our brains think more quickly
than our hands will type so we leave out little words that are needed like
"of". This too is okay, and does not need to be corrected by anyone
menacingly. Let’s all be kind and realize we are all human and that all
humans make errors. Another tip is to paste whatever you type in a box on
here into Microsoft Word and spell and grammar check the text.
____________________ "People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I don't
think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is the
experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell
pale-face
Fanatic
Posts: 478 Registered: 22/9/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 30/11/2004 at 01:21 PM
I have spell checks on my posts. i don’t just randomly post miss spelt
words intentionally.
and for my little bit of information.
According to a research at Cambridge University, it doesn’t matter in what
order the letters in a word are, the only important thing is that the first
and last letter be in the right place. The rest can be a total mess and you
can still read it without problem. This is because the human mind does not
read every letter by itself, but the word as a whole.
____________________ fucking classy.
MystryssRavynDarque
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 648 Registered: 24/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 30/11/2004 at 10:23 PM
I understand, and that is why we are able to read the writings of dyslexics
so easily. This does not however give you the power to justify your
misspellings and your lack of trying to spell and learn "because Cambridge
says so". Stop trying to make it okay and say you have a spelling problem
and work on it. Try to learn something instead of simply trying to squeeze
by in life. I am telling you this so some day in the future you might be
able to better yourself for the good of yourself and mankind. You may find
you don't want to be near the bottom rung anymore and you want to reach the
top. You won’t always have a spell checking device with you.
____________________ "People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I don't
think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is
the
experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 1/12/2004 at 02:14 AM
There won't always be a spellchecker nearby? Are you seriously suggesting
that someone may use paper again? Are you insane? Anything important enough
to make a difference in your life will be done with a spellchecker nearby,
either because it is done on a computer with a spellchecker, with the
internet, or by someone with a fucking mobile phone which, due to
predictive text, is a reasonably useful spellchecker.
Bad spelling doesnt hold you back anyway. I have proof.
Most powerful nation in the world? America.
What is the americanised way of spelling sulphur? How about colour? Should
we spell a period of time lasting sixty minutes as an hor? Do me a favor
[sic] and never underestimate the ability of people not to care that
something has one too few 'l's or the 'i' isnt before the 'e' and that goes
for people who should, like teachers.
Mono: I agree, except for the sociopathic bit. I think you give too much
credit to people there, suggesting that it may be an even slight bent
towards a psychological condition is to absolve some of the blame. I feel
that there is not enough intent, or even awareness for said dullard to
realise that there may be difficulty interpreting their spelling.
Unfeasably convoluted sentences with far too many subclauses and overly
complex syntax however..............(YerHonner, i plead not guilty).
[Edited on 1/12/2004 by W0rmW00d]
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
ok... yes, america has the highest incidence of illiterace, and yes, our
fucking educational system sucks... but you are making a blanket statement
that implies that all the stupid people are in america...
there are just as many stupid fuckers in every other country as there are
america... just look in the news... Fuck... germans and david hasselhof is
proof to me ofan antire country of dumbfucks...
you, honestly, cannot know what a place is like and what its people are
like until you live there... I gather from your posts that you are not
american... so untill you've seen our stupidity first hand, i recommend you
stop bashing it... I, personally, am tired of hearing "america is
______________"... get a new song... rhetoric is meaningless
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 1/12/2004 at 03:39 AM
When it comes right down to it, people are _______. Americans are just
highly visible, and thus an easy target. There are idiots and fucktards
everywhere. As well as intelligent, educated people. You can't make a
blanket statement to cover an entire nation. The only accurate statement
one can make about Americans is that they are Americans, i.e., living in
the country called the United States of America. Beyond that, it's
entirely up to the individual.
Anyone who has a mind to learn will learn, regardless of the poor quality
of their educational system. And anyone who has a mind to remain ignorant
will remain ignorant, again regardless of the excellent quality of their
educational system. As for the average who just go with the flow, well,
last I checked, things generally flow downwards, no matter where you
live.
Perhaps America does tend to be the land of the dumb and the home of the
ignorant, but that only makes the few who take the time to educate
themselves all the more outstanding. An American has to fight harder to
get to that level than someone whose nation crams learning and
understanding efficiently down their gullet. When we learn, we have
ourselves to credit. It must suck to have to share the credit with an
educational system that was set up for you.
Anyway, Wormwood, hour keeps its "u" because it is pronounced OWER.
Color/colour is not pronounced COLOWER, nor is favor/favour pronounced
FAVOWER. I was not around when the American spelling of these words was
officially changed to drop the "u", nor would I have supported it. I
personally like the quirky, illogical spellings that run so rampant in the
English language. I think it's one of its main beauties (as well as one of
its main frustrations, as anyone learning it as a second language will tell
you.) But, since I am living in America, I spell things the American way.
It would be as silly for me to ape the original British English spellings
as it would be for me to ape a British accent. Even though there is much
to be ashamed of in the title of American, that is what I am, by the grace
of my wandering forefathers, and I would rather be that than an American
pretending I were British.
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
MystryssRavynDarque
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 648 Registered: 24/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 1/12/2004 at 09:12 AM
Schizo and Feral: You two totally rocked with those comments. Not that
you don't generally, but that was wonderful.
____________________ "People always say what we are looking for is a meaning for life…I
don't
/>
think that's what we're looking for. I think what we're looking for is
the
experience of being alive." -Joseph Campbell
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 1/12/2004 at 06:38 PM
pale-face: When praising the benefits of a spellcheck program, you
illustrated its inherent weakness (I'm not sure if you did that as a joke
or not). "Miss" and "spelt" are both perfectly acceptable English words,
but together they are only homonyms with, and not replacements for, the
English word "misspelled" (or, if you are feeling archaic, "misspelt").
It's up to the human behind the spellcheck program to spot the
difference.
W0rmW00d: I was not trying to contribute to the cult of victims out there.
What I meant when I described the situation as sociopathic was that people
who refuse to correct their bad habits do not see the value in doing so
because they do not recognise that other people have independent existence.
Others are like televisions or computers and are here exclusively for
their benefit. "Shouldn't others have to be the ones to change to
accomodate me?" I can not recall if the inability to recognise the
independent existence of others is symptomatic of sociopathy or
psychopathy. In any event, anyone who thinks so poorly of me or so highly
of themselves that they feel they are above any form of self-improvement is
not someone with whom I am going to waste my time. Even if they are a
"victim".
feral: Countering groundless American bashing with groundless German
bashing? I expected better from you. I happen to think very, very highly
of the way Germany does its business and I think that David Hasselhoff
seems to be doing very well for himself regardless of your opinion of him.
Schiz: I did not mean to suggest that "anyone who has a mind to learn will
learn, regardless of the poor quality of their educational system" when I
said that Koko the mountain gorilla is able to type comprehensibly. Koko
was also taught. There is an anti-intellectualism at work in the States
these days (and not in the other countries I have been to... so yes, I
meant that to be directed) which is distrustful of the formally educated.
While I do not agree that a formal credential is necessarily any indication
of anything except one's ability to pay for it (by hook or by crook in most
cases), I think that this suspicion of educational institutions is harmful.
In almost every totalitarian regime in human history, the first ones who
are targeted to be eliminated are the formally educated. When
anti-intellectualism becomes internalised by the people (I have heard
people proudly and fallaciously promote the myth that Albert Einstein only
had a sixth grade formal education), then a repressive government has done
its job.
~M.
____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 1/12/2004 at 11:14 PM
I did not say that America as a nation is stupid. I said that there was
collective bad spelling and that it had not held the US back from becoming
the most powerful nation in the world as a counter argument to MRD saying
that bad spelling would hold pale-face (or anyone) back.
I did go on to imply that all bad spellers were stupid, but it was not
really the intention to make the logical extention thar americans were all
stupid. I should have been more clear, because it cannot possibly be said
that a person who has been taught to spell in a certain way is stupid for
spelling in that way, e.g. Sulfur. I really meant that someone who
consistently gets the spelling of many words wrong is stupid, for not
realising if/when they see the word correctly written elsewhere and, if
they don't see it written elsewhere, for not reading enough.
So apologies for that, although much of the evidence I have ever seen has
indicated huge levels of idiocy in America riding alongside the brilliant
minds, as you yourselves admit. I try not to make uninformed blanket
statements when I am making an actual point rather than amusing myself with
sarcasm and rhetoric, which, Feral, I feel is far from meaningless and
whithout which we would have no great writing or speaking.
Schizo, hour as an example was not really meant to be serious, but I
suppose I made it seem so by including it with my serious examples.
Mono: Pretty sure its sociopathy which cannot recognise the existence of
other sentiences. Again I partially agree with your point, 'anyone who
thinks so poorly of me or so highly of themselves that they feel they are
above any form of self-improvement is not someone with whom I am going to
waste my time' but I still would argue that on the whole people do not
realise that there is improvement to be made, and may well make that
improvement if their mistakes were just pointed out to them instead of left
to fester.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/12/2004 at 03:28 AM
Actually, Mono, I did not have Koko the Gorilla in mind when I made that
statement.
And it is true that those who want to learn will find a way, even without
formal education, while those who do not want to learn, won't, even if they
attend the finest universities.
Look at all the idiots who go to first class colleges and party their
opportunities away.
However, one with the mind to learn will certainly find their path to
learning much easier if they have the opportunity to attend a fine
institution of learning. Some people don't have that opportunity, however,
and if they can acheive education on their own, then they are to be highly
commended. It takes a lot of drive and hard work to search out one's
mental food, rather than have it placed before them, nicely prepared, on a
daily basis. And those who learn to teach themselves have an advantage or
two over others - they don't spend the rest of their lives trying to pay
off their college debt, and they have learned something more valuable than
just a collection of facts - they have learned to teach themselves.
All this having been said, I long for the opportunity to pursue higher
education. I just plain don't have the time for it. But someday - even if
I have to wait until my daughter graduates from high school (I hope not!).
Even the time and energy to just sit down with a book and learn by myself
would be nice.
And Wormwood - I, too, was not trying to engage in a hugely serious debate
over the American spelling issue, at least as in regard to the difference
between hour/hor and colour/color. But I am very serious about my deep
seated hatred for the spell-as-it-sounds tendency in this country. I abhor
lite and brite and nite and luv and all their ilk. Perhaps, if their
spelling is ever officially changed in this country, I shall rebel and
always spell them the old way. However, I grew up with color and flavor.
I suppose I could make an issue over them, but why? If we really wanted to
get all original in our English, we could revert to the times when there
were no official spellings of anything. I could spell colour as culor or
collor or just about anything else, as long as you could remotely guess at
the meaning. That's probably where the original "u" came from, anyway.
Unfortunately, if I did that, I would just get accused of poor spelling,
which would be a shame, since spelling has always been a strong point of
mine.
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
WormWood: I call bullshit... you, in as many words,
prettymuch did say that... and if itwasnot your intent, choose your words
more carefully beecause all over the forums that is the impression you have
given... and by the fact that more than one person jumped you for it, it is
not my tendency to see the worst in everyone that made that impression...
My point it you have made statements over and again that seem inherently
anti-american without any proof. Your statements have been consistent with
the baseless continental rhetoric that has been all over Europe for years.
You may not have seen it, but it has been seen by many here... and this,
personally, where I have drawn the line...
number two... my spelling, as a general rule is abhorent. There are reasons
for it... none of these reasons is that I am stupid. It is possible for an
individual to be a genius and not be able to spell at all. As for
education, the system here sucks, and I ahve commented on why (the american
education association stated "our goal is not to educate america's yougth,
but to change them, remake them in our own image.") But education does not
make intelligence... I cite Einstein as an example... dislexic, unable to
spell well, 6th grade education, and a fucking genius... i know for a fact
that I am not stupid, and yet I cannot spell either...
Mono: you wound me... though I guess the fault is not
mine for not labelling the joke as such... "Fuck... germans and david
hasselhof is proof to me ofan antire country of dumbfucks..." - that
statement was intended as a citation with humor and irony... mea culpa for
lack of exposition to reveal the sarcstic nature of the comment...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Abbadon
Fanatic
Posts: 499 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:08 PM
Mwahahaha. Look what I have created!
____________________ Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:44 PM
feral: Sorry I missed the irony in the Germany statements. My bad. Now, I
just have to say...
ALBERT EINSTEIN WAS AWARDED A PhD BY THE POLYTECHNIC UNIVERSITY IN
ZURICH, SWITZERLAND BEFORE EXPOUNDING UPON THE SPECIAL AND GENERAL THEORIES
OF RELATIVITY IN 1905! The only people who continue to promote this
blatant lie about Einstein only having a sixth grade education are people
with a chip on their shoulders about Universities. It is insulting to
people who do have degrees and only promotes an anti-intellectual
atmosphere... and we have the Bush administration for that already, thank
you.
To my knowledge, nobody has questioned your intelligence and I am not sure
why you are defending it. I will mention, though, that I have noticed a
direct correlation between how profoundly stupid a person is and how
persistently they crow about how smart they are. You've got nothing to
prove here.
Abbadon: Isn't it exhausting to be that snide all the time?
~M.
____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
Abbadon
Fanatic
Posts: 499 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:50 PM
I get by.
____________________ Light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known.
Mono: sorry... was not aware of that... I have a reference that will be
getting tossed after I ream the publishers... may I get a citation on that
so I can back it up? and I am making a point with the whole intelligence
thing... WW as put forth the opinion that bad spelling and grammar are
inherent signs of stupidity... I am shoing an exception.. and when using
the scientific method an exception keeps things in the realm of theory...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 2/12/2004 at 08:57 PM
feral: I generally balk at using web sites in a bibliography (firstly,
because they are not peer-reviewed and therefore, anyone can find anything
to suit their purposes... and secondly because you can run a google search
on a biography as easily as I can), but since I feel I may have been a bit
on the harsh side lately... I'll throw you a bone here. Try http://www.phy.hr/~dpaar/fizicari/xeinstei.html
Make sure you actually read it all the way through and don't simply stop at
the point where he left elementary (which might be where this stupid myth
comes from originally). He was awarded his PhD in 1905 from Polytechnic
University in Zurich and qualified for the position of lecturer at the
University of Bern in 1908.
But even without reading a biography, common sense should dictate that the
story of a 6th grade educated Einstein is a myth. To begin with, most
people know that he is very frequently introduced in works as
DOCTOR Albert Einstein (not an honorary title, I assure you) and most
people know that he spent many years after emigrating to the USA as
professor emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton... a
post which would require him to hold a Phd.
If you have found a publisher who is perpetuating this insulting story,
give 'em hell for me.
~M.
____________________ "I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."