I"m sorry, but I can't see how BGH's CAN'T be bad for you. I can see
normal amounts of growth hormones in meat, eaten in the RIGHT amount by
omnivores (ie: not every goddamned day) being tolerated by the body, but
the AMOUNT of meat people generally eat being cranked full of MORE
hormones? Please! Don't let me even go into MILK. NOBODY should be
drinking milk (or any of it's products) after infancy, LET ALONE the milk
of another animal. As I have said over and over, a cow isn't a soda
fountain, it's not a treat wagon on hooves, it produces a body fluid with
the sole purpose of GROWING BABY COWS, not baby or adult humans. You want
to talk hormones?! Milk, from a hormone injected cow or not, is LOADED
with growth hormones, because milk makes BABY cows into GIANT cows. Now
look at when the U.S. Govt started it's "milk" program, back in the 50's
and 60's, you know, three servings a day yadda yadda, and then the
increasing incline of milk product consumption by american's, mostly
children. Now look at the childhood obesity rate. THAT has steadily gone
up and up and up since it was instigated. KIDS ARE FAT. Kids are FAT
because their parents are told that if they don't drink milk, their bones
won't grow, they won't be strong, they'll be sickly, that it's HEALTHY.
Their kids live off milk, cheese, and hamburgers. Nobody mentions that
there is more readily absorbable calcium (and iron) in a cup of spinach
than in a cup of cow's milk and with NONE of the hormones and cholesterol
and fats and gross shit that's in it.
*sigh*
I have to go to work. I'll check back later.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
AACTUALLY... let us discard the one contended point... my other two are
more than enough for a decisive argument...
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 09:42 AM
Shade - You have a specific problem, this is unfortunate in that it
ruins your enjoyment of the meat. and a bit of advice about the nasty
saliva thing
is to use mouthwash and brush your teeth. similarly and allergy is not
really
a cogent contribution to the debate. it adresses none of the points that i
made.
why would ou give a shit about the wild free life of an animal you are
going
to eat? it does not really make sense and is beside the point anyway
because
these people are NOT vegetarians.
is there a problem with sourcing meat? free range farming anyone? I often
buy my
meat from a butchers which overlooks the farm. i see the cows wandering
around their
feilds, living the same life they would if there wasnt a fence around them.
before
you think 'aha ive got him' or something; this meat is cheaper and it isnt
hard to find
a decent butcher who will tell you where the meat came from, alternatively
more and more
supermarkets now stock free range meat.
as for intelligent dieters. some fat, fine. all fat, Why? meat contains
things we need
in it. health issues are pretty much negated to the level of 'background
radiation' by
eating in moderation. its only sensible.
the hypocrite bit i agree with. they were the reason i got irritated when i
was writing
the original peice and why it came out seeming more of an insult rather
than a rational
attempt to debate.
ok. true, it is to a large degree a matter of opinion. that was mine. quorn
is like insipid
pork and beancurd is just... well its gooey nothingness. i enjoy flavouring
my food as much
as the next man. actually, when referring to men probably more! but fake
meat is the only
thing that i find added flavour actually necessary too, rather than a way
of adding variety.
Merry_Widow - Is a response not the point of a post on a forum site? the
discussion of the
'many possible reasons' was the point of my 'narrow minded' rambling, and
if a bad
spelling is the only specific thing you can find wrong with my piece then i
feel i did well.
Feralucce - The same thing that gives you the right to call me out for it.
Nothing. See
below for my reasons.
I know i did not encounter that here. i posted here because i felt this
would be a good place
to debate it, and to a large extent was proved right. it has generated a
fair amount of response
and some interesting ones, like yours.
artificial evolution has been a facet of our farming since before we
understood it. similarly
we grow stronger and hardier crops, which means the extinction of some of
the smaller plants
and creatures that used to flourish alongside them, but are now pushed
aside, and are
killed by pesticides and such. this is not seen as a reason to not eat
crops.
the use of things like bovine growth hormone are the reason that there is a
big kick towards
non-gm and product free food. its a reason not to eat those products, but
it is easier and
easier to find their hormone free alternative than ever. indeed our
eugenics has made a cow
that would not survive without our keeping them. why exactly is this a bad
thing? is this
ethics? because they are helpless we shouldnt do things to them. surely
this has been why
we have done things to things for countless years. i think that unless you
are going to eschew
all of the society we have that was built upon exploitation of our apparent
superiority
then it is a bogus argument.
what is hot topic? i know that is sort of being arsey, but also, what is
it?
Callei - Your school gave you grades based on spelling and grammar rather
than content?
this must be why you failed to realise that the reason my post took the
format it did
was that this is the most efficient argument form.
Feralucce - Pretention seems to be what this site is built upon.
i like that article, and i was right. actual abuse isn't what this site is
supposed to be
about, it should be about the debate. i would hope that people do not feel
that just because
i dont agree with them i am directly insulting them, in the manner of
someone who has said
'fuck off' to me. or who tells me that i just copied and pasted a school
paper. i dont expect
coddled. i would be disappointed if i was.
bettie_x - that people eat too much meat and get unhealthy is not a reason
to not eat meat
at all. it is a reason for people to cut down on the meat they eat.
what do you think that cows would do if freed? sweep majestically across
the plains?
how about sheep? all ive ever seen them do in the wild is stand around. and
eat
.
all ive ever seen them do in captivity is...stand around. and eat.
if you do not like the 'emotional, mental, and physical torture' of one
farming method
then sounrce your meat better as described above.
do you honestly think that your actions do not directly effect suffering
within or without
the borders of your country? the meat industry is not your fault or your
doing either.
when you buy a teeshirt that has been made in a sweatshop you directly
affect the situation
in the same way as i do when i buy porkchops. when you use electricity you
are directly
affecting that situation too. ditto oil products, ditto microwaves. ditto
every fucking
that has any negative effect.
animals have plenty of vocal supporters. and it is, in my opinion, foolish
to ignore something
just because it has a voice already. that negates the voice, thereby
rendering the issue
effectively voiceless.
a petition to prevent the governments of the world from wasting their
excess would negate
the need for a radical reallocation of resources with regards to current
farming techniques.
also there are many environmental issues with regards the farming of crops
as well as the
farming of livestock. it would be different not better.
go on if you want. i would.
dont eat ketchup. buy natural butter. its kinda white. my hamburger is made
from mince beef
by me. i like my chips unsalted. marinade is an optional extra and i find
dry meat delicious.
im doing nothing that is special. thats why i dont give myself an -ism. i
am living free
i wanted to discuss this.
shade - will i ever be able to make a post without an immediate retort to
the tune of
'you are abbadon'? because these are often totally besides the point.
i think i covered everything. i tried at least.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 01:57 PM
I'm kinda jumping in at the end of this so I'll probably repeat a little,
but I'll try not to.
You said that there are problems growing crops as well as with raising
livestock. That's true. But it takes a whole lot more land and energy to
grow that animal than it does to just grow the crops. Why feed the cow when
you can feed yourself instead? Also it is a foolish argument. Just because
we cannot prevent harm from everything doesn't mean that its okay to kill.
We are still obligated to at least minimize our impact.
____________________ Piggy's got the Conch!
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 02:19 PM
agricultural land is not something that is in particularly short supply
though. i disagree with the premise that it is not ok to kill, and why
minimalise the impact you make? it is all just fingers in the dyke. it
seems to me a lot like a conscience massage.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Shade
Fanatic
Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 02:36 PM
quote: it seems to me a lot
like a conscience massage.
What part of conscious massage is any different than mental masturbation?
That's what we're doing here. Honestly, if we ignore the combatative tone
of you initial post in this forum, there is still the continued evidence
that you are more interested in a lively debate than in either actual
information or being convinced of anything. I'm not passing jusdgement on
that, just stating a fact. That fact is that what we are doing here is pure
self agrandizement. We are here to natter on about vegetarianism, veganism
or carnivor(ism?, osity?). That is mental masturbation, it is a heartily
narcissistic act that is done for the sheer pleasure of it. As that is the
case, how is any act intended to massage one's concience in an attempt to
feel good any different? And as such, how is it valid to use that kind of
labeling as an argument in this debate?
____________________ It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me
____________________ The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 03:28 PM
shade, point conceded. it is like mental masturbation, possibly to the
extent of being synonymous. nevertheless i do not make lifestyle choices
over mental masturbation.
i would like to be persuaded, but it is true i am far more interested in
the intellectual excercise of ranting at you and then salvaging what i can
once my initial thoughts have been picked over. do not think that im not
learning here. if i could be persuaded that vegetarianism had a real point
other than to the person doing it, which is all well and good, then i would
become a vegetarian. in fact id become a vegan.
feralucce - that is probably where the fundamental differences come between
me and those im arguing with. maybe a more appropriate debate topic would
have been killing, right or wrong? or is it worth sticking your fingers in
the dyke? though i suspect the wording of the second could use a little
work...
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
I don't buy or support products made in "sweatshops".
I don't think I'm saving the world.
I never said that people shouldn't eat meat NEVER (though I would LIKE it
that way, it's never going to happen, so whatever), but just like YOU said
after I said it (and tried to sound like you said it first), they should
cut back, because the amount they eat is unhealthy. I could care less what
other people do to themselves. They can OD and drown in their own vomit
for all I care.
"and why minimalise the impact you make? it is all just fingers in the
dyke".
Oh jesus christ fucking WEPT, not another wannabe nihilist butthole....ooo
why bother fucking hell get a life, alright? Go toss some gum wrappers out
of your car window and tell your friends how "devil may care" and wild you
are. I think I see the weeping indian up ahead...he says "fuck off white
devil".
On to the 'cows sweeping across the plains if freed'. K, you sound like
the stupid idiot starbucks retard bitch who said something to me almost
exactly like that about two years ago after butting into my conversation.
The fucking cows aren't going to sweep the plains, and nobody expects them
to, so stop being stupid. If freed, as FERAL SAID EARLIER, they'd die,
because we've made them dependent on humans. They are now our
responsibility. I would like to see them out of dark, cramped, and
disgusting enclosures devoid of natural light. If they're to be
slaughtered, I'd like them to have a life prior to death outside. I'd MUCH
rather like for them to not be bred for death anymore, I'd like for them
to be pets, like my cow when I was a kid. Cows make great pets.
Meat contains things that SOME people need in it. I haven't eaten it in 7
years, and I lost a LOT of weight, got a LOT of energy, and stopped getting
sick every other week, either with migranes, colds, stomach problems,
viruses, and I smoke a half a pack a day. What is it exactly I'm missing
out on? What, all the things I can find in vegetables without the
hormones, fats, cholesterols, and god only knows what else? If I needed
it, I would be dead by now, or in extremely poor health. And I'm not.
"All I've seen them do in captivity is stand around and eat." What, you
mean like 95% of the goddamned human population?! Stand around and eat?
Oh, sorry, we have thumbs, we can sit in front of the TELEVISION and play
VIDEOGAMES and eat. Besides, they're in CAPTIVITY, STUPID, what the fuck
else is there to do while you're waiting to have your throat cut?
We shouldn't care what kind of life they have because they "cant think" and
reason, they're objects to be bought and sold and done whatever with for
our own benifit. Let them live in cages and boxes in their own filth, or
be worked to death for money or enjoyment, they're subhuman, stupid, we're
their masters. I recall that SAME opinion being held by slave owners and
certain key american political members until the goddamned 1950's. And
what about retarded people? Some have the I.Q. of a four year old child,
same as a pig. So let's keep retarded people in cages and then boil them
(most times still conscious and alert and screaming in the process) so
their skin comes off easier. I think that's a SWELL idea.
As for the whole "energy" thing, I'll give it to you straight. Until the
oil and power companies are rooted from their posts and clean energy is
allowed to be developed and made readily available to EVERYONE, I'll
continue to not leave lights on when I'm not in a room, use my woodstove
(with in mind the strict laws in my area about constantly replanting and
replenishing forests) instead of my house heater, and make as few trips in
my car as possible, and keep it tuned to keep my mileage down. I'll
continue to recycle household goods and buy things with less packaging.
Just like I've always done. I am not an "ism" either, there are just
certain idiot practices I REFUSE to contribute to.
The issue comes down to power. We have power over our enviroment and
everything in it, and people abuse that every day. There's a word for it,
it's called "specieism". Much like racism, or sexism, only instead of it
being against another human, it's against another species. I'm not better
than an animal, that's all I am, I do however have a massive advantage over
all of them. And since I don't need their bodies, since I have
ALTERNATIVES, I'll simply continue to use those. What's wrong with that?
You seem to have the MOST problem with that, that "we" prefer to use
alternatives in our diet and clothing to meat and hide. What, is it
threatening? Does it make you feel small? Or does it just make you feel
like a bigger stronger manly man to think that caring about things directly
affected by your actions other than yourself and your needs is stupid and
girlie?
I don't see animals as commodities. I choose to see them as companions,
and those that choose to vicitimise them as criminals.
Oh, and massive MASSIVE props to safeway and McDonald's. They've both
switched from factory farm animal products to "free range", and hired
independent suprise inspecting teams for all their suppliers. Bravo.
And yes, raising your "steak" does far more enviromental damage than my
Boca. So put up or shut up.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
W0rmW00d
Fanatic
Posts: 355 Registered: 5/8/2004 Status: Offline
posted on 6/8/2004 at 04:46 PM
ok then, step by step again.
do you source everything you do? in that case,
fantastic, well done. Join that tiny club of
exceptions.
i didnt ever say you thought you were saving
the world. i said you were a hipocrite if you
didn't try.
if you dont think that it matters what they do then why mention it at all?
it isnt a
pro vegetarian argument.
you haven't acually told me why it matters. you have just tried to insult
me. the weeping indian may say what he feels. why care i?
the mentin of sweeping majestically was humour, im afraid. it was used as
an argumentative technique to make it a bit more colourful, im sorry you
couldnt see that. ok, theyare our responsibility, but just because they
cannot survive is not an argument for not eating them and nothing stops you
from keeping them as a pet.
that is an individual thing brought into a general discussion, which is not
really a reason for vegetarianism to be generally right. i am truly pleased
for you, but not all people take it like that. some become sickeningly
unhealthy, like my friends dad, or my housemate. (counter-examples there,
before you start) and it is harder to find these things from veggies than
from meat. you have been lucky enough to be intelligent enough to eat
well.
did you read the rest of that sentence? all i have seen wild animals do is
the same as i have seen the captive ones do. and why not eat some of the
human population? ok, avoid the brains to avoid laughing sickness. maybe
they just dont taste good, i dont
know.
i have no problem with eating a thinking thing. convince me otherwise, i
have started another piece of pseudo-intellectual fuckwittery called Is
Morality?
some places do torture their animals in this way, true. many others are as
humane as you can be while killing something. why eschew meat totally
because of bad
apples.
ok, here we are back to the 'fingers in the dyke' thing, but if it is
something you care about then go for it, and well done. you do seem to be
one of the few true exceptions to what i was saying.
racism and sexism are totally irrational. that is why they are wrong.
specieism is bullshit. abuse of power is abuse of power. to eat animals and
to farm them makes total sense.
it does not threaten me, i just discussed it.
why would i feel small because you chose a different route?
and macho? heheh.
____________________ Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.
And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.
Yes, I do, as much as I can. Nobody avoids "bad things" 100% of the time.
I don't pretend I can, but like I said a zillion times, I'm simply doing
what I can.
How is someone a hypocrite for NOT trying to save the world? I'm not doing
it, I'm just doing my part to not make it any WORSE.
I don't care what people do because it's not my business to make them do
what I want them to do. Yeah, it'd be nice if people understood the
brutality of the factory farm, and it'd be nice if people didn't eat
animals, but I'm realistic.
As for pro-vegetarian, I'm not on some grand moral adventure. I brought it
up cuz YOU brought it up, same if someone brought it up with me. If
someone wants to know about it, I tell them. If they don't, then I leave
them alone. I'm not going to be one of those mouthy prostelitizing fucks
pushing the latest cult down someone's throat. Their life is their own,
and they'll do what they want regardless of anything I have to say.
I told you why it matters, and like I said before, I can't change anyone's
mind for them. If you don't want to see that factory farms and the animal
products industry in general torture thinking, feeling, living creatures,
then you won't.
The sweeping herds. We created them, just like we created domestic cats
and dogs. So go eat one of those. Nothing stops you from eating them.
I have stated repeatedly here and other places that vegetarianism isn't
right for everyone, that some people DO need it, and others don't. Most of
the time it's laziness.
Like I said, animals (people) stand around and eat all day too. Wild
animals (people) eat all day. Captive animals (people) sit and eat all
day. Most animals (people) if given the choice to sit and eat all day
would be QUITE happy. It's what animals (people) do. If you stick an
animal (person) in a box filled with filth, in the dark, take their babies
away at birth...they'll still eat, but they won't be happy. It's a little
thing called quality of life.
I wouldn't agree with eating human population either. I haven't eaten meat
in 7 years, I don't think it'd sit well. I'll stick with tofu, thx.
Most farms are factory farms. mom and pop rarely exists anymore anywhere.
Factory farms supply 90% of the animal products in stores and restaurants.
I've brought up free range farming quite a few times, and that it's better
than the alternative. I still choose to not eat ANY animal products or use
them because I can. To me, dead is dead.
Specieism is not bullshit. It's as bullshit to you as equality between
blacks and whites were in the 1600's at the heyday of slavery. It took
this country 400 years to get off that idiot notion, and unfortunately I
won't be alive when members of other species are treated with the same
respect to life and happiness that we afford members of our OWN species.
The reason I brought up you feeling perhaps a bit threatened by
vegetariansim is the way you presented yourself, which is, like most
hardcore self pronounced "carnivores", who at the word "vegetarian" they
wig. It's stupid, it doesn't make sense, what are you, a hippie? A
bleeding heart? "I like to kill stuff. Meat is murder and murder tastes
DELICIOUS". All because you turned down an offered hamburger, or over a
food discussion. Like a cult member who has to scream their beliefs out
loud to make THEMSELVES believe what they're saying. It's not my fault you
sound like one of them.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
Andree
Member
Posts: 112 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 8/8/2004 at 12:56 AM
Forgive me, I must rant. Low-carb diets piss me off. Once at a
diner, I saw a "meat-lovers' omelette" on the menu. The menu boasted that
this omelette was "packed with bacon, ham, and beef. Perfect for those of
you on a low-carb diet!" Evidently if I want to be healthy, I must eat
processed meats. Did anyone tell these peope that they'll gain all that
weight back once they go back to eating normal-people food? Or that instead
of checking groceries for the red A, they could get try getting off their
lazy asses? Feeding the body only fat and protein is like ripping the
insulation out of your house and burning it in your woodstove---you lose
bulk, and consume fuel, but it's dirty fuel that pollutes the system. In
the comics they joke about ordering fast-food burgers without the buns.
Turns out it's not a joke. Burger King has a low-carb menu that features
seven bunless burgers. First of all, did they need a separate menu? The
burgers are the exact same greasy beef patties, except now you don't have
any evil bread to soak up the excess grease. Second, why is Burger King
being praised for "making fast food low-carb food"? (
http://www.newstarget.com/000797.html) How amazing, how bold, how
revolutionary! Some BK bigwig takes the buns off all the burgers, makes up
a new menu, and this is somehow "real progress!" Cuz yeah, McDonalds and
Dairy Queen and Wendy's will refuse to sell you a bunless burger. It's all
Burger King's idea. Thank you, Burger King! You're a lifesaver! DOES
ANYONE REMEMBER THE FOOD PYRAMID?
(On a side note, I had to edit this cuz it turns out I've been spelling
"omelette" wrong my whole life.)
oo...the atkins diet. I've taken it upon myself to consume every low carb
idiot's carbs MYSELF. So why am I not 300lbs?
The Atkins diet is unhealthy. Period. ANY diet, where you have to check
your pee with a thingy regularly to see if you're seriously sick as a
result and don't know it and need to start "eating normally" again and FAST
can NOT be healthy.
The atkin's diet I WOULD say, is a good, SHORT TERM way to lose enough
weight for you to be able to exercise normally. For people who are very
very obese and NEED to lose weight quickly so they can begin a healthier
way of life, atkins is one of the many things out there to achieve that.
But as a LIFESTYLE? You're dead on andree, it IS like stripping the
insulation from your house and burning it. The reason the diet works is
because consuming that much fat and protein and nothing else kicks your
body into overdrive and forces it to seek the nutrients it's not getting
from your own body. It forces your system to feed off itself. That is
where the weight loss comes in, vs burning more calories than you consume.
Not to mention there are no conclusive long term studies on the effect of
the "lifestyle" and it's effects on your system. Ephederin was taken off
the market because it was killing people (those who chose to use it
unwisely) and the atkins diet has killed people (those who also used it
unwisely).
If people want a "lifestyle revolution", I've GOT it for you. No pop, no
cookies, and GET OFF YOUR ASS. I stopped drinking pop for two months and
lost 15 lbs, and I didn't alter my diet at all.
Also, veganism is a good weight loss diet. I went vegetarian when I was
17, and lost 60lbs in about 8 onths (coupled with exercise...got a job as a
prep cook) then went vegan two years later and lost another 15 in 2 months.
I dropped a total of 75lbs by just cutting out meat and dairy and eating
other healthier things. Course, I'm in my mid 20's now, and gardenburger
and whatnot make SUCH new delicious things, that some of the pushin cushin
has come back. But I'm okay with that, all I have to do is start
exercising again
[Edited on 8/8/2004 by bettie_x]
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.