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Author: Subject: Vegetate this

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 09:00 AM
I"m sorry, but I can't see how BGH's CAN'T be bad for you. I can see normal amounts of growth hormones in meat, eaten in the RIGHT amount by omnivores (ie: not every goddamned day) being tolerated by the body, but the AMOUNT of meat people generally eat being cranked full of MORE hormones? Please! Don't let me even go into MILK. NOBODY should be drinking milk (or any of it's products) after infancy, LET ALONE the milk of another animal. As I have said over and over, a cow isn't a soda fountain, it's not a treat wagon on hooves, it produces a body fluid with the sole purpose of GROWING BABY COWS, not baby or adult humans. You want to talk hormones?! Milk, from a hormone injected cow or not, is LOADED with growth hormones, because milk makes BABY cows into GIANT cows. Now look at when the U.S. Govt started it's "milk" program, back in the 50's and 60's, you know, three servings a day yadda yadda, and then the increasing incline of milk product consumption by american's, mostly children. Now look at the childhood obesity rate. THAT has steadily gone up and up and up since it was instigated. KIDS ARE FAT. Kids are FAT because their parents are told that if they don't drink milk, their bones won't grow, they won't be strong, they'll be sickly, that it's HEALTHY. Their kids live off milk, cheese, and hamburgers. Nobody mentions that there is more readily absorbable calcium (and iron) in a cup of spinach than in a cup of cow's milk and with NONE of the hormones and cholesterol and fats and gross shit that's in it.

*sigh*

I have to go to work. I'll check back later.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 09:30 AM
AACTUALLY... let us discard the one contended point... my other two are more than enough for a decisive argument...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 09:42 AM
Shade - You have a specific problem, this is unfortunate in that it
ruins your enjoyment of the meat. and a bit of advice about the nasty saliva thing
is to use mouthwash and brush your teeth. similarly and allergy is not really
a cogent contribution to the debate. it adresses none of the points that i made.
why would ou give a shit about the wild free life of an animal you are going
to eat? it does not really make sense and is beside the point anyway because
these people are NOT vegetarians.
is there a problem with sourcing meat? free range farming anyone? I often buy my
meat from a butchers which overlooks the farm. i see the cows wandering around their
feilds, living the same life they would if there wasnt a fence around them. before
you think 'aha ive got him' or something; this meat is cheaper and it isnt hard to find
a decent butcher who will tell you where the meat came from, alternatively more and more
supermarkets now stock free range meat.
as for intelligent dieters. some fat, fine. all fat, Why? meat contains things we need
in it. health issues are pretty much negated to the level of 'background radiation' by
eating in moderation. its only sensible.
the hypocrite bit i agree with. they were the reason i got irritated when i was writing
the original peice and why it came out seeming more of an insult rather than a rational
attempt to debate.
ok. true, it is to a large degree a matter of opinion. that was mine. quorn is like insipid
pork and beancurd is just... well its gooey nothingness. i enjoy flavouring my food as much
as the next man. actually, when referring to men probably more! but fake meat is the only
thing that i find added flavour actually necessary too, rather than a way of adding variety.

Merry_Widow - Is a response not the point of a post on a forum site? the discussion of the
'many possible reasons' was the point of my 'narrow minded' rambling, and if a bad
spelling is the only specific thing you can find wrong with my piece then i feel i did well.

Feralucce - The same thing that gives you the right to call me out for it. Nothing. See
below for my reasons.
I know i did not encounter that here. i posted here because i felt this would be a good place
to debate it, and to a large extent was proved right. it has generated a fair amount of response
and some interesting ones, like yours.
artificial evolution has been a facet of our farming since before we understood it. similarly
we grow stronger and hardier crops, which means the extinction of some of the smaller plants
and creatures that used to flourish alongside them, but are now pushed aside, and are
killed by pesticides and such. this is not seen as a reason to not eat crops.
the use of things like bovine growth hormone are the reason that there is a big kick towards
non-gm and product free food. its a reason not to eat those products, but it is easier and
easier to find their hormone free alternative than ever. indeed our eugenics has made a cow
that would not survive without our keeping them. why exactly is this a bad thing? is this
ethics? because they are helpless we shouldnt do things to them. surely this has been why
we have done things to things for countless years. i think that unless you are going to eschew
all of the society we have that was built upon exploitation of our apparent superiority
then it is a bogus argument.
what is hot topic? i know that is sort of being arsey, but also, what is it?

Callei - Your school gave you grades based on spelling and grammar rather than content?
this must be why you failed to realise that the reason my post took the format it did
was that this is the most efficient argument form.

Feralucce - Pretention seems to be what this site is built upon.
i like that article, and i was right. actual abuse isn't what this site is supposed to be
about, it should be about the debate. i would hope that people do not feel that just because
i dont agree with them i am directly insulting them, in the manner of someone who has said
'fuck off' to me. or who tells me that i just copied and pasted a school paper. i dont expect
coddled. i would be disappointed if i was.

bettie_x - that people eat too much meat and get unhealthy is not a reason to not eat meat
at all. it is a reason for people to cut down on the meat they eat.
what do you think that cows would do if freed? sweep majestically across the plains?
how about sheep? all ive ever seen them do in the wild is stand around. and eat
.

all ive ever seen them do in captivity is...stand around. and eat.
if you do not like the 'emotional, mental, and physical torture' of one farming method
then sounrce your meat better as described above.
do you honestly think that your actions do not directly effect suffering within or without
the borders of your country? the meat industry is not your fault or your doing either.
when you buy a teeshirt that has been made in a sweatshop you directly affect the situation
in the same way as i do when i buy porkchops. when you use electricity you are directly
affecting that situation too. ditto oil products, ditto microwaves. ditto every fucking
that has any negative effect.
animals have plenty of vocal supporters. and it is, in my opinion, foolish to ignore something
just because it has a voice already. that negates the voice, thereby rendering the issue
effectively voiceless.
a petition to prevent the governments of the world from wasting their excess would negate
the need for a radical reallocation of resources with regards to current farming techniques.
also there are many environmental issues with regards the farming of crops as well as the
farming of livestock. it would be different not better.
go on if you want. i would.
dont eat ketchup. buy natural butter. its kinda white. my hamburger is made from mince beef
by me. i like my chips unsalted. marinade is an optional extra and i find dry meat delicious.

im doing nothing that is special. thats why i dont give myself an -ism. i am living free
i wanted to discuss this.

shade - will i ever be able to make a post without an immediate retort to the tune of
'you are abbadon'? because these are often totally besides the point.

i think i covered everything. i tried at least.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 893
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 01:57 PM
I'm kinda jumping in at the end of this so I'll probably repeat a little, but I'll try not to.

You said that there are problems growing crops as well as with raising livestock. That's true. But it takes a whole lot more land and energy to grow that animal than it does to just grow the crops. Why feed the cow when you can feed yourself instead? Also it is a foolish argument. Just because we cannot prevent harm from everything doesn't mean that its okay to kill. We are still obligated to at least minimize our impact.

 

____________________
Piggy's got the Conch!

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 02:19 PM
agricultural land is not something that is in particularly short supply though. i disagree with the premise that it is not ok to kill, and why minimalise the impact you make? it is all just fingers in the dyke. it seems to me a lot like a conscience massage.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.



And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 289
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 02:36 PM
quote:
it seems to me a lot like a conscience massage.


What part of conscious massage is any different than mental masturbation? That's what we're doing here. Honestly, if we ignore the combatative tone of you initial post in this forum, there is still the continued evidence that you are more interested in a lively debate than in either actual information or being convinced of anything. I'm not passing jusdgement on that, just stating a fact. That fact is that what we are doing here is pure self agrandizement. We are here to natter on about vegetarianism, veganism or carnivor(ism?, osity?). That is mental masturbation, it is a heartily narcissistic act that is done for the sheer pleasure of it. As that is the case, how is any act intended to massage one's concience in an attempt to feel good any different? And as such, how is it valid to use that kind of labeling as an argument in this debate?

 

____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 02:59 PM
then, i am afraid... you truly don't get it

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 03:28 PM
shade, point conceded. it is like mental masturbation, possibly to the extent of being synonymous. nevertheless i do not make lifestyle choices over mental masturbation.
i would like to be persuaded, but it is true i am far more interested in the intellectual excercise of ranting at you and then salvaging what i can once my initial thoughts have been picked over. do not think that im not learning here. if i could be persuaded that vegetarianism had a real point other than to the person doing it, which is all well and good, then i would become a vegetarian. in fact id become a vegan.
feralucce - that is probably where the fundamental differences come between me and those im arguing with. maybe a more appropriate debate topic would have been killing, right or wrong? or is it worth sticking your fingers in the dyke? though i suspect the wording of the second could use a little work...

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.





And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 03:47 PM
Since you're deaf, I'll reiterate.

I don't buy or support products made in "sweatshops".
I don't think I'm saving the world.

I never said that people shouldn't eat meat NEVER (though I would LIKE it that way, it's never going to happen, so whatever), but just like YOU said after I said it (and tried to sound like you said it first), they should cut back, because the amount they eat is unhealthy. I could care less what other people do to themselves. They can OD and drown in their own vomit for all I care.

"and why minimalise the impact you make? it is all just fingers in the dyke".
Oh jesus christ fucking WEPT, not another wannabe nihilist butthole....ooo why bother fucking hell get a life, alright? Go toss some gum wrappers out of your car window and tell your friends how "devil may care" and wild you are. I think I see the weeping indian up ahead...he says "fuck off white devil".

On to the 'cows sweeping across the plains if freed'. K, you sound like the stupid idiot starbucks retard bitch who said something to me almost exactly like that about two years ago after butting into my conversation. The fucking cows aren't going to sweep the plains, and nobody expects them to, so stop being stupid. If freed, as FERAL SAID EARLIER, they'd die, because we've made them dependent on humans. They are now our responsibility. I would like to see them out of dark, cramped, and disgusting enclosures devoid of natural light. If they're to be slaughtered, I'd like them to have a life prior to death outside. I'd MUCH rather like for them to not be bred for death anymore, I'd like for them to be pets, like my cow when I was a kid. Cows make great pets.

Meat contains things that SOME people need in it. I haven't eaten it in 7 years, and I lost a LOT of weight, got a LOT of energy, and stopped getting sick every other week, either with migranes, colds, stomach problems, viruses, and I smoke a half a pack a day. What is it exactly I'm missing out on? What, all the things I can find in vegetables without the hormones, fats, cholesterols, and god only knows what else? If I needed it, I would be dead by now, or in extremely poor health. And I'm not.

"All I've seen them do in captivity is stand around and eat." What, you mean like 95% of the goddamned human population?! Stand around and eat? Oh, sorry, we have thumbs, we can sit in front of the TELEVISION and play VIDEOGAMES and eat. Besides, they're in CAPTIVITY, STUPID, what the fuck else is there to do while you're waiting to have your throat cut?

We shouldn't care what kind of life they have because they "cant think" and reason, they're objects to be bought and sold and done whatever with for our own benifit. Let them live in cages and boxes in their own filth, or be worked to death for money or enjoyment, they're subhuman, stupid, we're their masters. I recall that SAME opinion being held by slave owners and certain key american political members until the goddamned 1950's. And what about retarded people? Some have the I.Q. of a four year old child, same as a pig. So let's keep retarded people in cages and then boil them (most times still conscious and alert and screaming in the process) so their skin comes off easier. I think that's a SWELL idea.

As for the whole "energy" thing, I'll give it to you straight. Until the oil and power companies are rooted from their posts and clean energy is allowed to be developed and made readily available to EVERYONE, I'll continue to not leave lights on when I'm not in a room, use my woodstove (with in mind the strict laws in my area about constantly replanting and replenishing forests) instead of my house heater, and make as few trips in my car as possible, and keep it tuned to keep my mileage down. I'll continue to recycle household goods and buy things with less packaging. Just like I've always done. I am not an "ism" either, there are just certain idiot practices I REFUSE to contribute to.

The issue comes down to power. We have power over our enviroment and everything in it, and people abuse that every day. There's a word for it, it's called "specieism". Much like racism, or sexism, only instead of it being against another human, it's against another species. I'm not better than an animal, that's all I am, I do however have a massive advantage over all of them. And since I don't need their bodies, since I have ALTERNATIVES, I'll simply continue to use those. What's wrong with that? You seem to have the MOST problem with that, that "we" prefer to use alternatives in our diet and clothing to meat and hide. What, is it threatening? Does it make you feel small? Or does it just make you feel like a bigger stronger manly man to think that caring about things directly affected by your actions other than yourself and your needs is stupid and girlie?

I don't see animals as commodities. I choose to see them as companions, and those that choose to vicitimise them as criminals.

Oh, and massive MASSIVE props to safeway and McDonald's. They've both switched from factory farm animal products to "free range", and hired independent suprise inspecting teams for all their suppliers. Bravo.

And yes, raising your "steak" does far more enviromental damage than my Boca. So put up or shut up.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 04:46 PM
ok then, step by step again.

do you source everything you do? in that case,
fantastic, well done. Join that tiny club of
exceptions.

i didnt ever say you thought you were saving
the world. i said you were a hipocrite if you
didn't try.

if you dont think that it matters what they do then why mention it at all? it isnt a
pro vegetarian argument.

you haven't acually told me why it matters. you have just tried to insult me. the weeping indian may say what he feels. why care i?

the mentin of sweeping majestically was humour, im afraid. it was used as an argumentative technique to make it a bit more colourful, im sorry you couldnt see that. ok, theyare our responsibility, but just because they cannot survive is not an argument for not eating them and nothing stops you from keeping them as a pet.

that is an individual thing brought into a general discussion, which is not really a reason for vegetarianism to be generally right. i am truly pleased for you, but not all people take it like that. some become sickeningly unhealthy, like my friends dad, or my housemate. (counter-examples there, before you start) and it is harder to find these things from veggies than from meat. you have been lucky enough to be intelligent enough to eat well.

did you read the rest of that sentence? all i have seen wild animals do is the same as i have seen the captive ones do. and why not eat some of the human population? ok, avoid the brains to avoid laughing sickness. maybe they just dont taste good, i dont
know.

i have no problem with eating a thinking thing. convince me otherwise, i have started another piece of pseudo-intellectual fuckwittery called Is Morality?
some places do torture their animals in this way, true. many others are as humane as you can be while killing something. why eschew meat totally because of bad
apples.

ok, here we are back to the 'fingers in the dyke' thing, but if it is something you care about then go for it, and well done. you do seem to be one of the few true exceptions to what i was saying.

racism and sexism are totally irrational. that is why they are wrong. specieism is bullshit. abuse of power is abuse of power. to eat animals and to farm them makes total sense.
it does not threaten me, i just discussed it.
why would i feel small because you chose a different route?
and macho? heheh.

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.







And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/8/2004 at 07:07 PM
Alright, step by step in turn.

Yes, I do, as much as I can. Nobody avoids "bad things" 100% of the time. I don't pretend I can, but like I said a zillion times, I'm simply doing what I can.

How is someone a hypocrite for NOT trying to save the world? I'm not doing it, I'm just doing my part to not make it any WORSE.

I don't care what people do because it's not my business to make them do what I want them to do. Yeah, it'd be nice if people understood the brutality of the factory farm, and it'd be nice if people didn't eat animals, but I'm realistic.

As for pro-vegetarian, I'm not on some grand moral adventure. I brought it up cuz YOU brought it up, same if someone brought it up with me. If someone wants to know about it, I tell them. If they don't, then I leave them alone. I'm not going to be one of those mouthy prostelitizing fucks pushing the latest cult down someone's throat. Their life is their own, and they'll do what they want regardless of anything I have to say.

I told you why it matters, and like I said before, I can't change anyone's mind for them. If you don't want to see that factory farms and the animal products industry in general torture thinking, feeling, living creatures, then you won't.

The sweeping herds. We created them, just like we created domestic cats and dogs. So go eat one of those. Nothing stops you from eating them.

I have stated repeatedly here and other places that vegetarianism isn't right for everyone, that some people DO need it, and others don't. Most of the time it's laziness.

Like I said, animals (people) stand around and eat all day too. Wild animals (people) eat all day. Captive animals (people) sit and eat all day. Most animals (people) if given the choice to sit and eat all day would be QUITE happy. It's what animals (people) do. If you stick an animal (person) in a box filled with filth, in the dark, take their babies away at birth...they'll still eat, but they won't be happy. It's a little thing called quality of life.

I wouldn't agree with eating human population either. I haven't eaten meat in 7 years, I don't think it'd sit well. I'll stick with tofu, thx.

Most farms are factory farms. mom and pop rarely exists anymore anywhere. Factory farms supply 90% of the animal products in stores and restaurants. I've brought up free range farming quite a few times, and that it's better than the alternative. I still choose to not eat ANY animal products or use them because I can. To me, dead is dead.

Specieism is not bullshit. It's as bullshit to you as equality between blacks and whites were in the 1600's at the heyday of slavery. It took this country 400 years to get off that idiot notion, and unfortunately I won't be alive when members of other species are treated with the same respect to life and happiness that we afford members of our OWN species.

The reason I brought up you feeling perhaps a bit threatened by vegetariansim is the way you presented yourself, which is, like most hardcore self pronounced "carnivores", who at the word "vegetarian" they wig. It's stupid, it doesn't make sense, what are you, a hippie? A bleeding heart? "I like to kill stuff. Meat is murder and murder tastes DELICIOUS". All because you turned down an offered hamburger, or over a food discussion. Like a cult member who has to scream their beliefs out loud to make THEMSELVES believe what they're saying. It's not my fault you sound like one of them.

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 10:29 PM
http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/fatkins.html?

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/8/2004 at 11:55 PM
thank you for that

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 

Member




Posts: 112
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/8/2004 at 12:56 AM
Forgive me, I must rant. Low-carb diets piss me off. Once at a diner, I saw a "meat-lovers' omelette" on the menu. The menu boasted that this omelette was "packed with bacon, ham, and beef. Perfect for those of you on a low-carb diet!" Evidently if I want to be healthy, I must eat processed meats. Did anyone tell these peope that they'll gain all that weight back once they go back to eating normal-people food? Or that instead of checking groceries for the red A, they could get try getting off their lazy asses? Feeding the body only fat and protein is like ripping the insulation out of your house and burning it in your woodstove---you lose bulk, and consume fuel, but it's dirty fuel that pollutes the system. In the comics they joke about ordering fast-food burgers without the buns. Turns out it's not a joke. Burger King has a low-carb menu that features seven bunless burgers. First of all, did they need a separate menu? The burgers are the exact same greasy beef patties, except now you don't have any evil bread to soak up the excess grease. Second, why is Burger King being praised for "making fast food low-carb food"? ( http://www.newstarget.com/000797.html) How amazing, how bold, how revolutionary! Some BK bigwig takes the buns off all the burgers, makes up a new menu, and this is somehow "real progress!" Cuz yeah, McDonalds and Dairy Queen and Wendy's will refuse to sell you a bunless burger. It's all Burger King's idea. Thank you, Burger King! You're a lifesaver! DOES ANYONE REMEMBER THE FOOD PYRAMID?

(On a side note, I had to edit this cuz it turns out I've been spelling "omelette" wrong my whole life.)

[Edited on 8/8/2004 by Andree]

 

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  posted on 8/8/2004 at 12:35 PM
oo...the atkins diet. I've taken it upon myself to consume every low carb idiot's carbs MYSELF. So why am I not 300lbs?

The Atkins diet is unhealthy. Period. ANY diet, where you have to check your pee with a thingy regularly to see if you're seriously sick as a result and don't know it and need to start "eating normally" again and FAST can NOT be healthy.

The atkin's diet I WOULD say, is a good, SHORT TERM way to lose enough weight for you to be able to exercise normally. For people who are very very obese and NEED to lose weight quickly so they can begin a healthier way of life, atkins is one of the many things out there to achieve that. But as a LIFESTYLE? You're dead on andree, it IS like stripping the insulation from your house and burning it. The reason the diet works is because consuming that much fat and protein and nothing else kicks your body into overdrive and forces it to seek the nutrients it's not getting from your own body. It forces your system to feed off itself. That is where the weight loss comes in, vs burning more calories than you consume. Not to mention there are no conclusive long term studies on the effect of the "lifestyle" and it's effects on your system. Ephederin was taken off the market because it was killing people (those who chose to use it unwisely) and the atkins diet has killed people (those who also used it unwisely).

If people want a "lifestyle revolution", I've GOT it for you. No pop, no cookies, and GET OFF YOUR ASS. I stopped drinking pop for two months and lost 15 lbs, and I didn't alter my diet at all.

Also, veganism is a good weight loss diet. I went vegetarian when I was 17, and lost 60lbs in about 8 onths (coupled with exercise...got a job as a prep cook) then went vegan two years later and lost another 15 in 2 months. I dropped a total of 75lbs by just cutting out meat and dairy and eating other healthier things. Course, I'm in my mid 20's now, and gardenburger and whatnot make SUCH new delicious things, that some of the pushin cushin has come back. But I'm okay with that, all I have to do is start exercising again

[Edited on 8/8/2004 by bettie_x]

 

____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.

 
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