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Anya
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/5/2004 at 06:35 PM |
As we know today, women are still expected to be submissive and less
successful compared to men. The socially accepted gender roles are slowly
fading (thanks to successful feminists and their idols), but the stigma is
still there...and likely will be for a while. Half of the Mother aspects
and all of the Crone aspects of women are looked down upon, for they
[obviously] make women as successful as men.
I am not sure if anyone has discussed this before, but has anyone ever
thought of the "submissive and less successful" image as a strength? For
one, it can serve as a mask that prevents people from seeing your true
strengths, which can make you more cunning when taking action. Secondly,
can it not make the other person foolish when they find their selves
defeated by someone that is generally considered "lesser." Whether for
better or worse, the humiliation is greater when someone underestimates
another.
Just some food for thought...I am wanting to bring out some debate and
maybe some other ways that a gender stereotype can serve as a
strength...for both men and women alike.
I don't see it as a weakness except when it comes to law and order, but for
the most part, "No one can make you inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt
*steps down from the stage*
[Edited on 5/2/2004 by Anya]
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Merry_Widow
Fanatic   Posts: 598 Registered: 24/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/5/2004 at 08:34 PM |
| If you can't be cunning without showing your true strengths, then you
aren't cunning at all. ____________________
Okay, dazzle me.
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/5/2004 at 10:25 PM |
Whatever man, you can be both. I always use stereotypes to my advantage,
and even further advantageous is at the same time being able to spot OTHER
people doing the same thing to you and then double whammy it back on them
when they're not looking.
You could show your "true colors" all you want and some people just refuse
to acknowledge them and still think of you in your "proper gender role".
THOSE are the people who I do that to, because they deserve it. It's much
like fudging the first few hands of poker to get the chance to cue in on
the other player's ticks and habits towards the hands they recieve. They
may be embarassed for "the poor fool" in the beginning, but they're wary of
you when you walk out the door with all their money at the end of the
night. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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Monolycus
Fanatic  Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/5/2004 at 10:39 PM |
Okay, maybe I am reading this wrong, but are we discussing the merits of
being deceptive and manipulative here...? Just for a lark, maybe men and
women should do the best they can do, try not to harm or exploit others,
and let people think about them what they will.
~M. ____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 06:05 AM |
I suppose it can be looked as deceptive, but I see it more as the
aggressor's fault for underestimating the person just because of their
gender stereotype. While I mentioned the general female stereotypes, I'm
interested in what one can mention about the male stereotypes. 
I see deception being different from being underestimated, but in some
cases, yes - there can be deception involved.
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 06:14 AM |
By the way, I post this for a lot of people look at gender stereotypes as a
bad thing. I want to make a topic based on finding the merits in them.
The
advantages can be manipulative or just plain-out silence then "WHAM!".
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callei
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 07:28 AM |
Mental judo with the ignorant and brain dead doesnt necessarily messing
with someone else's stereotype perceptions.
People use stereotypes to make the world more understandable when they are
busy. a Stereotype in and of itself inst a bad thing. Sexism on the other
hand is, or racism, or ageism, or all sorts of other -isms. But a
stereotype is just a set of socially normal expectations about a person
that visibly fits a pattern. These let you figure out things like "hey that
toddler just wandered into the street by it self!" fast enough to laugh
when it gets hit by a car, or "hey! that was a blind person!" when someone
bumps you the sidewalk.
in the usual use of the word, we use stereotype to mean a set of behaviors
or beliefs about a group of people with whom we have had little or no
contact. And yes we can all trade on the power of the stereotype, and we
all do. and we all have our whole lives.
The stereotype of the precocious child has kept every single one of us out
of trouble at least once. The stereotype of the loner, sex fiend, smart
kid, only child, middle child, good student, bad student, freak, cool, and
so many more have aided each and every one of us sooo many times that we
dont even realize.
Fucking with the social roles of stereotypes is a good thing; it lets you
learn about the stereotypes that people perceive you to fit and lets you
chooose which of those traits, if any, you want to have. Just be clear in
your own mind that a stereotype and an -ism are different. People are
always looking how someone else doesnt fit the stereotype and use those
differences to start to get to know you the person. people with an -ism
dont care if you fit a stereotype or not, they hate you for some specific
thing about you that they fear. they wont change thier mind about you no
matter how unlike a stereotype you are because they arent worried about
things that you do, just things that you are (your age, your skin color,
your sex, your sexuality).
I always want to get all preachy about the differences between stereotypes
(pattern recognition) and -isms (hate bases on fear of the other person's
genes/birth) because they are actually very very different and i tend to
feel that as long as we are all bashing stereotypes, we arent working to
try to help those poor ignorant fear-ridden fools with -isms. ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
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Shade
Fanatic  Posts: 289 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:11 AM |
I'm just curious Anya, who is the 'we' in your opening statement of "As we
know today,..." I know of no such thing about women or any group.
Oh, and a soapbox does not a stage make. ____________________
It is only through the lack of sex that humanity derives the need for an
all encompassing blind love. And in that moment of extreme horniness with
no relief in sight, in that moment can be found the birth of religion.
-Me
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Zero
Fanatic  Posts: 459 Registered: 15/2/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:29 AM |
the one thing i hate about stereotypes (ya know, besides being put into the
"disgruntled black man" stereotype or the "dangerous black man" stereotype)
is that so many people seem to fit their stereotypes....completely.....when
i get to know someone i figure that they aren't a complete fictional
character...but sometimes it really is them....sometimes that's a good
thing sometimes it's a bad thing....i just hate it when it's a bad
thing...
I'm sure we've all ran into these types of people before and all have our
stries to tell..so i won't bore you with mine own.
i know that was a little off subject...and i apologize for it. ____________________
"It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak." ~
The Sandman, Dream Country
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Merry_Widow
Fanatic Posts: 598 Registered: 24/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 10:41 AM |
My beef about stereotypes and -isms and people who use them is when someone
doesn't have enough "umph" on their own to get aywhere without them. I
really hate it when I see people falling into the roles they think other
people are ssing them in so that they can get what they want.
If someone puts you into a negative category based on your color,
socioeconomic background or your gender, that's their problem, and they'll
get schooled somewhere down the line (hopefull). But I cannot stand it when
people put themselves in those roles on purpose. ____________________
Okay, dazzle me.
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Squire-of-Gothos
Fanatic  Posts: 206 Registered: 1/1/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 03:10 PM |
| Yeah, stereotypes are usually there for a reason; people do in fact fit
into rhem. But sexism, and anya, thats what your bringing up, is bad. And
being comfortable with it, but using it to your advantage, does nothing but
prolong it's reign. Not a good idea, in my opinion, but I'm not a woman, so
maybe I'm not in the know. ____________________
“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard.
Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat
anything.”
Faulkner
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/5/2004 at 08:15 PM |
I was referring to the majority of people.
Yeah, in a way I bring up the sexism...and I do not necessarily agree with
it, but like everything in life, there are pros and cons. The sexist part
of the gender stereotype can be very misleading, but at the same time,
sometimes that mislead can screw the sexist individual due to them
underestimating the sex.
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Dolorosa
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 856 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 3/5/2004 at 09:06 PM |
If there is something you want, or need to do...then you should use all the
tools you can to get it, people can be pretty fucking clever. Stereotypes
of any sort can be pretty handy...really handy in the right situation and
vital in a few rare ones...
Just don't forget to bust 'em up with everything else eventually. ____________________
In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King
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pheno
Coward   Posts: 1 Registered: 5/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/5/2004 at 11:37 PM |
Stereotypes. A Short story.
I struggle to see the difference between sterotypes and -isms. Ignorance
breeds fear, yet also has the distinct ability to lump individuals into one
category. While all the time keeping as much distance bettween 'us' and
'them'.
My friend and I met up with one of my long time girlfriends and her friend.
Cool. "We're" 'Black', the women we were with were "White". One of
them's my old roomate, but her friend was kind of quirky. After not
talking to us all night (Alright, she's shy, no prob), she decides to
relate to us as friends.
I reminded her of, " That guy, from clueless, you know... the black guy".
And my friend (5"6, skinny as hell), reminded her of "Tupac". At that
point my friend replied, "Tupac's dead, but as I said (3 hrs earlier)
before my name is 'Jules', and again it's nice to meet you".
It's my opinion if we use stereotypes to advance us in any way, it will
only get us as far as the last time someone from that same group got.
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/5/2004 at 06:45 AM |
seems to me that we are talking about 3 different things here:
stereotype:
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or
image.
sexism:
discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex
Social Roles:
The way that someone is expected to behave in a particular social
situation.
Sterotypes are something that we use inside our heads to makes sense of the
blobs with legs that we see. Stereotypes have little real impact on our day
to day lives. This is just a way that people (like everyone) deals with the
massive amount of visual data that comes their way and sunconciously
defines the people that stream past them as "fuckable", "threat", and
"family". and there is very little resistance to meeting people in one
stereotype or another. A sterotype tells us how they should act, but doesnt
tell us how to act.
Sexism on the other hand is something that we do activly to other people.
Sexism something you (the general you) does to other people to abuse them.
its a type of mental illness and does indicate a mental instability. Sexism
has its roots in fear; they are trying to make the scary thing (women,
black people, tall people, old people, young people, any grouping of
people) go away and be less powerful than they are. Sexism MAKES them go
out of their way to DO things. THey experience alot of resistance to
meeting people that fit into thier fear pattern and, when someone doesnt
act less powerful than them, they attack.
Social roles are totally different from both. social roles are things that
are agreed on by the majority of people as acceptable ways for people to
act to other people. not that we take a vote or anything, but we do agree
that people should behave certain ways in certain situations. Social roles
make it easier to deal with other people since both you and the other
person know how you are supposed to intereact. Like you go into a bank to
deposit your check. Do you want the teller acting like your mom? acting
like they are in a dance club 10 minutes before last call? like your
bestfriend? no, you want them to act like a teller and get the money to
your account as fast as possible.
THe other thing i want to say is that stereotypes and social roles change
over time and from place to place. -isms dont. stereotypes and social roles
are defined by groups of people about groups of people and -isms are
defined by individuals about groups of people. The stereotype of a teen
aged female has changed radically in the past 30 years. the social role of
a teenaged female has also changed radically. the -ism against teenagers
hasnt. ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
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BlueLinn
Fanatic  Posts: 246 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/5/2004 at 09:24 AM |
| I am woman, hear me roar.... ____________________
When the world is over, will we wonder how it began?
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/5/2004 at 12:33 PM |
| Linn: I introduced you to shmeng... I believe you need to go look up the
newbie article by callei hun... ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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