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Kira
Member   Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 09:40 AM |
Making this it's own thread, maybe too late..
Rogue: Maybe I phrased that wrong? When I said that the poverty line is
ridiculously low, I meant that it could be raised significantly (say, to
$25-30K a year for a family of 4) and people would still be struggling.
Whereas right now, the cutoff seems really low to me at $18K. I think by
keeping it so low they can say "look, only x% of our population is under
the poverty level." When if the poverty level were even slightly higher, a
much larger percentage of the population would be considered poor. And
you're right, compared to what people are forced to live on in other
countries, our level of poverty seems insignificant. But I still think with
so many "haves" in this country, we should take care of the have-nots
(including worldwide) as best we can. Doing so creates a more productive
society and lowers the crime rate, besides just being the nice thing to
do.
Anya: It's not about me proving you right or wrong, because whether you
think poor people deserve cuts/welfare or not is your opinion. I am only
saying that you may want to make sure you really understand what people go
through before making up your mind. And you certainly should try to make
sure you know what you're talking about before you go off making sweeping
statements about any group of people. So far you don't have me convinced.
Again, I fail to see what any of this has to do with quotas or race.
Just because some people (including your teacher, or whoever) raise up in
class by working hard doesn't mean it is that simple for everyone. In fact,
I'm guessing by your posts that you most likely only encounter poor people
who have worked their way up. That excludes, of course all the "bums" who
are on welfare and probably spending all their money on alcohol because
they have an addiction. It also excludes the poor people who *are* working
very hard and still finding it difficult to advance financially.
I'm all about personal responsibility, but you also have to understand that
sometimes things happen that fall outside the scope of a person's actions.
And people fuck up occasionally, but that doesn't mean they should have to
live in squallor. People who can help should try to get them back on their
feet...even if it means (gasp!) paying a little extra in taxes. ____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
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Rogue
Member  Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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 posted on 5/3/2004 at 10:09 AM |
Kira: You didn't phrase it incorrectly at all, I totally agree with you.
I actually think that the government should determine what a realistic
living wage is and make sure that every working person or family unit is at
or above that level. That and I would like to see more companies
distribute profits to their employees in addition to, or instead of their
stockholders. I just wanted to point out that the underpayment and
exploitation of the poor doesn't stop at our borders and in fact our
companies are even worse to the citizens of other nations.
http://www.livingwagecampaign.org/wagelevel.php
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Rogue
Member Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 10:36 AM |
I also think that we have individual as well as collective
responsibilities, that as a society we have the obligation to take care of
those who are not getting enough despite trying, but that each individual
has the obligation to try. I have no sympathy for people like an
ex-coworker of mine who wouldn't marry his girlfriend because she would
lose welfare and they were collecting from three counties for the same kid
while she sat around all day. I also have no sympathy for the guy that
drives an Escalade and tries to hide his income so he can avoid paying a
few grand into the system so the system could help the genuinely needy.
Both hoarders and leeches are detrimental parasites to the system, but in
different ways. Responsibility, collective or individual, is not popular
these days though, as evidenced by the McDonalds coffee lawsuit and
numerous other examples.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 10:48 AM |
Kira I agree with your statements... but raising the line won't make any
real difference... I tire of people that are not in the situation thinkin
that it just takes hard work to get out... sometimes... when they are lucky
it can happen... but it rarely works...
Feral ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Anonymous
 Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 11:22 AM |
Feral: Sure, raising the poverty line wouldn't have a direct effect on the
impoverished. But since the U.S. is so image conscious politically I think
it would really hurt our national ego to have to say almost 50% of our
population is below the poverty line.
Just to keep on stirring the pot:
1998 - Median net worth of an white person in America = $81,700
1998 - Median net worth of a Hispanic person in America = $3,000
http://www.inequality.org/factsfr.html
Sorry, worker's rights and weatlh distribution are extremely
interesting/important topics to me, and often completely overlooked in the
media.
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Kira
Member Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 11:24 AM |
| Whoops, I swear I logged in! ____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
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Rogue
Member Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 12:22 PM |
Feral, saying that it just takes hard work is an oversimplification, but I
think it does take considerable effort of some kind plus the presence of
some opportunity (which can be created on occasion) plus the willingness
and ability to sieze opportunity when it arises.
Ten years ago, I lifted 60,000lbs (weight, not money) a day by hand in a
warehouse just to make maybe $20k with four children and a single income.
I attended school and took a shot at every opportunity I could. I finally
got laid off from there and called back by the warehouse office in the same
week, about an internal position for which I had applied. In another week,
I was working again with a substantial pay cut but in the office as a
mainframe operator trainee. I have played that up into jobs doing software
development work, software configuration management, and other descriptions
that all basically mean "professional slacker". There was luck involved,
to be sure, but I had to put myself out there and do things like learn
mainframe in four months and teach myself Java and XML/XSL while getting
paid to program it. Luck alone is not enough, unless you win Powerball or
something, and hard work alone will only keep you treading water. I agree
with you, but I still think that effort is key.
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 12:22 PM |
Kira, you really should go out and buy "the redneck manifesto" by Jim Goad,
not only is it a hillariously angry and indignant history of "white trash"
and "race issues", but he goes seriously in depth into "class
descrimination" and poverty, and how the two coincide. One section goes
into how if we were to compare the average bluecollar american wage of
today and what it costs to live, versus the average bluecollar american
wage and cost of living from 20 years ago, it equals out to working
something like 10hrs extra a week at three dollars LESS an hour.
Plus what really irks me is when companies do "cutbacks", ie fire a load of
people to "save money". If most companies that needed to "save money" cut
their CEO's income by 2%, TWO PERCENT, most of the time they wouldn't have
the need to lay off employees.
I don't know where this thread came from, but it's an excellent discussion
topic if you ask me. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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Rogue
Member Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 12:31 PM |
Bettie, the layoff I mentioned in my post...it was done entirely to bump
the stock price so the CEO could cash out and retire. They kept most of
the people working on-call so they could decrease headcount on paper and
brought back all of them within a few months when the CEO's stock sales
were done.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 02:57 PM |
| Rogue: A good point... I do the same thing... every posting is applied
for... I may have an opportunity comin up... but the reason I am against
the statement because it IS simplified... and I get so tired of people
simplifying things till they loose and meaning... ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Monolycus
Fanatic   Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 5/3/2004 at 04:50 PM |
I can't say much here (yet) that hasn't already been touched upon (and very
well, I might add) by others, but I just wanted to say how refreshing it is
to hear people intelligently and realistically discussing the problem.
Kudos!
I know that I have mentioned elsewhere that a large portion of this
situation stems directly from the internalization of very, very hurtful
values. Whether we want to blame human nature for that (I am not inclined
to; society-wide avarice/apathy about the condition of others seems to be a
more recent phenom and seems to coincide with a "disposable" mentality...
up to and including one's fellows) or the media (which is where I am at
with it), makes little difference. It is absolutely unsustainable. To
continue to prop up the apex of the pyramid (if one wants to think of a
minority leisure class as an apex) at the expense of a foundation is a
recipe for disaster. Also, I feel our expectations about what constitutes
"profit" and how much we can reasonably expect need to be re-evaluated. In
the words of David Suzuki, "Unlimited growth is the creed of the cancer
cell."
~M.
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Schizo
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 02:33 AM |
I happen to know from experience that it takes two people, working
full-time and overtime, making an average of $10 an hour, to support a
family of three, a one bedroom apartment, payments on a modest but reliable
vehicle, and child support for two children. This is without childcare,
and with extremely minimal luxury expenses.
I've been on the dole before, and I've received state and town aid and
medicaid in my time. Also benefits from charitable organizations.
Personally, I hated it. I would much rather work my tail off and do it
myself, like I do now.
However, I know something's wrong when two children have to move from
friend's home to family's home, because their lazy mother won't work, and
because their hard working father and step-mother can't afford a large
enough home no matter how hard they work. I don't want help for me - I'm
doing fine. I just want to see those kids get a decent, stable home.
Preferably with us, not with their neglectful mother and semi-abusive
step-father (from all I've heard).
I don't pretend to know what should be done politically about the
situation, or even if something SHOULD be done politically. It's easy to
say, give us more money, but that money has to come from someplace, and it
seems too easy to say, just take it from the rich. I'll have to think
about it some more, not that it matters. Even if I come to a conclusion,
it won't change anything. ____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
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Domkitten
Fanatic  Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 04:58 AM |
I should probably save myself the aneurism from writing this, but hell, I'm
on a ski trip, I don't ski, and I just paid more than my fair share to use
a pc for a while, so buckle up people cause your going for a ride.
Most of this has to do with the social welfare system. I see lots of people
quoting excellent sources in reference to what was posted early. I also
went back and read over the rather disturbing remarks about Hispanics
getting more then their fair share. So here we come to my two cents.
I actually spent the two years before coming to Korea working in Social
Service and working with those who were in need of, applying for, or trying
to qualify for public aid. I spent a lot of time working with lots of
families, many immigrant Hispanic families, and other immigrants, as well
as those of every other race, shape, color and creed, and here is what I
can say with absolutely certainty.
First of all, during the Clinton Administration a program was begun to
start phasing people off of social service programs. If you did not qualify
for Social Security and were otherwise able bodied, then you had a clock of
time in which to make yourself completely independent of welfare. You may
have heard of it as welfare to work. (pro view: http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Bill_Clinton_Welfare_+_Pove
rty.htm con view: http://www.greens.org/s-r/12/12-15.html) The program
itself is somewhat sound, the problem is that finding jobs and getting
those who have been on welfare for years, or those who are newly immigrated
to the country and must work illegally to work can be difficult.
Regardless, there is a time-line for which you can draw welfare, and once
that time-line has expired you could be finding yourself seriously SOL, as
many of the families I worked with in Chicago were coming to realize back
in 2002 when there clocks were about to run out.
As for the welfare program itself, the perks are not so glamorous.
Lets first talk about Medicare. In a city like Chicago if you are on
Medicare, Medicaid, or any other sponsored health care program, if you
qualify, than you will be referred to Cook County Hospital for treatment. I
had the good fortune to be able to spend a hot summer day in the gynecology
ward with about 300 black and Hispanic women waiting to be served. There
were about 600 people total crammed into the waiting room, around 200 kids
wandering around screaming in the heat, and not enough chairs for anyone,
so many of us were sitting on the floor. There was no air conditioning but
there was a large metal fan in one corner to move the air. The wait was
between 4 and 5 hours to see the doctor. Once you got in to see the doctor
you were taken to a line of chairs that stretched out in both directions.
Everyone could see you, there was no privacy. The doctors treated the
patients like cattle, and that is exactly what the patients were, they were
cattle being shepherded in because they could afford no better.
And this was just gynecology, that scene was taking place all over the
various floors of the hospital. Perhaps Medicare seems glamorous, but
really, it's the most degrading and humiliating way to receive service, and
I know that from personal experience, I got to sit on the floor and be part
of it, with all those other women. And at the end of the day, you know how
I felt, humiliated and completely stripped of my humanity.
There is a look that those who must survive by using welfare have, and it
is a look I can recognize. It is a look of being removed from what is
basically and essentially human. It angers me to see the response given to
those who use food stamps in a store, to see the treatment of those who
must subsist on welfare, because it is degrading. Are there those who enjoy
receiving welfare? Potentially, but in my working experience with those who
were so far below the poverty line that food pantries, holiday baskets, and
Medicare was a way of life, I never saw a single soul that I worked with
who had joy shining in their eyes.
So, there are my two cents. Say what you will but please don't bash the
poor, what is taken away is far more than can ever be given back with a
tax incentive.
____________________
It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus
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callei
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 07:20 AM |
That domkitten for pointing out the hard and horrible fact that the rest of
us were dancing around. To be that poor is to be treated as less than
human, and over time, you come to believe it yourself. If you have no hope,
no faith in yourself, you are truely poor. And getting $1600 (the max
amount where i am for a single person) is not going to change that state of
hopelessness.
Some of you may be saying "wow, 1600? that is buckets! I want that much to
do nothing!". I say go for it. go down and apply, fill out the 200 pages of
paperwork at 7 different offices spaced around your county. But remember
take the bus, since you will probably have to give up that car your parents
gave you. wait the three months to get rejected and then refile your claim.
go to the doctors visits they send you to and wait all day to see someone
that KNOWS you are lying. spend your days waiting in the offices with hard
chairs waiting for the chance to talk to your case worker, or in most cases
to find out WHO your case worker is now. And once you get your check, be
ready to do it all again in 6 months when some rule changes.
sit there with all the other people who are getting paid to do "nothing".
Go to the "job training" classes. Be ready to spend the whole day learning
where the "a" button is on the keyboard. Go to all the interviews they make
you go to. See the eyes of the interviewer. Now be prepared to see them
waiting at your front door to inspect your house. Go to the manditory money
management classes, lifestyle management classes, and compliance education
classes.
Now ask yourself why they do drugs. ask yourself why they seem so unhappy.
ask yourself where all your freetime went. Is it any wonder that so many
people on the dole break laws?
these people work illegally because they have to, not because they want to.
they steal because they have no access to money any other way (sligtht
exageration but not by much). They do drugs not because it is a thrill, but
because it numbs the fear, desperation, and pain. I am always suprised that
more of them dont sell thier ass for beer money.
I knew a guy growing up. actually i knew a bunch of them, but let me talk
about just one here, a "success" story. he grew up on the dole. That means
that he was hungry, very cold all winter, too hot all summer, badly
dresses, and EVERYONE knew that he was on the the dole. so the teachers
didnt try to get him to learn anything (whats the point since welfare kids
arent going anywhere and are (perception) too dumb to learn). he got in
trouble in school more, not because he did more "bad" stuff, but because he
was a good scapegoat. He commited a major crime when he was 20 so that he
could go to jail. he wanted the rehab help, education assistance, and job
training. He couldnt get that outside of jail. so he picked a crime that
would put him in for 5 years and did it then stood there til he was caught.
You might think he was stupid, to go to jail on purpose and a loser. Well
he wasnt. He was one of the smarter people that i knew in my "smart kids"
classes. Its hard to get scholarships and college offers when you dont have
a permenant address. Its hard to make it to school when you are living on
the streets (his mother lost thier appartment a few times in highschool).
its tough to pay attention in class or do your homework when you are
worrying about getting your next meal or feeding your younger siblings (in
his case 3 younger sisters). so he often missed school or failed to turn in
homeowrk. and we all know that means getting your grades lowered.
Well you say, he could have gotten a job and gone to Community college like
so many of us do. Sure he could have, and let his sisters starve on the
street. he could have gotten a place and let his sisters live with him
until the 4 of them got kicked out for having too many people in the house.
he could have put his sisters in foster-care. He tried all those, and that
is why he waited until he was 20 to go to jail.
In the end, he went to jail. and got his BA and got accepted to a real
school to get his Masters. smart man. He has a PhD now too. He got off the
dole, eventually. But at what cost to himself? its strange to me to think
he is a 'success" story. he is an ex-con and always will be. He started his
career 3 or 4 years late. Most places he works he will always be the first
to be suspected when some temp worker starts stealing paperclips. But he
"made" it. Just dont ask about his sisters. ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 10:12 AM |
I agree with you to an extent on the poor vs. rich thing, Rogue, but I
still have that "a lot of them worked their ass off to get that high" echo
in the back of my head. I think many of those rich people started off with
scratch before rising in the system...at least I hope many of them did.
They (or their ancestors) had to start as a worker before becoming a
leader. I'm mostly Capitalist though so my position in the big arguement
probably affects how I feel. I understand wanting to help the poor...do not
agree with it, but I can understand that set of morals. In fact, I actually
gave spare change when I came here until I saw the same people purchasing
alcohol.
Most European countries are Socialist so I think a lot of you guys probably
would like it there better than the US. Then again, I'm probably making an
ass out of myself thinking that a lot of you guys oppose Capitalism.
*moved from the other thread*
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Anya
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 656 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 10:26 AM |
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109386,00.html
http://www.americandaily.com/item/3867
I gave the wrong URL on the previous source. Here's what I was referring to
plus a Fox News article. We still have some homeless, but it's not as bad
as people dramatise it to be.
I don't think we should get rid of Welfare or the social programs
completely, but I think there should be some sort of system where those
using the social program has a sort of Debit Card or something...so that
people can watch what they buy with it. Then they can catch the abusers and
cut them off. That's me, though. I know there are some who do need it, but
there has to be a way where it isn't abused.
I might consider visiting a homeless home for community service, if it's
near...not sure. I'm interested more in why they're such an issue...being
a Capitalist pig and all. *snickers*
Rogue: I know I came off wrong and I apologise for it. There are still
minor quotas in the system though, but I think it can be said for almost
the whole immigration population (including the less noticable Cuban,
Asian, and European ones). People are giving them somewhat more of a
sugar-coat. On the other hand, I almost can say that I have more respect
for them for the sheer fact that they're willing to work harder with less
pay compared to your average American. One of the big bitches I have with
it is the fact that people are letting them get away with not speaking (or
learning) any "American English"...along with people getting laid off for
them. It's unfair to me that most people emmigrating to other countries
have to learn those countries' language, yet they can get away with not
doing it here (then again, life isn't fair, heh)...if I am wrong about this
point it out. I'm aware that a lot of countries are working on bi-lingual
(sp?) with the English language, but there are still a lot that do not.
Now I'm not trying to pick on Hispanics just because they're Hispanics,
there's many who are US citizens and earned their citizenship...as said
before, I'll say this for other forms of illegal immigrants now. I am,
though, sick and tired of how certain people exploit them...I think you
all seen how that's been done with people letting illegal immigrants (guess
I should call them "Foreign Nationals") take the jobs of US citizens
without the making of alternatives. In a way it's good for the economy,
but at the same time, we need more jobs without losing them to 'cheap
labor' or we'll not really have an economy left (since there would be less
consumption due to less money). I really just wish someone up there would
make it where they earn their citizenship like many other people had.
[Edited on 3/6/2004 by Anya]
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 10:34 AM |
they already use debit cards. and get to wait in Russianlike lines to get
them refilled every 2 weeks or a month. everything they buy with the cash
they are given is monitored (and strangly more money goes to monitoring for
"abuses" than goes to dental care)
as for learning a the native language when you move to a new country, well
its hard to do. In your case, california, the first, and most lasting
Europen language, that was spoken there was Spanish. Spanish was the main
language for some 300 years til the gold rush started (roughly) then
English moved in. It has been a "spanish" area for some 400+ years and only
entered the union in 1850 with no "legal" language. For the record in the
1800's and early 1900's many states were bilingual, not just california. We
are a country of immigrants so why would we make other immigrants learn
another language when our grandparents refused to?
As for english in other countries, most European nations have populations
that speak a non-native language. Some, especially the younger ones (under
40) know 3 or 4 languages. In some countries, its the civil law that you
must learn at least 3 well enought to hold conversations and read the
newspaper.
and over there, English was only the language of one nation, and often not
its main or legal language either. In asia there are major pushs to teach
the children English, but not as thier main language, adn why would it be?
English is presently the major trade language in the world. so what. so was
french for awhile, and dutch has its place in history there too, as well as
spanish and farsi and manderin.
If i am understanding you tho, you are saying that its not "fair" that
people move here with an imperfect understanding of English, while when
americans move to other places, they have to learn the language there
before they go. To give a small and totally incomplete answer to that;
americans find it very hard to get refugee status in other countries, while
the US does accept some refugees every year from places that dont teach
english to all of thier population. When Us citizens go to other countries
it tends to be to take up work that is white collar work, not farm work, or
other menial labor. Those americans, as one of the jobs skills that they
must possess, speak at least some of the language that the other workers
will be speaking to get that job. you cant really compare the migration of
tech workers and university teachers to impoverished dirt farmers and
political refugees.
and are you aware that we have oddles of "illegals" from canada? that they
make up almost as big of a group as the semi-legals of hispanics? Just
wondering if you had heard about that "problem" as well.
wait tho, why is it so hard to cross borders and work in other countries?
why all this border control and people control in the first place? is that
some countries dont want to have tooo many people? or that some countries
dont want to do what it takes to keep their people and instead make it hard
to leave? Is it a fear that all the servants will leave? or that too many
will show up? ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and vampires
away.
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Anonymous
Posts: 116 Registered: 14/4/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 01:10 PM |
quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109386,00.html
http://www.americandaily.com/item/3867
The first article refutes itself at the end by saying the statistics for
living space were comparing rural areas to city areas. Plus, it acts like
having a space to live and a car for transportation are huge luxuries. Due
to the sprawl in this country, cars are almost necessary except for those
living in the very inner city. So if you have a house (no matter how
crappy, or how bad the neighborhood/school system) and a car (no matter how
crappy or unreliable) you're in GREAT shape! See, you're not really poor at
all! Now sit down and shut up and stop complaining.
The second link, again (and I notice that die hard
repubnicans/conservatives love to do this) deals with one person cheating
the system. So, by logic EVERYONE on welfare must be cheating the system!
Free rent in section 8 housing? Jeez, why don't we just put her up at the
Hilton! Here's some homework for ya: contact your city and find out what
sections are considered section 8. Then go drive around in those
neighborhoods and see if you would want to live in them, even for free.
quote:
I have the wrong URL on
the previous source. Here's what I was referring to plus a Fox News
article. We still have some homeless, but it's not as bad as people
dramatise it to be.
Have you not read any of the above posts here, or the excellent articles
Meranda_Jade posted awhile back? Of course, it isn't *really* as bad as
people dramatise it to be.
quote:
Now I'm not trying to pick on Hispanics just because they're Hispanics,
there's many who are US citizens and earned their citizenship...as said
before, I'll say this for other forms of illegal immigrants now. I am,
though, sick and tired of how certain people exploit them...I think you
all seen how that's been done with people letting illegal immigrants (guess
I should call them "Foreign Nationals") take the jobs of US citizens
without the making of alternatives.
So, you're just picking on illegal immigrants in general? Oh, well...that's
*much* better. I shouldn't even have to say this, but you must realize that
some people didn't have the luck to be born in a country where they could
make a sustainable living? Free from persecution? And not everyone has the
resources to immediately obtain citizenship.
And yes, all those illegal immigrants taking our precious jobs...washing
dishes, doing manual unskilled laobr, cleaning toilets, running quickie
marts. Whatever shall we do to replace those valuable jobs? And we exploit
them by paying them 1/4 of what a legal worker would get paid. I know that
every friend of mine is just *dying* to break into the custodial industry.
Too bad there aren't any jobs there anymore.
quote:
In a way it's good for the economy, but at the same time, we need more
jobs without losing them to 'cheap labor' or we'll not really have an
economy left (since there would be less consumption due to less money). I
really just wish someone up there would make it where they earn their
citizenship like many other people had.
[Edited on 3/6/2004 by Anya]
Hey, look! We agree on something. We do need more jobs w/out losing them to
cheap labor! But you are blaming the wrong people completely. It's not the
fault of the poor, or the illegal immigrants. It's your own beloved
capitalists moving jobs that used to be done in the US to cheaper,
deregulated places like China or India. Because if you are a die hard
capitalist, the bottom line is making money. And the people in those places
will work cheaper.
Management: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 288,281
Business: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 348,028
Computer: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 472,632
Architecture: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 184,347
Life sciences: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 36,770
Legal: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 76,642
Art, design: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 29,564
Sales: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 226,564
Office: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015: 1,659,310
Source: Forrester Research, Inc. November, 2002
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1224-07.htm
http://www.rense.com/general49/midl.htm
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Kira
Member Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 01:18 PM |
| D'oh, me again. ____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
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callei
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 759 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 6/3/2004 at 01:43 PM |
the other facinating thing is that many of those jobs that are being
"taken" away are not here now. they are being created in other countries
and US workers will go there so that they too can get paid.
Im part of that 500k jobs market of tech workers. There are 14 thousand
jobs (last weds.) available in germany in the tech sector. there are 48 in
my state. hmmm lets think about that one for a moment shall we? ____________________
Real goths wear silver and crosses to keep the werewolves and
vampires
/>
away.
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