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Author: Subject: military goths

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/10/2004 at 03:36 AM
And Schiz... I'll say that to a WWII vet as quickly as I will say it to anyone. Who, precisely, was going to make me goose step? USA and Germany were trading partners and the USA wrote Germany's eugenics program (read: extermination) until a monster ten times worse than Adolf Hitler appeared on the scene (Josef Stalin)... and then we allied ourselves with THAT atrocity! ~shaking my head~

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/10/2004 at 03:58 AM
Man... I have GOT to stop bottling up all this anger.

FUCK! SHIT! COCK! PISS! CUNT! PUSSY! MOTHERFUCK!

Okay. That's a little better.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/10/2004 at 03:38 PM
Sorry I got kind of pissy, too, but I can't help seeing red whenever people make blanket statements about people in the military, because I instantly see my cousin's face. I see him as he was before the military, just sort of good-naturedly fumbling his way towards ruining his life, and the way he was as I saw him last, an adult, with strength and control in his face. I am so proud of my cousin, and I love him so much. It wasn't his fault that he lost his father to cancer, that his mother couldn't afford to send him to a decent school, and that he was blessed (and cursed) with and easy-going friendly personality that just set him up to fall into the wrong croud. He WAS smart enough to know that he didn't want to go the way he was headed, and smart enough to find a way out. It's a pity that there aren't more ways out for kids in his situation. And he's shouldered his load and taken his responsibility. And he hasn't let the military squash the humanity out of him. I hurt for him every time I think about it, and I think about it often, thanks to the picture of him on my fridge.

I hate this war, and all it represents. As for WWII, I don't know a whole lot of the politics of it, except I know that if America's government was anything then like it is today, then we weren't much better than the Nazi's we were fighting. But your average G.I.? They were just ordinary guys trying to protect their families, and other people's families, too. Were they deluded? Maybe. Were they stupid? No. In the face of the information that they had at their disposal, they did their best to do what appeared necessary. And they have my respect and honor. They do, and so do those kids like my cousin in Iraq. They are doing their best with what they've been given, and they deserve better.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/10/2004 at 08:13 PM
Mono... these options are the ONLY way some people can get out of the slums and lower income areas of the united stated... Thing is...those who don't have a good source of education aren't dipshits... they are unwittingly ignorant and have only a few options...

And my argument is from the standpoint of an idealistic youth who didn't learn what the US government was about until AFTER signing up...

Now... those that are overseas, being ass-monkeys, will be ass-monkeys no matter where they are... all I have to say is that you seem to be making a blanket statement that covers the entirety of the service members... and in many cases, they are too idealistic to know different... and those that are not ass-monkeys... well you get my point...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/10/2004 at 08:14 PM
http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1107 &idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041007%2F2057299404.htm&sc=1107&photoid=20041007MOC R101

speaking of this war... I cannot even begin to convey my shock...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.



Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/10/2004 at 03:26 AM
feral and Schiz: You both dealt more constructively with my observations (read: hissy fit) than I was afraid you were going to. Thanks for giving me equal time there even if I did abuse it a bit. I agree that blanket assessments are not a good way to view much of anything, but, honestly, when the Abu Ghraib story broke, all of us English teachers looked at each other and shrugged. Nobody was a bit surprised. I've seen American GI's misbehaving in horrible, horrible ways in the USA when I was growing up but I can tell you that their behaviour becomes even more appalling when they are shitting in someone else's living room. The servicemen of other nations don't seem to behave quite so badly when they are on foreign soil and I don't even begin to know why that is.

feral, I know and I agree that for many military service seems the only escape... but I disagreed wholeheartedly about your comments about the GI bill and retirement plans being the draw there. Being a thuglike enforcer isn't incidental to the job... it is the job and everything else is a fringe benefit. If you cut a deal with the devil, you can't complain when it's time to pay up... at the end of the day, enlistment is about being there to kill or be killed should the occasion arise. The retirement plan is simply icing, you can't justifiably make an argument that you had no idea people might shoot back.

Schiz, while every human being is an individual and none of us want our loved ones in harm's way, you do have to ask... what is he doing over there? The answer, as painful as it is to hear, is that he is working as the strong arm of people with extremely questionable motives. There's simply no way to rationalise that away. I'm sorry, but I do not respect blind obedience when people are being killed and maimed.

And finally, feral again... you can not genuinely and truly say that you are shocked by that news item. The only shocking thing about it is that Bush and Cheney are being that candid about things. Honestly, I despise saying "I told you so", but, for Christ's sake, read some of my back comments on all of this before military operations were begun. This should not catch you off guard at all.

Thanks, guys. This is a very emotional topic and I am glad that there is no ill-will between us over it.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/10/2004 at 08:54 AM
now, i wonder. is it war crimes time for bush?
if someone with the power to do so had the balls to stand up and try to bring him to justice for an illegal war in this mockery of an international law we have, would he stand trial?
also it is nice to see him still standing up for what he beleives in. no weapons of mass destruction, and no possibility of them. of course this is not a dual standard.
i suspect that he will continue to stand behind his 'saddam had every intention of restarting his program once the sanctions were lifted' but what that actually means is 'once saddam was allowed to make wmds he was going to make wmds'
umm. anyone see an inconsistency here?

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/10/2004 at 12:30 PM
I know, Mono. I hate this war, and I hate having my cousin being involved in it at all. I dealt better with it when he was stationed in Bosnia, guarding the churches which were as a result, the only safe place for the children to play. But I do know this - my cousin, though politically deluded, is still a sane, decent person in the middle of an insane, indecent situation, and he conducts himself as such. It seems that extreme conditions such as war magnify the personality of the person involved. So many people are assholes deep inside, that it's no wonder that armies of all nations have a reputation for rapine and pillage. But there are still some decent fellows trapped in the mess, and they deserve better than to be lumped with the rest.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/10/2004 at 12:40 AM
W0rmW00d: It was war crimes time over a year ago until the spineless Belgians who were proffering charges at the world court caved in because Rumsfeld threatened to take all those US dollars home with him if they did. Ain't gonna happen.

Schiz: Well, then, let's be consistent here. There were some damned fine men who also had extended families and happened to fight and die for the cause of National Socialism in Germany in the 1920's-1930's. They probably don't "deserve" to be lumped in with the rest of the Nazis, either. It is by our decisions that we are judged, not our characters.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/10/2004 at 07:58 PM
Mono: but the recruiters are the first and only contact most of these youngsters have before they make it to Boot camp... and lemme tell you... the recruiters make it sound like you just have to go through basic, then you can do anything you want... Seriously... they sell this pile of shit, telling these kids that tehyt can get computer, communications, mechanics experience, educations and the like... MOST never know until classification what they really signed on for... the number of people that came out of that door crestfallen, upset and horrified... these people are lied to...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/10/2004 at 08:01 PM
Wormwood: half of those that should get full pensions, get cheated... I am one of em... I got three years of pension and medical coverage, in spite of the fact that they ruined my knees... and then DICK... ABSOLUTELY DICK

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>





Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/10/2004 at 11:45 PM
feral: Yes, I am aware of how predatory and manipulative military recruiters are, and I agree with you that this is a big, big part of the problem. It staggers me that anyone actually believes a single word said by any spokesman of the government, but I'm forming the opinion that the average person actually wants to be lied to. I would say that people are sheeplike, but I have yet to see a sheep that was actually eager to be fleeced.

At any rate, while I acknowledge the duplicity there, it is incumbent upon people to find out as much as they can before they sign on the dotted line. I apologise for how cynical this is going to sound, but... of course a recruiter is going to lie to you. Of course an elected official is going to lie to you. Hell, even the fucking newspapers are going to lie to you. If you simply believe everything a salesman tells you and don't read the fine print yourself and do a bit of fact checking, YOU WILL GET SCREWED. Duh.

~M.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/10/2004 at 02:00 AM
you don't sign at classification... classification is where you go and they tell you what you wanna be... once you are in... you are in their power... the only way that you can guarentee what you get to do is to get it signed ahead of time is to have it signed before you go in... I know 3 that got that... and we were pilots first...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
/>
/>







Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/10/2004 at 04:21 AM
Mono, thanks for the correction. How easy it is to swallow down the notion that Nazi = evil, and forget all the innocent swept up there, too. Just like the rest of the world today in regards to the USA, we see the evil of the leaders, and project it onto all who wear the uniform. This isn't right, and I apologize.

As for the lies that people swallow to believe things like politicians and military recruiters, well, a lot of 18 year olds just aren't that used to picking up on lies. Especially one like my cousin. His father was one of the nicest men I have ever come across, and his mother is amazing. Neither of them would wittingly lie to their son. Yes, the church that we were raised in was a crock of bull, but I know it took me well past my teens before I figured that out. And public highschools are sure as hell not going to bite the hand that feeds them. If you're not used to being lied to at home, and have not yet discovered the lies around you, then your are wide open to swallow anything the government or military wants to feed you. Ignorance, in my cousin's case, stopped being bliss.

I have not had the opportunity to talk to my cousin since he was stationed in Iraq. He's an intelligent person, and I don't think the military has squashed all perceptive ablilities out of him. I wonder now what he feels of his leaders.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the />
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of

girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 355
Registered: 5/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/10/2004 at 08:14 PM
good lord. screwed over in a finanial transaction? who would have thought it possible.
i really do think that anyone naive enough to beleive a recruitment poster has a screw loose somewhere. this time this isnt a dig, its just an opinion. the military needs bodies. it is a self proliferating machine which trains cannon fodder, to be truly blunt and history has proven that the militarys of the world are not averse to lying through their teeth to get want they want or need. you only need to squint a little at the space under one line and over another, and that is only in the subtle cases. i will freely admit that screws can be loosened by wrenches, to extend that metaphor well past its use-by date, just as surely as they can have been loose to begin with or work themselves loose over time. (god that got torturous didnt it). this need to open its eyes, uncover its ears and start screaming 'evil'

 

____________________
Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.



And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/10/2004 at 02:44 AM
I think I would be hard-put to find a human being on this earth that does not have at least one screw loose somewhere. And I'm sure we've all put ourselves in positions to get fucked up the ass royally, just because we neglected to read between all the lines. It's not stupidity, it's just humanity. Especially when it's inexperienced, deperate, eighteen-year-old humanity. It's easy to put people down when they swallow things that you've already seen through, but for all you know, you've swallowed things that they've seen through, too. That's life. You learn from your mistakes, if you're any good at all. But you're bound to make some pretty big mistakes now and then, and it doesn't mean that your any stupider than anyone else. Only if you make the same mistake again without learning. Now, there's true stupidity.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and
the
/>

dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest />
of


girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/10/2004 at 02:50 AM
Wormwood... having never been in the situations we are discussing, I really don't think you have any room to talk or any idea of what it's really like... when you are so desparate to out of the shit that you will take any option you offered... especially when you have NO PREVIOUS CONTACT with the military...

the middle eschellons of our society are aware... the lower are not...

 

____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can. />
/>

/>









Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist

 
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