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Author: Subject: The MOrals of Piracy in the digital age

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  posted on 2/8/2003 at 11:13 PM
Ok... I've been discussing the ethics of piracy with most of my friends, and we've decided to take teh gloves off and put this out there for EVERYONE to chat at.

the definition is The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material. Now. Napster Kazaaa, all of that makes it so easy, but moreally is it right?

One of my friends cited the fact that it takes money away from the artists and that is punishing them for the pricee of the cd. I agree with this, BUT, the record company actually pockets most of teh proceeds. I mean, if you are like me, you buy cd-rs 100+ at a time... even at retail, the price of a cd is only 17 cents if you shop right. NOW... I know a band, prodiuced their first album themselves... per cd after recording, they spent 3 dollars a disk... and that was payin retail for all services... so... where is the 15-25 dollar price tag coming from...

second instance... video. if it's been on tv, cable, pay per view... is it moral to download the fucker and rip it to vcd?

just food for thought kiddies

Feral

 

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  posted on 2/8/2003 at 11:40 PM
Well, since I've now been bitch-slapped into reality on the fact that it's not such a good idea to download mp3's anymore, I won't be doing that...well not anymore at least.

I've gotten into more than a few discussions lately over the whole issue of the crackdown on downloading songs and the like. One of the more interesting points (at least for myself) lately is that some people are convinced of how morally improper it is to download a song from the internet, and yet they believe it's not harmful to artists if they just burn songs from a cd they purchased. *blinks* So I've pointed out to the moral ones *cough cough* that when they buy one cd and make several copies of it for their friends, they aren't putting additional money in the artist or record company's pocket when they do that.

I think if the whole idea of money and commerce is moral in and of itself, then it would follow that it's immoral to take something from someone who sells the something without paying for it. Technically it is stealing, and stealing is generally considered wrong in all circumstances in today's world. Even with all the arguments about how certain types of stealing are okay because of all the circumstances surrounding those situations (ie: rich peope vs. poor people). Reality is that most people feel violated when something is stolen from them regardless of whether they are rich or poor.

 

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  posted on 3/8/2003 at 12:11 AM
Well, it is quite the double-edged blade here. Yes, in a way, it is taking money out of the pockets of the artists (more of the company, though). However, it can also help the artists that have not been heard of before and encourage people to buy their CD's. All I can say is that if the record company was not whoring the CD's so much, there'd probably not be that many people out there trying to get mp3's.

There's another thought, though...some of my statistic analysis could be wrong, but we've had mp3's for quite a long time and it's only in this recent year or two that the record company is having problems? Maybe the mp3 sharing increase isn't any help, but I still strongly believe that there's more factors than just mp3's that's making the company lose money. Read some chapters in the book called "The Truth About Lying With Statistics", you'll understand a bit of what I mean.

As for myself, I don't care how immoral people think it is, I rather get three songs off a CD free than spend fifteen to twenty bucks for the other ten songs that I do not like and will not use it against anyone else. If people had the songs sold by individual CD's, or someone started to sell custom-made CD's, I would probably go for that. Hell, I'd even spend five dollars on three songs I liked enough.

There's bands out there that I want to buy CD's from, but unfortunately, the stores here do not sell them and some of the bands still have CD's where there's only three songs out of fifteen that I like. Heh.


[Edited on 8/3/2003 by Anya]

 

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  posted on 3/8/2003 at 01:35 AM
There are three situations that I consider morally acceptable:

1) If I'm sampling and/or it's something I plan to buy. I don't download in mass quantity.
2) If I'm legally entitled to a copy but that copy is elsewhere. For example, if I buy a cd and forget to take it with me to college.
3) If there's no way to get it short of buying an airplane ticket or if it is simply not yet available for purchase.

And Anya, I believe there are places that custom make cd's online.

 

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  posted on 3/8/2003 at 08:34 AM
Al: I am impressed...

Anya... splain the bitchslapping part?

 

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  posted on 3/8/2003 at 10:19 AM
The moral highroad is seldom the easy way.

As it is, the easy way is to click a song in kazaa and steal the music. OF course, since we are only stealing from big corporations and already rich people, it's ok right?

Sure they could buy the cd, but that would require them working to earn money, and then spending the money on something the don't feel is worth it. Or they could just do without, heaven forbid.

Also, feral, how much advertising did the $3 disk recieve? How much was it distributed? Part of the $13 price(current going rate for both Pink's and Christina Aguilera's newest CDs) of new CD's is also for advertising and distribution.

Another thing I hear people complaining about is the cost of import CDs. They can be double the price of normal CD's however they fail to realize that they must also cover the cost of international shipping charges and any import tarrifs.

 

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  posted on 3/8/2003 at 12:23 PM
What I meant by the whoring part was how they're charging a lot of money for a single CD, some of the CD's costing as much as fifteen bucks for just ten songs, probably only two or three that the person will really like. At the really good places, they'll charge as much as twenty bucks. That's what I mean about the whoring part.

I understand the need to make profit off CD's, but there's a lot of things out there that cost as much as pocketchange to make a piece that end up being sold for a lot more. It's probably hurting the music company more, though, since they get most of the profit off the CD's.


 

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  posted on 4/8/2003 at 07:49 AM
Xaos: IN the music industry, the company that makes the CD is RARELY the company that does the promotion... 95% of the time it is done by the distributors... the wholesale price is STILL over 10$ Currently there is a motion in congres to regulate CD prices... I support it... As for Tarriffs, we have no tariff on over seas import cd's as of now... that MIGHT change, but it is a fact... over seas shipping, when dealing with most companies, you order something and they will ship it for free...

Pricec Debate aside... Morally, is ir right to download a crystal clear copy of something when it's been on ther radio? I know the legality... and technicality... shit, I personally have made mp3s out of all of my cds... but sometimes... legality and morality are in diametric justaposition to each other...

Feral

 

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  posted on 4/8/2003 at 12:15 PM
That's a good point, and I'd like to know: What's the difference between tape-recording a song off the radio, and downloading a song off the 'net?

I mean, I recorded songs off the radio, way back in the day (oh yeah, I'm an elderly 18 years old... :p ). It was moral, since the radio gave them to you for free anyway. And if you wanted a particular song, you just call up and request it. Of course, the quality kinda stunk and most of the time I'd miss the first few seconds of a song, but it was alright...

So if I listen to the radio and download the songs that I hear on the radio, aren't I doing the same thing (in the long run)?

 

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  posted on 4/8/2003 at 02:32 PM
I'm a pirate. YOHO YOHO A PIRATES LIFE FOR ME! I'll do Johny Depp any day!

 

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  posted on 4/8/2003 at 03:01 PM
I've come up with the perfect defense in terms of music piracy, but it only works on songs you have heard at least once through acceptable channels, ie: on the radio, in a movie sound track, in a club, at a friends house, or even on the tester headphones at a music store. You are allowed to make a back-up copy of data that you are currently in possesion of, I consider myself to be in possession of my knowledge and memories. Therefore if I have heard a song, I am in possession of a legitimate copy of that song. If I want to make a back-up copy, or in some way get a back-up copy since brain to digital media transfer is still not the most funtional tech, then I have that right. I'm just making a back-up in case I get hit in the head or contract alzheimer's.

So personally, I think of it more as pre-technological back-up of mental material via an alternative method.

-Shade

 

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  posted on 4/8/2003 at 06:11 PM
Feral Government regulation of prices is a bad thing. The market can do that, all the government needs to do is not be the lap dogs of the RIAA. Instead of listening to them whine, they should point them to a business class where they can learn the fundamentles of Supply and Demand.

Ironboots A copy from the radio isn't a direct copy from a CD, like you said, the quality is bad. An MP3 that someone ripped from a CD is normally indistinguishable from the original. That is where the problem is.

 

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Does that make me a bad person?

 

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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 02:57 AM
Two Cents:

I like downloading music. I like it a lot. Generally I only download stuff I can’t get at all, or stuff I’ve bought so many damn times I’m simply not willing to do it again. For example, I admit, I like the natural born killers soundtrack. I’ve bought about twenty copies, all of which eventually get jacked at parties, or loaned to friends. I’ll be damned if I’m going to buy it again.

Beside, the point however, I like downloading music. And I think, that in the long run, as the internet develops faster, and technology with it, that musicians will begin to like downloading music even more.

First of all, the musicians we are stealing from generally have contracts with major labels. To bad for them, really, because yes, downloading their music really does lose them a lot of money. When you are signed to a major label you get advanced money based on how much money the label will be expecting you to make for them. Also, you pay for everything. Oh, sure you get an advance, but you have to pay for everything from the studio, to the packaging, you pay for you lawyer, you pay for distribution, you pay the fucking caterers.

Most artist for major labels actually end up owing money, a lot of money. In this scenario Brittany Spears has to shake her ass almost 365 days a year just to afford to pay all the people off that are working for her, so yes, by downloading her music you are taking money out of her pocket. In reality they live like rock stars but they are owned by the man. And woe be it if they want to switch labels, they have to buy their own freedom, or they cannot record anywhere else for a better deal.

Now, the pros, for musicians who are not signed to a major label are many. One, it’s free exposure. Two people who download the music might actually take an interest and buy the cd they distribute, thereby putting money in their personal pocket. MP3’s are the kind of exposure one cannot get on the radio. I love listening to new bands, and I’ve found, and gone on to buy lots of cd’s because I was able to find an artist I’d never heard of before.

For some it works. For the RIAA it doesn’t, because in a lot of ways it puts the power and the power to earn back into the hands of the non-rockstar, cutting out them the middle man. They like being the middle men. They don’t have to perform, they don’t have to pay for anything, and they are paid for by the artist. They make money being there, and so, for them MP3’s are a horrible system.

The music industry wasn’t all to happy about recordable cassettes and the radio, but I shall have to dig through my music history notes to site dates and what not.

In the long run, however, the artists will win, things will evolve, and the RIAA which is an outmoded dinosaur anyway will be forced to change.

For those of you still convinced that it is best to bow down to the might of the blanket law suiting of the American people, here is an expense list for a band that has made 3 million for the record company, and is still not making money:

Note the advances they get, compared to what they need to pay out, and their final take home pay:


The Big Advance: $ 250,000

Artist Pays:
Manager's cut: $ 37,500
Legal fees: $ 10,000
Recording Budget: $ 150,000
Producer's advance: $ 50,000
Studio fee: $ 52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $ 3,000
Recording tape: $ 8,000
Equipment rental: $ 5,000
Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000
Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000
Catering: $ 3,000
Mastering: $ 10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $ 2,000
Video budget: $ 30,000
Cameras: $ 8,000
Crew: $ 5,000
Processing and transfers: $ 3,000
Off-line: $ 2,000
On-line editing: $ 3,000
Catering: $ 1,000
Stage and construction: $ 3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000
Director's fee: $ 3,000
Album Artwork: $ 5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $ 2,000
Band fund: $ 15,000
New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000
New fancy professional guitars [2]: $ 3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000
Rehearsal space rental: $ 500
Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500
Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875
Bus: $ 25,000
Crew [3]: $ 7,500
Food and per diems: $ 7,875
Fuel: $ 3,000
Consumable supplies: $ 3,500
Wardrobe: $ 1,000
Promotion: $ 3,000
Tour gross income: $ 50,000
Agent's cut: $ 7,500
Manager's cut: $ 7,500
Merchandising advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Publishing advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
(Money they make for selling Records here)Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 =$3,000,000 (three million but wait...)
Gross retail revenue Royalty: [13% of 90% of retail]:$ 351,000
Less advance: $ 250,000
Producer's points: [3% less $50,000 advance]:$ 40,000
Promotional budget: $ 25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000

Bands Income: Net royalty: $ -14,000

Record company income:
Record wholesale price: $6.50 x 250,000 =$1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties: $ 351,000
Deficit from royalties: $ 14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution: @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000
Gross profit: $ 7l0,000

The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.

Record company: $ 710,000
Producer: $ 90,000
Manager: $ 51,000
Studio: $ 52,500
Previous label: $ 50,000
Agent: $ 7,500
Lawyer: $ 12,000
Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25 (Live that rock an roll life style baby!)

You can view the whole story of the above band at Here, written by Steve Albini

For more on the history of recording music check out this fantastic program by NPR that you can listen to online at Here.

One last thing to keep in mind. If the American people really want thier MP3's then they better make damn sure to vote. Yeah, the recording lobby is huge, but last time I checked KaZaa had over 3 million subscribers and that is a lot of votes if the people start to get there asses in gear. What we need is a grass roots movment to take back the music.

I want rockin roll baby.

 

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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 05:53 AM
Xaos: I disagree... government regulation of prices in a couple countries, social democracies, to be exact leads to several interesting things... Honestly a trruly regulated government allows everyone to be employed, have government supplied health care and everything is affordable... by regulating wages and not prices, the government completely negates the point of making a minimum wage at all by letting the average company bump up the price to compensate... ALTHOUGH... this is far from the point... though I think I might just have to do an article on this

Feral

BTW... when dessert storm started and the white house stepped in to regulate gasoline prices... EVERYONE (save the oil moguls) agreed...

 

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/>





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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 08:19 AM
Dessert storm? *snickers*

But when you regulate to that degree, aren't you just creating a socialist society?
And wouldn't that piss off a lot of businessmen and other types? You know, the types that pretty much own our government?

Oui... We need a revolution or two. Just for fun.

 

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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 08:55 AM
Feral Gasoline is a bit differant than CDs.

You won't see people panicking to get to Sam Goody to stock up on Back Street Boys CDs because the price is going up. You won't have lines going around the block because they are affraid that there won't be any CD's tommorrow.

 

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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 09:01 AM
I don't know about that, Xaoswolf... People these days...

But the market ISN'T regulating prices, especially with respect to cds... There's no controls. Lets say I want to buy Joe Rockstar's new cd. His label puts a twenty dollar price tag on it, since its a hot item. If I want to get Joe's music, I have to pay the twenty dollars. I can't go to a competitor somewhere else, because that's the only label Joe's got.
There's no price competition, which means the market system failed.

[Edited on 8/5/2003 by Ironboots]

 

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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 06:26 PM
Well, you can buy some Joe Knockoff CD's.

It's the same thing with that new $80 pair of Nikes. If you don't want to pay that much, you go to payless and get something similiar.

Also, the reason that the RIAA is having trouble is because they aren't following the market.

Lastly, what CD's are people buying that are costing over $20?

Seriously, I remember a few years ago when they were like $16, but most that I see now are under $13, unless you want an import.

 

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/>

Does that make me a bad person?

 

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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 08:48 PM
Yes, a socialist republic...

Gasoline, like cd's is defined as a commodity... something that the average person doesn't truly need.

THere are certain things that NEED to be price contrroled. I mean...Look at software these days... R&D is a lot of dosh, yes, but EACH COPY of windows solds is 100... Other single disc software packages run frrom 500 to 1,000... I'm not talking government policing, the public should stand up and say.. FUCK YOU... I'm not paying for Joe Rockstar's signing company to screw me up the ass anymore...

but we're off subject again.. the morality of it... where does it lie?

Feral

 

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/>
/>







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  posted on 5/8/2003 at 09:27 PM
I don't think this is a moral question so much as a legal one. The only things you're really running up against when you share mp3s are our current trademark, copyright, and intellectual property laws. Now I'm not saying that these laws are right or wrong, I'm just saying they're not the only way to do things.

For example, imagine a system where all recorded music was free to be shared and distributed. Musicians would continue to make a moderate income from touring, and they would have an incentive to make high quality recordings to pull in audiences for their shows. The musicians would probably make less money in this system (although the amount they make from a recording is suspect as mentioned in above posts), but can you think of any good musicians who are in it for the money? I think the argument that paying less for something inevitably leads to inferior quality falls apart when it comes to music.

On another note, the media industries always get full of doom and gloom when a new technology comes out. They said TV would kill movies, they said casette tapes were going to ruin the recording industry, they said VCR's were the apocalypse. Meanwhile I can get any book I want from the public library down the street for free (and sanctioned by the government no less), but we still have a publishing industry. Go figure.

[Any copying or distribution of this post without express written consent of the author is expressly prohibited]

 
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