As some may know there is a little debate going on in the Talk Box, it’s
all in the pursuit of gaining knowledge *for me it is* and so I hope you
all see it the same. Let’s begin the rants.
Hitler was ignored by America, by France, by Britain till he became to
powerful. I’m speaking in the general sense after he did take title of
dictator in Germany. (NOTE: We all know that he was thrown into prison
after trying to take control the first time around and thus he wasn’t
ignored by his own country.) Hussein is simply another madman with title of
dictator, possibly masturbating while watching his torture tapes made with
the use of his own people. Does he pose a nuclear or biological threat,
possibly. Should we attack on assumptions, no. We are in war mode however,
9/11 was only a taste of what is to come unless we didn’t act and I believe
Iraq may have more to do with 9/11/ and of financing terrorist operations
that one may expect. (If you think that I am using 9/11 and terrorism as my
only argument to attack Iraq, don’t. Oil is a practical reason...the people
there suffer everyday from Hussein’s iron grip and once we be rid of him,
we can actually help etc...)
Now, here again is the argument that we are attacking a weaker nation (or
”attacking our weaker neighbor”) who is in the spotlight. Also there’s the
comparison of Bush and America to the older Nazi regime. I see that as more
anti-this/that propaganda and find it laughable. We are not on a one set
tract to wipe out race A or race B, we have not taken away the rights of
other races. (although some lower unfair prejudices may arise from locals/
in airlines) There are not any concentration camps dedicated to the
genocide of race A or race B...the American nation has not done this in
modern times. (NOTE: This country was built on the blood of Native
Americans, we are all aware of that. To compare that to modern day affairs
is however, irrelevant.) We’ve seen THIS all before, though, across the
seas and hints of it in South America, time and time again.
- And the No.1 reason why I do invoke Hitler is because after reading Mein
Kampf you understand the man’s mode of thinking just alittle more than the
average dolt, saturated with propaganda. Does this mean I am a “Hitler
expert”, by no means.
However, if you’d want to say that I cannot assume anything about Hitler
because I do not know him on a personal level; excluding propaganda, then I
can say the same to you and your opinions on Bush and you on my opinions on
Hussein.- This argument simply flip-flops.
Going off topic for a second, anyone heard of that movie called “Max.” It’s
about Hitler, in his years as a artist, before he rose to power. It’s a
good watch if you can find it in theaters, it goes beyond the lines of
“black and white”, it attempts to explain him. http://filmforce.ign.com/moremovies/objects/34764.html<
br />
I'm not getting into this waste of time with you. You already have forums
started about Bush, Iraq or the so-called war on terrorism that you could
have posted this under. You have already demonstrated that you can give no
justification for US aggression that is not internally inconsistent, based
upon an ad populum call for vengeance and/or ethically unsound. You have
stated before when presented with an argument that you could not refute
that you refused to change your position regardless of any facts presented
and I am not going to waste my time presenting a case to someone who is
simply being petulant. Just like the antagonistic US foreign policy that
you keep endorsing, you have eroded your credibility by pursuing your
agenda at all costs and in the face of reasoned discourse. I will confine
all my future responses to those I feel are debating genuinely and are
capable of viewing an issue from more than a single side.
~Monolycus.
AloneSoul
Fanatic
Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 30/1/2003 at 04:52 PM
*shakes head* Ok, five points.
1) Being petulant? I did say anything offensive but apparently my *opinion*
is offensive to your omnipotent intelligence or to your perspective. I try
not to offend/ belittle anyone purposely or without justification and if I
did then forgive me.
2) Eroding my credibility? heh, Christ this is the internet, not real life.
3) I’ve repeated myself numerous times on why I believe we should go to war
in other threads and so I did not bother to do so again. If it seems that I
did then that is my mistake. The facts are thin and I even said that this
is a touchy issue to find the reasons for a preemptive strike. To refute
another’s opinion on this issue with a lack of evidence is difficult and so
this is a debate of opinions...but then again, many debates are.
I thought you made a good argument, Alone... I do not remember any
badgering/closemindedness in the other War on Iraq forum, and I'm too lazy
to go look. But as this discussion was transferred over from the talkbox
(to which I am also ignorant. I have no idea what was said, since its
probably gone now.)
I partially agree that Bush is not Hitler. For one, Bush is too dumb.
(sorry, cheap shot, I know... )
But seriously, I think he resembles Mussolini more... Fascism seems to suit
him. And, with the inbalance of republicans in congress, its -almost- like
a dictatorship.
Of course there is the question, where is the line between fascism and
patriotism?
I'm not sure, but I think Bush has crossed the line.... He does whatever he
wants, without thinking of the possible effects from our friends. He
declares that it is America's duty as the number one power to police the
rest of the world. Mussolini wanted to restore the Roman Empire to its
former glory. Bush seems to want to create a new American Empire, complete
with pax Americana (which is a lofty ideal).
Get rid of terrorism, he says, with the 'War on Terror'. Right. Just like
we got rid of drugs with the 'War on Drugs'.
AloneSoul
Fanatic
Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 30/1/2003 at 06:49 PM
Agreed. *especially with the stupidity part on Bush/ the War on Terrorism
slogan being over used.* ...America though has been a expansionist nation
but we haven’t over stepped our bounds to the point of totalitarianism. (I
believe in that the ideals that are government {by the people, for the
people} are running alive and well today. Democracy is something which we
want to spread.)
Sometimes I wonder if Dick were president and Bush was vice, would there
EVEN be a change in how the situations after 9/11 would be handled? Perhaps
Bush has taken more of the role of puppet than I'd though. - Still I am
curious to see how the country will turn out after he is done his term. You
never know what will happen in the time of 2(?) years.
f">
HREF="http://www.pathetic.org/library.php?i_memberid=2042">
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 30/1/2003 at 08:50 PM
All I can say is holy fucking shit. Life is a video game to you people,
isn't it? "This is the internet, not real life". You are talking about
signing the death warrants for THOUSANDS OF IRAQI HUMAN BEINGS here because
you have gotten it into your head that Hussein is a "...madman... possibly
masturbating while watching his torture tapes made with the use of his own
people". And Ironboots... you think THAT is a "good argument"??? Am I
even sharing the same planet as you sociopaths?
If you are such a scholar of history, Alone, then you know perfectly well
that we DID have concentration camps in the USA for Japanese Americans in
the 1940's and that the INS has recently been expanded to tag people of
Arabic/middle eastern extraction so that we can assemble concentration
camps again quickly in the coming, entirely manufactured, conflict. You
also think that it is irrelevant to talk about our massacre of the peoples
and cultures of America in the 1700's but entirely on topic to compare
someone that you don't like to a defunct government from more than a half
century ago in a nation that is only peripherally involved at best to the
question at hand?? Since you are such an astute historian, you are also
perfectly aware that Nazi Germany's race policies were based on American
and British eugenicist's policies during the 1920's and 1930's in which
thousands of Americans were sterilized... but, as you have been so quick to
point out, only the bad things done by non-Americans are relevant to the
debate. Therefore, we can only talk about the bad things that we SUSPECT
Saddam Hussein might have done to the Iraqi people and can not mention the
cobalt-iodine bombs that the USA dropped on them during Desert Storm or the
recently uncovered fact that we buried wounded Iraqi soldiers alive in mass
graves during that conflict so that there would be no photographs of Iraqi
casulaties on American televisions. We should not mention that the United
States filtered weapons to Iranians during the 1980's to kill these Iraqis
that Hussein has allegedly treated so poorly. It is irrelevant that the
CIA issued a statement that there are no known weapons of mass destruction
in Iraq, but IF there were, they would be unlikely to be used unless Iraq
were first attacked. It is irrelevant to mention that the ONLY country to
ever use nuclear weapons in anger is the United States. All that is
relevant is to compare Hussein to Adolf Hitler to sway public opinion and
justify killing more Iraqis... and even though you find such an argument
laughable and childish when applied to your hero Bush the Younger, I would
urge you to remember that YOU WERE THE ONE WHO STARTED IT.
This is all a big game to you. You are either willfully ignorant of the
facts (in the same way that a fundamentalist Christian is incapable of
accepting things that aren't in the Bible), or you are genuinely jazzed
about the idea that people are going to die and you will get the
opportunity to see it. In either case, there is no getting through to you
unless it involves a contest to see who can shit the most red, white and
blue. Here's something to upset your little paradigm... if democracy were
something we were interested in spreading globally, we would be a
democratic country. A scholar of history such as yourself should know that
we are not and never have been... but I guess they don't teach you things
like that in Duke Nukem 3D (or whatever your latest bloodbath-based pastime
is... oh, I remember, Desert Storm 2D).
Man, I am just gonna kick it and watch the teeth fly.
I would kill for a copy of a celebrity death match of this. Seriously.
____________________ Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
AloneSoul
Fanatic
Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 30/1/2003 at 11:36 PM
Fine! Here we go again. (I said I won’t repeat myself due to the fucking
spiral this debate has become.)
Yes, I remember now that we did have concentration camps for the Japanese
during WWII, that was my mistake.
Bush isn’t my hero, not a chance in hell, don’t assume that.
This isn’t a game to me, it’s a fucking discussion that I’ve been over
before. - THAT IS IT! - I for one cannot start or stop a war with my single
opinion in this site. I have not signed the death warrant of any person in
that country, our government did that. I do not walk around with signs in
bold print proclaiming to “NUKE IRAQ”.
This conversation over the internet; I try to at least remind people, is
not taken so damn seriously. I wonder sometimes if you even realize
that.
Oh yeah, I haven’t played Duke3d in about five or six years. I haven’t
really had times for games lately since college and working are what make
up my days. Also, I never once said I was a fucking expert in history or
ANYTHING of those matters. How often have I been screaming out that this is
a conversation of opinions? Don’t make fucking god damn assumptions on me
(or on the other person you mentioned) based by a few things that I have
discussed here or that you’ve read from me before. You don’t know me beyond
a fucking monitor.
*sits back*
And try not to sprout gray hairs over this issue, stress kills.
I'm done.
f">
HREF="http://www.pathetic.org/library.php?i_memberid=2042">
/>
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 12:42 AM
I've read everything on this particular forum, and now I'm going to voice
my own personal opinions.
(1) I normally try to vote for the independent party nominee in most
elections of any kind when available, for the simple reason that the last
time I felt "party loyal" was when Reagan ran for re-election as U.S.
President, and it was the first year I could legally vote. I genuinely
admired the man, and I've not admired anyone who's followed after, and I
mean that in all sincerity.
(2) I am loyal to my country, and I respect the office of president, but
this does not mean I have to like the president himself or what he says.
This is why congress is there, to help curb some of the things that the
general public objects to. Bush has possibly been given, the means by
which to become a dictator in his own right. I think I would rather have a
suave, well-spoken, well-read puppet president in office who at least made
the U.S. look good to the world, than one of the more ignorant men to have
risen from the sludge and slime to go forth and make us look like a country
full of imbeciles. I'm not stating to whom I refer or if I refer to a real
person, because of the simple fact that big brother is
actually...everywhere...and it's not paranoia anymore.
(3) If a friggin president wants a blow-job and it helps him do his job
better, and everyone involved is a willing participant, then for crying out
loud who the hell cares and quit wasting my tax money on trying to find out
who does care. At least the last president was able to coast his way
through without this much actual harm to the country. I think it's okay to
have sex, but apparently there are a few who've taken office that seem to
think sex doesn't have to exist, and maybe they'd be a little happier and
think a lot clearer if they'd get over saying have all the babies that you
can and someone will raise them for you. Abortion does, in my opinion,
sometimes have it's place.
I'd hate to see it outlawed again, and that is my opinion and I have every
right to have that opinion.
(4) I have immense respect for the men and women who serve in the armed
forces in any capacity selflessly giving their life and limb for whatever
cause without hesitation. They deserve respect and honor if it's done under
order, even if the person ordering them is a complete fool. The
responsibility for the order falls on the higher ups in that case. This is
of course assuming orders are being obeyed as opposed to sick whims that a
loose canon might take upon himself or herself to do on their own.
(5) I believe in a well-fortified defense...get that...defense. That means
if we are threatened...not the one's threatening...then we should be
well-armed to show them not to mess with us. Them being whoever might be
threatening.
(6) I do not believe we are supposed to be the world's boyscouts or
superheros. If a country isn't asking for our help, then stop offering it
when it's unwanted. Period.
(7) We are in fact...a republic...not a democracy. So I am just as confused
as those who've posted here before in regards to why anyone would think
this is a democracy.
(8) We are allowed here in the U.S. many more freedoms and the ability to
earn more money, than many other countries on this planet. This does not
mean we are truly free. We have opression here. Tons of it. The expressions
"physician heal thyself" and "charity begins at home" are very appropriate
in our case. Start here, and if we fix ourselves someday, then maybe others
in the world will take note and do the same.
(9) I am an American by birth and therefore am proud of my birthplace. I
see nothing wrong with being proud of the country you were born in, even in
times of us appearing ridiculous to other countries. My goodness how does
anyone survive adulthood if you worry over what everyone else thinks about
you.
(10) I know we've done many of the same things in this country that we
accuse other countries of doing. I'm not blind to this and it amazes me
when it seems so much of the general population thinks we are some sort of
innocent little country. We have detained people for no reason other than
their ethnical appearance, just like those "other" countries who do the
same. We also expect our laws to be obeyed by foreigners, but some of the
U.S. citizens travelling and living abroad seem to forget that other
countries and cultures have their own set of rules and ways of doing
things. If we can do as we do here, they can do as they do there, whether
it pleases us or not. It's shameful that torture happens, but in some
cultures what we view as torture is just how they punish or interrogate. I
hope to never know these things first hand, but I am a law abiding citizen
myself.
Okay, I'm done with my speech, and will climb off the soapbox now to let
the next speaker have a go at it.
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before." ~Mae West
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 01:31 AM
I am not going to leave this with shouts of "You don't know me!" while the
crowd chants "Jer-ry! Jer-ry!"... although I accept the blame for having
set the tone for it by losing my temper. The problem here is that this is
not an opinion poll, it is a discussion forum. We are not advancing
articles of faith, we are debating the merits of logical propositions.
If you tell me that it is your opinion that we should go to war, there is
nothing that I can say to that except to suggest creative places where you
can stick your opinion. On the other hand, if you suggest that it is your
proposition that we should go to war, then I demand that you provide
premises that are both necessary and sufficient to validate that
proposition. There is a world of difference between defending your
position and the pigheaded refusal to concede a point.
Further, there is no difference between a discussion that occurs in person,
on the telephone or online. Unless I am speaking to a computer program, a
fundamentalist, or a particularly self-absorbed brick, I expect the rules
of discourse to apply. I think that a feature article describing what
actually constitutes reasoned discourse might be in the works.
~M.
Starlight
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 618 Registered: 27/9/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 02:06 AM
Just to be certain that I was not contributing in an inappropriate manner
to this particular forum, I've looked up a few words in a dictionary. I
wanted to be certain in case I was being accused of ignorance, which I may
or may not have been being accused of, that I was indeed making a
contribution falling within the proper realms of definitions of certain
words. More for my own piece of mind than anything else.
For everyone's enjoyment the following are a few definitions in full
according to one copy of Webster's Dictionary:
"forum" - the public place meeting in ancient Rome, where the law courts,
public offices, etc., were situated; hence, a place of public resort, or
court of law.
"debate" - to contend for in words or arguments; meditate upon; deliberate
together: to argue or discuss a point; reflect: contention in words or
argument; controversy; discussion.
"discourse" - speech or language; conversation; a treatise or dissertation;
sermon: to talk or converse; utter: communicate orally.
In essence, I gave a "sermon" (albeit written as opposed to verbose) in
which I "reflected" on some points in a "discussion" in a "place of public
resort". Appears I met the guidelines. *whew...sigh of relief*
____________________ "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've
never
tried before." ~Mae West
Schizo
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 897 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 04:35 AM
As for Bush or Hussein being Hitler, I don't have much of an opinion
because I, admittedly, am ignorant. Same goes for war.
Neither Bush nor Hussein are the anti-christ. They're human. They do some
things right, and other things wrong. Personally, I think Bush is a
fanatic and Hussein is an asshole. And Hitler was a lunatic. All
potentially dangerous in their own ways.
But just because something is dangerous, doesn't mean it should necessarily
be obliterated. Hey, after all, life is dangerous. I suppose we could all
lie in bed and be safe, but then, who knows? The roof might cave in.
Personally, I lean to the thought that we should attack Iraq only if they
break their agreement to disarm. They WERE ordered to disarm after Desert
Storm, weren't they? Being a parent, I feel it's important to follow
through with threatened disiplinary action.
But I also admit that I am very far from knowing all about the situation,
so I hold my opinions lightly.
I don't see what America's past mistakes have to do with this. I'd hate to
have all my screw-ups shoved in my face everytime I had a decision to make.
Unless, of course, I was repeating my mistakes.
What I do have an opinion about is that a person should not be berated for
holding a different opinion. A person should not be berated for not
knowing something. If instruction is necessary, then instruction can be
given. But not with a sledgehammer. That's just inviting blind
resistance. I consider myself a pretty reasonable person, but even I can
get pig-headed when someone's putting me down while enlightening my
ignorance.
Mono, I have a huge amount of respect for you and your opinions. You do
your research, and I think that's very commendable. But in this forum,
your tone drowned out your point. And I think that's sad.
I know I could research the situation more. Perhaps I should. Perhaps I
would think differently. But it doesn't seem to me that it matters much
what my opinion is. I don't have a lot of say in the matter. I don't even
vote. I have been so sickened by politics and politicians that they all
leave me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I refuse to vote for any of
them. Besides, I don't have time for research.
So I'm left with my main feeling about the whole Iraq thing, the desperate
hope that my favorite cousin in the Army doesn't get sent out there. Am I
selfish? Almost certainly. Oh well.
I DO think that America is going overboard with this anti-terror thing.
But how far overboard? I don't know. Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the
president. That must be a horribly stressful job in these days, and I'm
sure Bush feels it, whether we feel he's making huge mistakes or not. He's
human, not the devil incarnate.
Anyway, I gotta go!
____________________ "You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"
AloneSoul
Fanatic
Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 05:10 AM
Agreed with the first paragraph and the last sentence of the second M. As
for rules of online discourse, I am content with the ideas that no racist
remarks (personal attacks) or purposely offensive remarks to another person
should be used in my debates. I guess one could add in the rule of “no
stupidity” but that varies *sometimes* from eye to eye and what’s clear to
you is clear to you.
Don’t really see myself as a self-absorbent brick, more of a nihilistic
concrete wall. *laughs and grins*
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
Dolorosa
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 856 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 10:36 AM
alright...lessee,
1. When it comes to Chemical or Nuclear threat...assumptions ARE death
warrants.
2. Lately I don't think wiping out shitloads of people would be cool...I
know thats weird coming from me, but shit...as often as my opinions
flip-flop, this one's kinda' persistant lately. They suffer as much
propaganda-fed knowledge as we do...
3. I don't like Saddam, at all...maybe thats propaganda's influence,
whatever. I believe America should do a spot, third-party,
mostly-untraceable assassination of the guy.
4. I like Bush, I'm glad I'm not in his position and I truly believe he is
doing what he feels is right...however, if he's going to do something, I
wish he'd just do it.
5. I, personally...am tired of seeing these threads...can't we just dig up
and extend the old one?
6. When it comes down to daily life...who the fuck cares?
7. When it comes down to global life...why the fuck do we care?
And that isn't meant as obnoxiously as it may seem.
____________________ In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King
VampCourt
Fanatic
Posts: 293 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 11:16 AM
Kay heres my little rant...
Im not saying North Korea is like hitler and the nazi regime or anything..
but.. um.. have any of you people seen the footage of the North Korean
troops goosestepping? I think thats kind of scary. But sadly this is a
country who offers food to you if you join the 'force.
As for the rest of the arguments going on here with hitler/bush argument..
To quote Ironboots "I partially agree that Bush is not Hitler. For one,
Bush is too dumb." You cant really say if you know the level of the
presidents intelligence or not. I might agree with you on that factore, but
i cannot because i cant tell wether his actions and his words are his or
somebody elses. He's a smart one alright when it comes to money. thats for
sure. He finding ways to make it look like he's doing something good with
the cash, but rather it seems he wants the rich to get richer and the poor
to get poorer.
Have any of you noticed that the poverty level, unemployment level is alot
of more severe now, then say.. oh i dont know, the great depression? Do you
know what bush's answer is to this situation? he is going to give tax cuts
to people that make over 250k a year. thats right folks the rich dont get
taxed because they are rich. and whats his excuse?? So that they can put
the money twards thier small businesses for people to people to have more
jobs. Have these people with thier so called "tax cut" Put money twards
thier businesses? Absolutly not! oh no no no. They have put that cash
twards crummy little investments.. things that wont do shit for the
econemy. Not only that.. he wants more SUV's to be purchased. no taxes on
those either ladies and gentleman... why? because they use more OIL.. more
GASOLINE!!! if more oil and gasoline is used.. all the more reason to go
and get on hussiens back.. fuck.. the mans got greys desiese fro christ
sakes.. he's gonna be hell bent on attacking iraq no matter what.
I also heard something about him wanting all the troops to save thier sperm
if they do indeed go off to war. If this indeed is true, Then i can
identify him with hitler because hotler made his troops have sex with the
lot of the women in germany before they went off to war. this is scary.
this is a scary time because this country is being lead by a very
dangerouse person.
I cant say hes a smart man, I can say he's concieted... i can say he's
money grubbing and selfish... I can say he's going to get us all killed...
____________________ "Thou shalt not be afraid of the dark, nor of graveyards nor ghosts nor the
devil, for thou art scarey and mean." -The Goth commandments
VampCourt
Fanatic
Posts: 293 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 11:21 AM
wooo! bad typing. sorry about the awful typos.. i wrote that out pretty
quick..
____________________ "Thou shalt not be afraid of the dark, nor of graveyards nor ghosts nor
the
devil, for thou art scarey and mean." -The Goth commandments
Monolycus
Fanatic
Posts: 580 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 01:54 PM
Starlight: I was not referring to your contribution. It was fine as far as
I could tell.
Schizo: I'm sorry that my tone offended you, but your comment only
addressed "opinions" again. If what I or anyone else proposes is valid,
then it will be justifiable no matter what tone it is presented in. I
don't care about "opinions". I care about critical analysis. Defending
"opinions" is a waste of everyone's time, especially if you have
established that your opinion is not going to be changed. (You have not
personally done that, but I have seen "debates" here conclude with words
like "Well, yes, that's all true, but I don't care.")
Dolo: I am not entirely sure what you were trying to say here.
Court: Don't worry about typos, we all make them. The only problem that I
had with what you wrote was raising an alarm over the goose-stepping and
the enticements used by the North Korean Army. Goose-stepping is a pretty
widely used military marching formation (not here) and doesn't really
indicate anything. Also, they lure people into the military with bait
everywhere in the world. Here, they use college tuitions and recruiters
who will promise you everything up to a movie deal if you sign on; in North
Korea, they use the promise that you will remain fed. It's sad, but it
happens.
Alone: As I said to Schizo, if your argument is logically consistent and
stands to reason, it doesn't make any difference if you use intentionally
offensive language or not. Civility dictates that we not try to offend one
another, but that has nothing to do with critical debate. We do not have
to be civil to be correct (unless you are trying to be "politically
correct". I am not.) You do not "win" a genuine argument by shouting down
your opponent; the only way one "wins" a debate is to demonstrate the
flaw(s) in their opponent's argument. If we are able to enlarge our
understanding through critical discourse, we are all "winners". If, on the
other hand, we try to adjust the facts to suit our "opinions" instead of
the other way around, we are definitely losers. If it can be demonstrated
to me that I have engaged in fallacious thinking (it has happened), I am
prepared to amend my conclusions accordingly... and I expect others to do
the same. Otherwise, all of this becomes nothing more than an exercise in
stupidity.
~M.
Ironboots
Extreme Fanatic
Posts: 893 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 02:34 PM
Monolycus: From your comment to Schizo, I realize why you were so uptight.
You and I have different ideas of what the definition of 'argument' is, and
that got a bit in the way. I believe that an argument is just a statement
of one's opinion with good facts behind it. By my definition, Alone's post
was a good opening argument. She/He stated her position and gave reasons
why. I don't see how it could be a -bad- argument...
Either way, you know (or should know) that I do not support this war in the
least. Its ridiculous to attack for oil/revenge (which is what it boils
down to), and I know that this could very well end up killing us all
(because of something Saddam does in reaction to the US threat).
There is quite a balance of opinions here, Mono. And if I and others here
have a closed mind, then its our loss. We're just having an exchange of
ideas. Not an opinion-changing forum.
Court: Exactly! (except for the part about the economy. I don't think its
-that- bad (akin to the Great Depression).
AloneSoul
Fanatic
Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 03:12 PM
Agreed Court. We do have the tools to start a new line of vehicles that use
other sources of fuel, the oil companies however don’t want to lose
business. Avarice is the root of all evil, no?
Agreed M but I’m not going for the “win” in a debate like this. More or
less, I’m going to see how other people react to a opposing idea, offensive
or not. I think I can say that this condition has been satisfied, although
the output of the argument was not what I wanted to see...but it happens
every so often here.
- I’m not trying to be politically correct...political correctness, ack,
that’s when a guy gets fired from his job at a funeral home for using the
phrase “god bless you and god bless America” during a military funeral.
They didn’t want to offend Jews or Muslims...yes, I swear to god that is a
true story. It gained some momentum around here.
- heh, I think it’s safe to assume that most here do not approve of PC.
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
VampCourt
Fanatic
Posts: 293 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
posted on 31/1/2003 at 05:28 PM
hey monolycus,
"The only problem that I had with what you wrote was raising an alarm over
the goose-stepping and the enticements used by the North Korean Army.
Goose-stepping is a pretty widely used military marching formation (not
here) and doesn't really indicate anything."
I think its a leee-ttle bit strange that the footage they show on
television of the korean troops, are them.. goosstepping in large groups...
I didnt say they were the ONLY group of people using that form of march..
but i tend to think its a little scary that footage scene on television of
a country threatening us, looks like a symbolism of the past.
And yes, the military does indeed bait people. I am aware of this. but i
was only stating that i think its sad that people have the choice of either
starving or joining the military for food.
Not jumpin on your back.. just clearing some things up..
And ironboots, its not that bad? You should pay more attention...
____________________ "Thou shalt not be afraid of the dark, nor of graveyards nor ghosts nor
the
devil, for thou art scarey and mean." -The Goth commandments