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Author: Subject: What do you think about it?

Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 26/12/2002 at 01:27 AM
Since I'm kind of in the life-long process of creating my own bastard religion, I'm kind of curious about what other people here think about divinity, morality, and the origin of all things. (Those being what seem to be the core issues of religion.) We've got some pretty original thinkers here, so I think this could be interesting.

To start things off, here's what I think.

I think that Something out there started everything, but I don't care how. I just know that such beauty didn't just happen. I think there was an intelligence involved in the making of the universe. I think that everything has a spirit (i.e. a conscious energy), even seemingly inanimate objects. I think that we are intended to live in a way that honors the spirits around us. Even when something must be destroyed, like a plant that was uprooted to build a road, or to be eaten, it can be done in a way that honors the spirit of that plant, and in that way the spirit lives on in the thing that it was destroyed to create or sustain. I believe that some spirits fail to honor the spirits they come in contact with, and from this comes all the true sorrows and pains of the world. It is necessary at times to protect ourselves and others from those that would damage our spirits. Sometimes to the point of destroying the offending spirit, in extreme cases. This, of course, must only be done with extreme caution and humility, lest we should become like the thing we are trying to stop.

You know, I really haven't thought it through in quite these words before. I'm trying to distill my views into the simplest form possible, and it has just opened my mind to a new idea. Perhaps all spirits are part of a larger spirit. The spirit of a stone may be a small part of the spirit of the mountain it is imbedded in, which is in turn a part of the spirit of the land the mountain rests in, which is a part of the planet that the land is on. The planet is part of the spirit of the solar system, which is part of the spirit of the galaxy, which is part of the spirit of the universe. If this is true, then is there a separate Great Spirit that made the universe, or is the Great Spirit actually the spirit of the universe itself, the spirit of all things that are?

Unfortunately, people have become confused, and drawn distant from the harmony of spirit that was intended. The rise of industry has put a barrier between us and our natural sources of life. Modern law has distorted the natural control of dishonoring spirits. Religion has warped the consciousness of the ways of spirits, and driven many to deny the existence of spirit entirely. What was once a true and steady rhythm is now halting, faint, and broken. Many spirits are deeply withdrawn and almost impossible to reach to honor properly. Most people must do great dishonor to many spirits, and depend on the results of others dishonor, just to survive.

I myself feel this crumbling rhythm, and it makes me deeply sorrowful. I am constantly searching for ways to contact the spirits of those who surround me, both human and otherwise, and honor them in the old way, but I am distracted by the strength of the impersonal rhythm of modern life. I long to get away from it all and live the way I was intended to, but I can't, and even if I could get away, I don't know how to survive without the conveniences that impersonality brings. The new rhythm is strong, and it is not going away. I know I must live with it, and find a way to bring the tatters of the old rhythm together in it, in a way that will ease the discord.

Reading back over this, it all seems kind of mystic and earth-mother-ish. I don't know, maybe I am really an earth-mother at heart, and have become goth only because the world today really doesn't allow me to truly follow my heart. I think that leaves me in a state of constant mourning. And it's not that I think that modern technology is evil, just that the way it is used is corrupt. It seems you can't do anything anymore without feeding off of someone's cruelty or greed or dishonesty. The way I survive is to numb myself to the ugliness of it all, and try my hardest to find things that go back to the source, that haven't been filtered through the filthy hands of businessmen and other cretins. Things like a candleflame, a cloud over the moon, my baby's smile, the way my boyfriend takes care of me when I'm sick.

It seems that, in humans, the spirit runs closer to the surface than in most other things. It seems that everything else is to some extent at our mercy. Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like without humans. Perhaps it would be happier. But I also think it would be bored. I think the world needs us, an essential part of the rhythm, and as long as there is one person who still pays attention to that rhythm, that it is not all in vain.

Well, that's my high-faluting theory! Anyone else? (you don't have to be as long-winded!)



Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 26/12/2002 at 03:54 AM
Divinity, morality and the origin of all things huh? Hmm, I don't have much of an idea about the origin of life... I believe that there is a spirit, an essence out there that is part of everything, but I don't know whether this *created* everything.

Divinity - I believe there is a God and a Goddess, both being part of the spirit, or the all. I see divinity in this way because it's easiest for me to relate to and so work with, however I don't think that everyone needs to worship a God and Goddess, or any Gods at all. I think all Gods in creation are, essentially, the spirit, just seen in different ways to suit the person worshipping it. I also believe in different pantheons of Gods and Goddesses, such as the Celtic, Roman and Egyptian Gods. I think each of these divine beings are part of the God or Goddess but represent a more specific facet of the God/dess. Like there is a God of fertility, a Goddess of love and so on. When I'm working magick this way of seeing the God/desses makes it easier for me to work with the energy they represent.

Morality. Hmm. I'm Pagan, I'm beginning to debate whether I'd call myself Wiccan. I don't believe in the threefold law. I see no reason to. It was invented by Gardener and was probably not even meant to be taken terribly seriously. This doesn't mean I excuse myself from morals - I just don't hide behind a law - I don't hurt people because I don't *want* to, not because I'm not allowed to. This doesn't mean that I won't at some time in the future though. I'm not going to say I'll never hurt anyone else, because that is rather unrealistic. However, I don't think that the law of return is going to come up and bite me on the arse. I think there must be a balance in everything - light and dark, day and night, good and bad. Inside us all there is a good side and a bad side. I think that if you try to hide the bad side away, never giving vent to your feelings when you're angry or upset, then you're going to damage yourself. It isn't *natural* to be happy all the time, and if you try to act in that way you're going to have trouble dealing when bad stuff happens. Likewise, if you don't acknowledge the capability within yourself for hurting people then when you need to release those feelings you won't be able to because you've pretended they aren't even there. Instead of finding a healthy and non-harmful outlet for them they'll just bubble under the surface of your personality, and I wouldn't like to be around you when you snap.


Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 26/12/2002 at 03:58 PM
I am not sure about the origin of all as well. I follow more of a scientological perspective here, believing in the big bang and evolution, but even that does not explain it all. For one, where did the big bang come from? Man will never know. At least at his present level of intelligence.

All that really concerns me is the Earth. Its my home, your home, and everyone I know's home. Its just the natural place for us. I don't know why.

I agree with Schizo in that all evil results from both minor and large gaps in respect for living things. The man who chops down a forest solely to make money is evil. The game hunter who kills animals for 'sport' is evil. Even like Schizo said, the roadbuilders who tear up the plants are evil.
For the most part, I think we are all forgiving of minor offences. It does not make them right, though, and they all contribute to a larger world of disrespect.

As for spirits, I'm not quite sure. I know there's more than meets the eye, but most of the time humans are too distracted to see it in others. This is partly responsible for disrespect. To recognize this invisible element is to value them (not money value. Life value)

Basically, it boils down to two rules of life.
1. Smile.
2. Smile on others.

Post Script: Schizo, you wrote a kickass creed right there...


Piggy's got the Conch!



Posts: 170
Registered: 6/6/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 26/12/2002 at 09:25 PM
When asked about my religion I normally say Dark Pagan because it's easiest and people will leave it at that. However I also follow some branches of the green path and I'm an okay healer (which is sometimes considered part of the 'light'). I'm basically the same with Psyche except I'm probably never going to call myself Wiccan (well who knows?) and our morals are basically the same.


"Pity no one was there
No angels in the air
And the morning paper ran
One more suicide"


Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 26/12/2002 at 11:50 PM
I just stick with satanism...it's easy, it's fun, and it's brutally honest. Mostly because I didn't have to change a goddamned thing about myself to make it work.
It's peppered with some other ideas of my own...but I stick to the main line of "no diety. I worship me. I blame me. I am my own."
Plus, NOBODY gets down like the devil *chicka BOW BOW chicka chicka*

The way I figure it is this:
SOMETHING happened....I seriously just CAN'T make myself believe, as much as I would LIKE to, that SOMETHING/ONE started it all. The right blobs of gaseous things marauding around a blah somewhat vaccuous pre space..uh space..ran into each other and went blammy. Set things in motion that just happened, of all things, to work out a gazillion eons later and put us where we are today.
As for humanity itself, we didn't come from monkeys or even apes, but somewhere millions of years ago we did share a common ancestor...a primate neither ape nor human. We just developed different needs to our enviroment and well...just took the idea and ran with it.
OR...(big fat OR) something/one flipped the switch.
I just can't make myself believe this, but hey....I wasn't there.
Religion BEGAN as a means for primitive minds to explain the fearful, the wonderful, the stupifying....and like we always did before, took the idea and RAN like the dickens.
Or perhaps it's a sort of racial memory...genetically encoded in our brains to think about it and wonder and try to understand, JUST nagging RIGHT out of our grasp until the moment of death.

It's a sticky wicket....I don't bother with it one way or another because I'll know when I'm fertilizer.

I think you should start up your bastard religion....churches are tax free you know
I'm starting mine....the self-absorbed satanic vegans for the worship of the god of soy....eat tofutti, as it is of his very flesh...uh byproduct.


Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 27/12/2002 at 08:18 AM
Naah, I don't think I want to start my own religion, as sweet as getting out of taxes sounds. I feel very strongly that people should figure it out for themselves, and not take it spoon-fed from someone else, however wise.

Yeah, study other religions, even practice them for a bit to get their flavor. Stick with it if you like the feel of it. Every one has a little something that none of the others have that may help you figure things out.

I suppose it really isn't that necessary even to care anything about origins, or have a well-thought-out morality. Some people just don't care, and just want to live their lives.

I guess since I started out so religion (i.e. Christianity)-focused, the natural progression is to first, realize I really don't agree with what I've been taught, and next, try to figure out, what the hell DO I think?

Thus my great quest to figure out what's going on out there.


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/12/2002 at 09:24 PM
This reminds me of stephen hawkings "the origin of the universe" or something like that....THE smartest man on the face of the earth even said "There are some things that man just cannot know".

And you don't have to spoon feed people to get out of taxes darlin. Start a ? church...you know, us "?" as your name, like prince, say it's only pronounceable by YOU and if YOU don't know how to say it YOU'RE not gonna TELL THEM (that'll REALLY irritate people). Then once a week or once a month you have a potluck, everyone sits around and bullshits, drops cash in the collection urinal, and goes home.

by the way schitz, it's fucking FABULOUS to have you back


Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.


Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/12/2002 at 08:14 AM
Thanks, Bettie! It's fucking fabulous to BE back!

I'm driving my boyfriend batty hogging the computer and trying to catch up on everything that's happened in Shmeng since I was last here! I swear on my grandmother's grave, I will never be computerless again! (knock on wood!)

You know what? It's hard to type with a baby on your lap! Riley gets jealous of the computer!


Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/12/2002 at 12:54 AM
I bet it's as difficult as a cat or a rat vying for your attention.
Mine go crazy.
Every try typing with a nosy rat in your sleeve? Requires much dexterity, I tell you that.
I've tried the computer thing with my sister's baby, and yes.....they don't like it much

I missed our dear mother confessor and ass chewer a LOT.
It meas a lot to me and I'm sure countless others here to see your name in the mix again.
We missed you darlin


Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.



Posts: 522
Registered: 6/7/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/1/2003 at 05:14 AM
Divinity: This has a thin line between delusion and reality, trick and truth. Some people can convince themselves and others that they are a god upon the earth.
Truth: Divinity, nirvana, these can be achieved with the aid of whatever your beliefs are. Religious or not.
Trick: Zealots, fascism...mass religious organizations bent on control rather than the enhancement of their followers lives. You cannot achieve enhancement with a total dictatorship of the mind and body.

Morality: The ultimate jest in which life/reality subjects us to or a journey towards enlightenment...I cannot tell which one is for certain, even with my beliefs.

Origins: I personally believe there is a power at work beyond science, beyond explanation. I believe there is a god, a spirit, forces of good and evil at work.
...I don’t believe in things such as fate- I don’t like the thought of having my life preset from the start.


but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living


Posts: 213
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/1/2003 at 07:34 AM
I am a speck of dust on a grain of sand on a long beac that stretches to infinity.

Divinity is merely the next step beyond mortality; but they are all nothing. All that they control is merely upon this single grain of sand. The secret chiefs of the world have declared me to be both sexier than Buddha and harder than Jesus. I cannot die.

Morality is simply the code you use to keep your sanity in tact no matter how much you defile on a path of some kind of divinity. THe larger and more complex your code, the more difficult it becomes to explain to others and the more horrible things you can fit under it while still keeping your sanity relatively in tact. I, for instance, could kill, organleg, and sell the corpse of a child to necrophile artists for money and still be justified in my code.

Origins are the most difficult thing to explain if you believe in the ultimate power of divinity. Atheists have an easy time; a hyperdense globe of matter explodes for reasons possibly unknown and begins to expand wildly outward, while all within it begins to swirl in chaos, life being born of microparticles and haphazard and almost unbelievable accidents of forces within that globe. Others believe tha big white oppressor is sitting up somewhere in a robe playing "who's got the bigger dick" games with people he created on earth out of sheer boredom.
Under those two glaringly different perspectives, I'll split the difference and side with Calvin: "I believe time is non-linear, therefore I cannot do this math homework."


Make way for the bad guy!


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 2/1/2003 at 07:21 PM
If life is preset (ie: destiny) then someone tell me where to find the fucking RESET button. Maybe I can take a video editing class, cut the bad shit, paste the good shit, and START OVER!

*starts poking random spots* it's gotta be here somewhere.....


Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 27/5/2002
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  posted on 2/1/2003 at 10:51 PM
Oh man, how long do yoo want mee to speak for?

Alright, I'm coming back and replying when I can really sit down and write for a while.


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 2/1/2003 at 11:54 PM
Alright sushi breath, let it FLY brotha!


Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.


Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 27/5/2002
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  posted on 3/1/2003 at 03:32 AM
Alright, I'm gonna go on one tyraid at a time:

Any kind of spiritual method of thinking has to begin with one qustion: What do yoo believe? Is the whole of yor exsistance chemical reactions and physical processes or is there something more? i.e. Is there such a thing as the spirit.

If yoo believe there is no spirit or soul, that consciousness is an illsuion of electro/chemical reactions, physical processes, predictable stimuli, and nothing more then nothing really matters does it? So why not go out and rob and rape and kill as yoo please because it's all a game, right? This is a perfectly rational way of behaving if that is truly what yoo believe.

On the other hand: If yoo believe that yoo do have a soul, that yoo are not limited to physical manifestation, that perhaps there may be a greater spirit or soul of the world (be it a creator, or whatever), then yoo damn well better figure out what that means and live by it.

I find nothing more offensive than people who claim to serve their god of some kind and blatently disobey the essence of their god except perhaps people who claim to be spiritual nihilists and behave like fucking puritans!

Once this first belief has been established (be it true or flase), the rest of a system of spiritual beliefs can begin. Of course there is one simple belief that must be assumed before we can even get to this point but it's so obvious it need not be mentioned.



i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to die so i could watch, and then me die.



Extreme Fanatic

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  posted on 3/1/2003 at 04:08 AM
I am currently referring to myself as a "Non-Denominational Pagan". I do what I think is right and I let it go at that. People either love me or hate me and oh well I keep right on moving along anyways. I tested out some organized cultist/propanga organizations...err commonly called religions...and I've decided they all suck in their own very special ways. So I do my own thing and expect that others will do their own thing and co-exist or kindly get the fuck out of my way. *smiles softly*


"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before." ~Mae West


Extreme Fanatic

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  posted on 4/1/2003 at 12:53 AM
Once yoo have established yor belief or disbelief in a soul, the next step is working-out yor beliefs. This is a life-long persuit durring which time yoo'll go back and modify yor previous beliefs and find that yoo were just plain wrong about certain things. Being wrong is okay as long as yoo admit yoo didn't know better at the time and correct yorself.

In my own personal system of beliefs I refuse to believe anything which either cannot be directly observed or evidence suggests is not so. I always make an exception for cases of intuition but immediatly test such cases. It's also always important to keep an open mind and remember yoo can always be horribly wrong about even the largest cornerstones of yor philosophy.

A good place to start is to decided whether or not yoo believe in some form of god. Thomas Aquinais, for example, has 7 "proofs" of the exsistance of God. I find it interesting that many Xians object to the concept of Evolution when I find that Evolution is a terriffic argument for the exsistance of a greater intelligence.



i wanted to die, and then it progressed into wanting everyone else to
die so i could watch, and then me die.



Extreme Fanatic

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Registered: 31/12/1969
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  posted on 5/1/2003 at 08:15 AM
Hrmm...I think I'll wax serious on this one, I went on a vision quest not too long ago and codified some of my own beliefs lately.
I believe, personally, that existance is sorta' like an onion. Layers upon layers of matera that together form a singular whole. From where we are, and the way we live, we view the entire onion itself. But there and heavens and hells, Loas and Kachina's, Ghosts and echoes...somewhere in the mesh is God and the Devil and in another part...there is absolutely nothing. Ten thousands existances, ten thousand different directions...but when you really get down to it, it's simply an onion. Divinity, I believe...exists to those who believe in it...and it can influence there existance, however to those who do not believe in it, it doesn't really exist. Me, I find comfort in having Coyote looking over my shoulder... so as far as I can figure, there he is. Someone else might see him, or they might see an angel, their conscience...or maybe they have a personal reserve of energy they draw on. I dunno'...I don't fully understand it myself but best I can sum it is...all roads exist, because by concieving of them, they exist...and although it may seem like some would cancel themselves out, they really just slip past one another in relation to their respective layers...
Bleagh...cough cough.
And...damn, I just managed to confuse the crap out of myself...
Anyhow...onions...I believe in onions...bigguns.


In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King



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  posted on 5/1/2003 at 01:18 PM
I think the problem facing religions today was stated well in "Dogma". Faith is a moving, living, organism, sort of like this mass of shaking jelly. A belief structure is a hard, unmoving, weak structure, because it expects all different types of people to believe the exact same thing, an if theres anything I've learned from this site, people rarely agree totally with everything. Putting this belief structure on faith is like building the tower of piza on mud. It leaned. When some people in the group began disagreeing on a part of the belief structure, they split. Now you Catholics, Christians, Baptists, Protestanst, Agnostics, etc. I think it may be because Chistianity And Catholisism where particualy binding religions, forcing people to branch out to be happy. The only way you can keep this from happening is a free religion, and in and of itself, thats not religion. I always say just have faith if you want, but things get tricky when rules and regulations, and stories that can, and sometimes do, turn out to be wrong get thrown in.


“The only thing that can alter the good writer is death.”
“You know that if I were reincarnated, I’d want to come back a buzzard. Nothing hates him. He is never bothered or in danger, and he can eat anything.”



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  posted on 6/8/2004 at 08:31 PM
Amen to I am squid.
I personally am of the 'all just physics' bent, and I'll tell you why I don't just go around raping, murdering and stealing. Few other people beleive the same as me. I would get locked away and that would not constitute an enjoyable time. I know that enjoyment is just chemicals, but it feels to me that i feel, so it would be foolish to act upon my every whim, though there is no other reason to do so. Also, i just dont really feel like raping or murdering. sounds wishy washy, but theres no real attraction in them to me. maybe one day there will be.
ok, my beleifs.
Origins: Terry Pratchett puts it beautifully. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. This is probably not wholly accurate, and i dont know if we will ever find out what happened to cause the big bang, or what went on before it, if anything, but its amusing, concise, and as good an expression of it as i have yet found.
Dvinity: As you may be able to tell, I beleive there is none. Depressing, yes. Difficult, yes. But the random fluctuations of energy waves coupled with predictable interactions leaves me with no other choice of beleif, at least until I am given an alternate satisfactory explanation. You could see this vast 'energy soup' as the spirit of which some speak, but to me the idea of spirit begets a consciousness. I can beleive in ghosts, perhaps some form of electronic residue? I don't know, I have never found sufficient evidence to suggest that they exist, but I do not rule it out. Mind reading? Perhaps, since our 'mind' is mostly whizzing electrons, and they create an electromagnetic field, however small, and are also affected by one, then why not some minds more sensitive to, and vaguely able to interpret, the movement of things in others' minds? Again, I have seen no good enough evidence for it, but I am willing for it to exist. These sorts of things are what I feel would betray the existence of a human spirit or some deity, but if they are explainable in terms of physics then there is no need for that explanation.
Morality: none, for reasons given above and elsewhere.


Eritis sicut Deus scientes bonum et malum.

And the third angel sounded, and a troll army did descend upon the world.

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