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Sita
Coward   Posts: 2 Registered: 10/12/2002 Status: Offline
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 posted on 10/12/2002 at 04:42 PM |
...I stumbled across this website, courtesy of Miss Kathleen C. LaFlamme.
As the scholastic portion of this site may be aware, finals are
approaching. Final assignment for english 114 dictates a paper written on
the expansive topic of "Otherness". I, being of a credible sort, decided
to focus on my high school goth years as subject for the topic that
Goths Not Only Accept, But Actively Desire to be Perceived of as
'Others'.
Well, obviously.
I'm hoping one or more of you "real" goths could back me up on this
argument, forsaking your defiant non-gothness & speaking candidly on the
subject.
-Do you agree or disagree? Why/why not?
-Any essays/books you could recommend to elaborate?
-Does societal ostracization add to your "image"? Give you inspiration,
whether it be artistic, social, fashion, philosophy, etc etc etc?
-Consider: If one day no one--not a blessed soul or media snub, mind
you--gave the slightest care or took the tiniest notice of you/your
look/your lifestyle, & this became the norm, would you persist with your
gothic shtick or move on? (brutal honesty, please.)
-Do you seriously believe goths to be any more profound, interesting, or
more to the point, individual, than "normals", "sheep", etc?
Indignant babygoths need not reply--I need thoughtful, candid feedback.
thanks. ____________________
people,
places,
or ideas?
.........................right.
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Dolorosa
Extreme Fanatic   Posts: 856 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/12/2002 at 08:09 PM |
| *Scratch, scratch* ...yes. ____________________
In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King
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Merry_Widow
Fanatic   Posts: 598 Registered: 24/8/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/12/2002 at 08:28 PM |
| *runs naked and screaming down the aisle* ____________________
Okay, dazzle me.
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Sita
Coward Posts: 2 Registered: 10/12/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/12/2002 at 10:34 PM |
....is this the best you can do? ____________________
people,
places,
or ideas?
.........................right.
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Dolorosa
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 856 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/12/2002 at 11:31 PM |
Dear God, is that a challange?...the absurdity has yet to begin...
But seriously folks, I agree, in certain respects. A lot of us do percieve
ourselves as Others, and seek to drive that aspect home...there is
something romantic in being "other" as well as being an Outsider, eerie,
and such...a lot of us seek this because ALL of us (at least I think so) In
our own ways, are incurable romantics.
If nobody paid any attention of any sort to me one day...complete
disregard for my existance...well, to tell you the truth I'd either cease
to exist, or make myself noticeable real quick. I do live off of attention,
positive or negative (and guess which one's easier to get) but I don't wear
all black, fishnets and make-up all the time...I do that because I enjoy
that style, I don't do it to garner more attention, I could get more by
wearing nothing at all...
As for being more interesting than "sheep" or normal people, yeah...hate
to say it, but in my experiance...the best bang for your buck so to speak
comes from "goths"...at least the fun ones (the depressing, angsty
-oh-woe-is-me types have their value, but they wear ya' out ya' know?).
Gothic types tend to be all sorts of interesting, storehouses of neat
information that isn't exactly mainstream...strong opinions (that are
generally very well thought out, and if you push, well explained), and when
you get right down to it...we/they/whatever are generally extremely
affectionate people...
I like Goths, if anything...they/we are just so much more fun to watch... ____________________
In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King
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Kira
Member   Posts: 149 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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 posted on 11/12/2002 at 12:18 AM |
So what you are trying to say is that "goths" enjoy sticking out like a
sore thumb, and indeed go out of their way for the attention?
I don't really think that is a fair statement. Yes, I am sure there are
lots of people who go through a certain phase in their life where their
whole identity centers around freaking people out. But for most goths I
know (myself included, but I don't know if you would even consider me goth
if I bumped into you on the street) dressing and looking the way they do is
a method of self expression, not a cry for attention. Take my sister for
example, who sports a 4-6" colored mohawk. She loves having a mohawk, she
loves the way it makes her look. But she has admitted before that
sometimes she gets sick of all the negative attention it brings her.
No, societal ostracization does not add to my image. In fact, often I try
to over-compensate with people when I am dressed especially weird. If they
are rude to me, I am very polite. I am trying to break sterotypes, not
re-enforce them for my own kicks. I think it's killer when a 60 year old
lady tells me she likes my big platform boots.
Honestly, I would jump up and down with joy if no one noticed or cared how
I dressed. But again, this is not a fair question to ask to just goths.
If people really stopped noticing appearances, then would people go on
wearing name brand clothing? Or just move on? What about makeup or heels
or suits?
As far as goths being more interesting, I challenge you to define what a
"real" goth is. There are many varied personalities among goths as with
any other group of people, which ultimately makes papers like the one
you're trying to write not worth the while. I've met some really goth
assholes and some totally awesome people. But on the whole, I find that
people I meet who could be described as goth tend to mesh with my
personality better, and I have more in common with them. Everyone is an
individual, regardless of whether they are goth or not. Intellect varies
among goths as well, so I would have to say again that it depends on who
you're talking about.
As far as sources go, you're on your own. That's why they call it
research. ____________________
Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.
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Domkitten
Fanatic  Posts: 470 Registered: 23/9/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 11/12/2002 at 01:12 AM |
| i don't think goth's want to be percieved as others....i mean, no one
usually notices me...what with the wearing all black, the white makeup,
blood running down my face, and the coffin i sleep in, i usually just blend
right on into the background.... ____________________
It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus
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AloneSoul
Fanatic  Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 12/12/2002 at 11:43 AM |
| I'm going to reply to this one too when I get my internet at home fixed,
I'm in class now so I don't have the time to. ____________________
 but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
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Psychopixi
Fanatic  Posts: 376 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 12/12/2002 at 12:26 PM |
"-Do you agree or disagree? Why/why not?"
I agree to an extent. I guess it is good sometimes to be not only noticed
as 'other' but have this fact emphasised. Brutal honesty time: It's nice
*not* to look like everyone else, and it's not to make people say "She's a
goth!" and point and stare, but because most of the people I know who are
townie are complete arseholes, and the trendies are airheaded and seem to
share a brain, because they all dress / act / speak the same. I like the
fact that I look different to them, because people being people then assume
I'm different from them and treat me differently. Even if sometimes they do
get violent!
"-Any essays/books you could recommend to elaborate?"
http://www.gothics.org/subculture/
"-Does societal ostracization add to your "image"? Give you inspiration,
whether it be artistic, social, fashion, philosophy, etc etc etc?"
Nah, personally I find it just leads to unwanted hassle. I'm not
cultivating an image, I'm being me. So I get ostracized because of the way
I look... I don't dress this way to perpetuate the ostracization. It
doesn't lend itself to inspiration either, not for me at least.
"-Consider: If one day no one--not a blessed soul or media snub, mind
you--gave the slightest care or took the tiniest notice of you/your
look/your lifestyle, & this became the norm, would you persist with your
gothic shtick or move on? (brutal honesty, please.)"
I look for the flying pigs and then smile. Seriously, I doubt I'd change
any of my clothing. 'Cept maybe if no-one at all cared what I was wearing,
I think I'd wear more outrageous things, that show a bit more flesh and are
yet socially unacceptable at the moment, especially in school. Again, I
like the way that I look because I think the clothing and style suits me
(c'mon, who doesn't look good in black?) not t get attention. I think I's
be happier if it was the norm - I would get less hassle, be able to dress
in any way I wanted and still be able to have a decent conversation with my
friends.
"-Do you seriously believe goths to be any more profound, interesting, or
more to the point, individual, than "normals", "sheep", etc?"
If we're doing the brutal honesty thing again, yes I do. I think only
certain types of people are attracted to the gothic subculture (and I mean
the subculture, not including the Mansonites) and these people are
generally more intelligent and thoughtful than average which is why they
were attracted to the gothic scene in the first place. I've found
conversations with goths to be a lot more interesting than with other
people. ____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.
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Meranda_Jade
Fanatic  Posts: 511 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 12/12/2002 at 12:58 PM |
I think most of us are ostracized from society no matter what we wear. I
know when I was in middle school, I was picked on to the point of tears for
being different... and I was desperately trying to look like everyone else
and be accepted. When I went to high school, I started wearing odd clothes
and loaded on the makeup, reasoning that if I'm different anyway, I may as
well admit to it, and show it off... and the makeup and clothes were like
armor saying "I don't care what you think of me". Miraculously, I wasn't
picked on anymore, and I had a lot more friends... my closest ones were
other misfits who could recognize me as one of them.
Some of us thrive on attention, some don't want to be noticed at all, and
others don't give a damn one way or the other. A lot of us dress the way
we do because that's the way we feel most comfortable... and if you look at
the picture gallery, you'll see that we don't all dress alike, or with
intention to shock. I don't think any one of us would change our personal
style if we weren't getting attention... we'd still feel comfortable in
whatever we wear.
As far as being more interesting... this particular group of people is the
most interesting bunch I've ever had the pleasure to know. Interesting
people tend to find other interesting people and flock together... and we
are all still individuals. Not one person here is a carbon copy of
another... and I don't think any of us are "normal". That's a good thing,
because all the great people who had an impact in history were decidedly
"not normal".
As far as inspiration goes, I don't think any of us woke up one day and
said, "Gee, I think I'd like to be a GOTH because it's really cool to SCARE
people. " Every person here has intelligence, talent, the ability to
appreciate beauty, and just in general is capable of looking at the world
with a slightly skewed perspective. Every person's perception of the world
helps to turn them into who they are, and some people's perception led them
to like clothes and art and literature and all kinds of other things that
are somewhat different from what happens to be popular with certain other
groups.
I disagree that goths actively desire to be seen as "Others". Goths
actively desire to be seen as "Themselves". Goths do tend to be more
comfortable with who and what they are, and in general have a deeper
understanding of who and what they are than most people, and so many of
them don't care a button about other people's opinions.
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AloneSoul
Fanatic Posts: 522 Registered: 6/7/2002 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/12/2002 at 02:49 PM |
To begin, we’re not “goths” or “goffs”, we’re “black clad freaks.” heh,
inside joke...from which I may be the only one laughing at....*sits down*
1. Yes and no. Some people go “gothic” for attention just as some people
are “class clowns” or “fraudulently attention grabbing suicidal dolts” and
such. In every basic sub-culture you have a person who has joined only for
the fashion, or for attention, or for god knows what else.
In my personal case (opinion), I disagree. Ever since I was young I always
wanted to dress in black, I loved being alone in a dark room, it’s
comforting to me. See, the problem with me changing to the whole gothic
“shtick” is money. My family was poor for a while and I worked to put
“regular” cloths on my back or to buy a $70 SNES game. - I’ve been wearing
all black for a while now and to honest, I feel more comfortable in this
way than I EVER was wearing “normal” cloths. I don’t care about people’s
stairs, I don’t give two shits about some random Joe’s impression on me, I
don’t even pay attention. I got used to it when kids back in Elementary
school would throw random jests at me about my extreme paleness.
2. http://stu.wccnet.org/~klaflamm/GDT150/shadows/index.htm/
3. Does the outcast factor add to my “image?” No, why? Again, I simply
don’t care what other people think of me. (AGAIN) I could give two shits
less about some Joe’s impression on me. I have no inspirations, this is
something I wanted to do, not because I feel in love with some vampire
movie.
4. I considered it and frankly, it wouldn’t make a difference to me. Again
I say that I am not “gothic” for attention nor do I seek out attention. I’m
not a class clown, I always have been shy and repellent of people and I
tend to do things myself. Infact, I like your “consider” scenario for if
everyone in the world would stop judging eachother by our outer appearances
then we’d be one step closer to a society without racism.
5. I’m in the middle with this one again. You can find amazingly poetic and
artistic people who dress like any other “normal” person would. However, I
have noticed that “gothic” people are more willing to express their
creative sides, wether it be in the attire, writings, home stylings and
what not. “Gothic” people to me tend to carry some extremely interesting
and well thought conversations/ideas, many which you don’t find held by a
“normal” person - however, that’s not to say that “normal” people can’t and
don’t do the same. I have many intelligent friends who will surprise you
with their ideals and beliefs.
Here’s a note to you, don’t shun the “babygoths” for that’s the same as
judging a book by it’s cover...many of them are much smarter than one would
expect.
____________________
SRC="http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/ff6/images/characters/kefka.gi
f">
size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living
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Khamrel
Coward  Posts: 2 Registered: 21/6/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/8/2004 at 07:55 PM |
I agree with portions of both what psychopixi and alonesoul have said....
but to be honest the easiest way i can explain why i love being a goth is
the clean-cut seperation from the rest of society, or more just the parts i
dislike, ofcourse i like the fashion, when i wear my black clothes/makeup
and silver jewellery, i feel in-place and in harmony with my vision of the
world around me, if im around and not wearing all this i feel disconnected
and wrong..... and no i havent always been this way, but i wouldnt have it
any other way....  ____________________
Countess swathed in ebony And snow-white balletic grace Rouge-filmed lips
procure the wish For lust and her disgrace.....
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bettie_x
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1570 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/8/2004 at 11:07 PM |
how the fuck did I miss this? I'm so glad I'm drunk right now......but for
old time's sake:
my black is blacker than your black. It always has been, it always will
be. My first real date ever was the bauhaus reunion tour in '98, I lost my
virginity to Tones on Tail, and my husband is covered in bat tattoos.
nyah. ____________________
Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic  Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 3/8/2004 at 12:28 AM |
| isn't amazing that an induhviduals caliber can be assessed, generally
within five posts? ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Rogue
Member  Posts: 199 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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 posted on 3/8/2004 at 07:51 AM |
Eh, most goth types are still conformist, they just feel rejected by
mainstream conformity and so seek a more accepting or elite type of
conformity. You know, "I'm an individual, just like all my friends!" Some
rare few are actually doing their own thing without regard for this, but
most people seek acceptance since that seems to be hardwired into our
primate skulls. It's why so many of our relationships at work, etc, etc,
can be boiled down to simple BDSM terms and why BDSM is as popular as it
is, it gets to the essence of the primate heirarchy that we are built to
crave. I guess I got off the subject a bit there, but in short I would say
that most goth types desire to be labelled as "Others" so they can fit in
with a certain crowd, not because they genuinely want to be an outsider or
even themselves. Fitting in is safer than the risk of being unfavourably
compared with another person or group and it satisfies our monkey urges
like BDSM play or organised religion or military service does.
A corollary to this...everybody reading this is thinking "That's me, I'm
one of those rare few that are really doing their own thing!" ____________________
Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time.
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feralucce
Extreme Fanatic Posts: 1810 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Offline
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posted on 3/8/2004 at 08:36 AM |
| Rogue: and then there are the rare few that ar thinkin...*wink* piss off...
societal roles suck ____________________
The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.
Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist
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Devin
Administrator  Posts: 317 Registered: 31/12/1969 Status: Online
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posted on 3/8/2004 at 09:16 AM |
-Do you agree or disagree? Why/why not?
Neither, I could care less.
-Any essays/books you could recommend to elaborate?
That Kathleen LaFlamme essay is probably as good as anything else you're
going to find, although there's some good links in the goth part of the
links section on this site
-Does societal ostracization add to your "image"? Give you inspiration,
whether it be artistic, social, fashion, philosophy, etc etc etc?
I was ostracized LONG before I owned any black clothing. I don't think it
makes much difference really.
-Consider: If one day no one--not a blessed soul or media snub, mind
you--gave the slightest care or took the tiniest notice of you/your
look/your lifestyle, & this became the norm, would you persist with your
gothic shtick or move on? (brutal honesty, please.)
I "persisted with my gothic shtick" years before the media noticed, why
would I stop persisting if they went away. I count about 12 years between
the time I figured out that I looked better in black and the time I first
heard someone refer to me as a "gothboy". In Hawaii in the 80's and 90's
there was absolutely no awareness of the gothic culture. Nobody talked
about it, so there was no way for me to learn about it. I was not goth, I
was just eccentric. I never changed anything, I became "goth" because the
media noticed. If the media quits noticing, I may no longer be a goth, but
I will still dress the same, think the same, talk the same, and live the
same.
-Do you seriously believe goths to be any more profound, interesting, or
more to the point, individual, than "normals", "sheep", etc?
No. Goths are boring as fuck. Little whiney twits who have delusions of
being some immortal vampyre from the 1700's who's trapped in the body of a
14.8 year old. They drive me fucking nuts and I want to step on their
little perforated faces. I adore eccentric people though - and being
profound, interesting and individual is pretty close to the definition of
eccentric. But then, if you look at the top of every page on this site,
you'll see the reminder to keep people from forgetting:
Shmeng is not a gothic site ____________________
So Sayeth Me
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