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Author: Subject: One day, on a quest for gothic bibliography sources.....


Posts: 2
Registered: 10/12/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/12/2002 at 04:42 PM

...I stumbled across this website, courtesy of Miss Kathleen C. LaFlamme.

As the scholastic portion of this site may be aware, finals are approaching. Final assignment for english 114 dictates a paper written on the expansive topic of "Otherness". I, being of a credible sort, decided to focus on my high school goth years as subject for the topic that Goths Not Only Accept, But Actively Desire to be Perceived of as 'Others'.

Well, obviously.

I'm hoping one or more of you "real" goths could back me up on this argument, forsaking your defiant non-gothness & speaking candidly on the subject.

-Do you agree or disagree? Why/why not?
-Any essays/books you could recommend to elaborate?
-Does societal ostracization add to your "image"? Give you inspiration, whether it be artistic, social, fashion, philosophy, etc etc etc?
-Consider: If one day no one--not a blessed soul or media snub, mind you--gave the slightest care or took the tiniest notice of you/your look/your lifestyle, & this became the norm, would you persist with your gothic shtick or move on? (brutal honesty, please.)
-Do you seriously believe goths to be any more profound, interesting, or more to the point, individual, than "normals", "sheep", etc?

Indignant babygoths need not reply--I need thoughtful, candid feedback.




or ideas?



Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 856
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/12/2002 at 08:09 PM
*Scratch, scratch* ...yes.


In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King



Posts: 598
Registered: 24/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/12/2002 at 08:28 PM
*runs naked and screaming down the aisle*


Okay, dazzle me.



Posts: 2
Registered: 10/12/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/12/2002 at 10:34 PM

....is this the best you can do?





or ideas?



Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 856
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/12/2002 at 11:31 PM
Dear God, is that a challange?...the absurdity has yet to begin...

But seriously folks, I agree, in certain respects. A lot of us do percieve ourselves as Others, and seek to drive that aspect home...there is something romantic in being "other" as well as being an Outsider, eerie, and such...a lot of us seek this because ALL of us (at least I think so) In our own ways, are incurable romantics.
If nobody paid any attention of any sort to me one day...complete disregard for my existance...well, to tell you the truth I'd either cease to exist, or make myself noticeable real quick. I do live off of attention, positive or negative (and guess which one's easier to get) but I don't wear all black, fishnets and make-up all the time...I do that because I enjoy that style, I don't do it to garner more attention, I could get more by wearing nothing at all...
As for being more interesting than "sheep" or normal people, yeah...hate to say it, but in my experiance...the best bang for your buck so to speak comes from "goths"...at least the fun ones (the depressing, angsty -oh-woe-is-me types have their value, but they wear ya' out ya' know?). Gothic types tend to be all sorts of interesting, storehouses of neat information that isn't exactly mainstream...strong opinions (that are generally very well thought out, and if you push, well explained), and when you get right down to it...we/they/whatever are generally extremely affectionate people...
I like Goths, if anything...they/we are just so much more fun to watch...


In the valley of the Goats, the Goat Fucker is King



Posts: 149
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/12/2002 at 12:18 AM
So what you are trying to say is that "goths" enjoy sticking out like a sore thumb, and indeed go out of their way for the attention?

I don't really think that is a fair statement. Yes, I am sure there are lots of people who go through a certain phase in their life where their whole identity centers around freaking people out. But for most goths I know (myself included, but I don't know if you would even consider me goth if I bumped into you on the street) dressing and looking the way they do is a method of self expression, not a cry for attention. Take my sister for example, who sports a 4-6" colored mohawk. She loves having a mohawk, she loves the way it makes her look. But she has admitted before that sometimes she gets sick of all the negative attention it brings her.

No, societal ostracization does not add to my image. In fact, often I try to over-compensate with people when I am dressed especially weird. If they are rude to me, I am very polite. I am trying to break sterotypes, not re-enforce them for my own kicks. I think it's killer when a 60 year old lady tells me she likes my big platform boots.

Honestly, I would jump up and down with joy if no one noticed or cared how I dressed. But again, this is not a fair question to ask to just goths. If people really stopped noticing appearances, then would people go on wearing name brand clothing? Or just move on? What about makeup or heels or suits?

As far as goths being more interesting, I challenge you to define what a "real" goth is. There are many varied personalities among goths as with any other group of people, which ultimately makes papers like the one you're trying to write not worth the while. I've met some really goth assholes and some totally awesome people. But on the whole, I find that people I meet who could be described as goth tend to mesh with my personality better, and I have more in common with them. Everyone is an individual, regardless of whether they are goth or not. Intellect varies among goths as well, so I would have to say again that it depends on who you're talking about.

As far as sources go, you're on your own. That's why they call it research.


Wind me up and make me crawl to you, tie me up until I call to you.



Posts: 470
Registered: 23/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/12/2002 at 01:12 AM
i don't think goth's want to be percieved as others....i mean, no one usually notices me...what with the wearing all black, the white makeup, blood running down my face, and the coffin i sleep in, i usually just blend right on into the background....


It's like kegel exercises for your throat.~Monolycus



Posts: 522
Registered: 6/7/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/12/2002 at 11:43 AM
I'm going to reply to this one too when I get my internet at home fixed, I'm in class now so I don't have the time to.


but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living


Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/12/2002 at 12:26 PM
"-Do you agree or disagree? Why/why not?"
I agree to an extent. I guess it is good sometimes to be not only noticed as 'other' but have this fact emphasised. Brutal honesty time: It's nice *not* to look like everyone else, and it's not to make people say "She's a goth!" and point and stare, but because most of the people I know who are townie are complete arseholes, and the trendies are airheaded and seem to share a brain, because they all dress / act / speak the same. I like the fact that I look different to them, because people being people then assume I'm different from them and treat me differently. Even if sometimes they do get violent!

"-Any essays/books you could recommend to elaborate?"

"-Does societal ostracization add to your "image"? Give you inspiration, whether it be artistic, social, fashion, philosophy, etc etc etc?"
Nah, personally I find it just leads to unwanted hassle. I'm not cultivating an image, I'm being me. So I get ostracized because of the way I look... I don't dress this way to perpetuate the ostracization. It doesn't lend itself to inspiration either, not for me at least.

"-Consider: If one day no one--not a blessed soul or media snub, mind you--gave the slightest care or took the tiniest notice of you/your look/your lifestyle, & this became the norm, would you persist with your gothic shtick or move on? (brutal honesty, please.)"
I look for the flying pigs and then smile. Seriously, I doubt I'd change any of my clothing. 'Cept maybe if no-one at all cared what I was wearing, I think I'd wear more outrageous things, that show a bit more flesh and are yet socially unacceptable at the moment, especially in school. Again, I like the way that I look because I think the clothing and style suits me (c'mon, who doesn't look good in black?) not t get attention. I think I's be happier if it was the norm - I would get less hassle, be able to dress in any way I wanted and still be able to have a decent conversation with my friends.

"-Do you seriously believe goths to be any more profound, interesting, or more to the point, individual, than "normals", "sheep", etc?"
If we're doing the brutal honesty thing again, yes I do. I think only certain types of people are attracted to the gothic subculture (and I mean the subculture, not including the Mansonites) and these people are generally more intelligent and thoughtful than average which is why they were attracted to the gothic scene in the first place. I've found conversations with goths to be a lot more interesting than with other people.


Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.



Posts: 511
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/12/2002 at 12:58 PM
I think most of us are ostracized from society no matter what we wear. I know when I was in middle school, I was picked on to the point of tears for being different... and I was desperately trying to look like everyone else and be accepted. When I went to high school, I started wearing odd clothes and loaded on the makeup, reasoning that if I'm different anyway, I may as well admit to it, and show it off... and the makeup and clothes were like armor saying "I don't care what you think of me". Miraculously, I wasn't picked on anymore, and I had a lot more friends... my closest ones were other misfits who could recognize me as one of them.

Some of us thrive on attention, some don't want to be noticed at all, and others don't give a damn one way or the other. A lot of us dress the way we do because that's the way we feel most comfortable... and if you look at the picture gallery, you'll see that we don't all dress alike, or with intention to shock. I don't think any one of us would change our personal style if we weren't getting attention... we'd still feel comfortable in whatever we wear.

As far as being more interesting... this particular group of people is the most interesting bunch I've ever had the pleasure to know. Interesting people tend to find other interesting people and flock together... and we are all still individuals. Not one person here is a carbon copy of another... and I don't think any of us are "normal". That's a good thing, because all the great people who had an impact in history were decidedly "not normal".

As far as inspiration goes, I don't think any of us woke up one day and said, "Gee, I think I'd like to be a GOTH because it's really cool to SCARE people. " Every person here has intelligence, talent, the ability to appreciate beauty, and just in general is capable of looking at the world with a slightly skewed perspective. Every person's perception of the world helps to turn them into who they are, and some people's perception led them to like clothes and art and literature and all kinds of other things that are somewhat different from what happens to be popular with certain other groups.

I disagree that goths actively desire to be seen as "Others". Goths actively desire to be seen as "Themselves". Goths do tend to be more comfortable with who and what they are, and in general have a deeper understanding of who and what they are than most people, and so many of them don't care a button about other people's opinions.



Posts: 522
Registered: 6/7/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 18/12/2002 at 02:49 PM
To begin, we’re not “goths” or “goffs”, we’re “black clad freaks.” heh, inside joke...from which I may be the only one laughing at....*sits down*

1. Yes and no. Some people go “gothic” for attention just as some people are “class clowns” or “fraudulently attention grabbing suicidal dolts” and such. In every basic sub-culture you have a person who has joined only for the fashion, or for attention, or for god knows what else.

In my personal case (opinion), I disagree. Ever since I was young I always wanted to dress in black, I loved being alone in a dark room, it’s comforting to me. See, the problem with me changing to the whole gothic “shtick” is money. My family was poor for a while and I worked to put “regular” cloths on my back or to buy a $70 SNES game. - I’ve been wearing all black for a while now and to honest, I feel more comfortable in this way than I EVER was wearing “normal” cloths. I don’t care about people’s stairs, I don’t give two shits about some random Joe’s impression on me, I don’t even pay attention. I got used to it when kids back in Elementary school would throw random jests at me about my extreme paleness.

2. http://stu.wccnet.org/~klaflamm/GDT150/shadows/index.htm/

3. Does the outcast factor add to my “image?” No, why? Again, I simply don’t care what other people think of me. (AGAIN) I could give two shits less about some Joe’s impression on me. I have no inspirations, this is something I wanted to do, not because I feel in love with some vampire movie.

4. I considered it and frankly, it wouldn’t make a difference to me. Again I say that I am not “gothic” for attention nor do I seek out attention. I’m not a class clown, I always have been shy and repellent of people and I tend to do things myself. Infact, I like your “consider” scenario for if everyone in the world would stop judging eachother by our outer appearances then we’d be one step closer to a society without racism.

5. I’m in the middle with this one again. You can find amazingly poetic and artistic people who dress like any other “normal” person would. However, I have noticed that “gothic” people are more willing to express their creative sides, wether it be in the attire, writings, home stylings and what not. “Gothic” people to me tend to carry some extremely interesting and well thought conversations/ideas, many which you don’t find held by a “normal” person - however, that’s not to say that “normal” people can’t and don’t do the same. I have many intelligent friends who will surprise you with their ideals and beliefs.

Here’s a note to you, don’t shun the “babygoths” for that’s the same as judging a book by it’s cover...many of them are much smarter than one would expect.


size=1> but at least you know, just how much pain there is in living



Posts: 2
Registered: 21/6/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/8/2004 at 07:55 PM
I agree with portions of both what psychopixi and alonesoul have said.... but to be honest the easiest way i can explain why i love being a goth is the clean-cut seperation from the rest of society, or more just the parts i dislike, ofcourse i like the fashion, when i wear my black clothes/makeup and silver jewellery, i feel in-place and in harmony with my vision of the world around me, if im around and not wearing all this i feel disconnected and wrong..... and no i havent always been this way, but i wouldnt have it any other way....


Countess swathed in ebony And snow-white balletic grace Rouge-filmed lips procure the wish For lust and her disgrace.....


Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 1570
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/8/2004 at 11:07 PM
how the fuck did I miss this? I'm so glad I'm drunk right now......but for old time's sake:

my black is blacker than your black. It always has been, it always will be. My first real date ever was the bauhaus reunion tour in '98, I lost my virginity to Tones on Tail, and my husband is covered in bat tattoos. nyah.


Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas.


Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/8/2004 at 12:28 AM
isn't amazing that an induhviduals caliber can be assessed, generally within five posts?


The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist



Posts: 199
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/8/2004 at 07:51 AM
Eh, most goth types are still conformist, they just feel rejected by mainstream conformity and so seek a more accepting or elite type of conformity. You know, "I'm an individual, just like all my friends!" Some rare few are actually doing their own thing without regard for this, but most people seek acceptance since that seems to be hardwired into our primate skulls. It's why so many of our relationships at work, etc, etc, can be boiled down to simple BDSM terms and why BDSM is as popular as it is, it gets to the essence of the primate heirarchy that we are built to crave. I guess I got off the subject a bit there, but in short I would say that most goth types desire to be labelled as "Others" so they can fit in with a certain crowd, not because they genuinely want to be an outsider or even themselves. Fitting in is safer than the risk of being unfavourably compared with another person or group and it satisfies our monkey urges like BDSM play or organised religion or military service does.

A corollary to this...everybody reading this is thinking "That's me, I'm one of those rare few that are really doing their own thing!"


Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time.


Extreme Fanatic

Posts: 1810
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/8/2004 at 08:36 AM
Rogue: and then there are the rare few that ar thinkin...*wink* piss off... societal roles suck


The earth turns on a tilted axis - just doing the best it can.

Hohenheim of Light~Full Metal Alchemist



Posts: 317
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Online

  posted on 3/8/2004 at 09:16 AM
-Do you agree or disagree? Why/why not?

Neither, I could care less.

-Any essays/books you could recommend to elaborate?

That Kathleen LaFlamme essay is probably as good as anything else you're going to find, although there's some good links in the goth part of the links section on this site

-Does societal ostracization add to your "image"? Give you inspiration, whether it be artistic, social, fashion, philosophy, etc etc etc?

I was ostracized LONG before I owned any black clothing. I don't think it makes much difference really.

-Consider: If one day no one--not a blessed soul or media snub, mind you--gave the slightest care or took the tiniest notice of you/your look/your lifestyle, & this became the norm, would you persist with your gothic shtick or move on? (brutal honesty, please.)

I "persisted with my gothic shtick" years before the media noticed, why would I stop persisting if they went away. I count about 12 years between the time I figured out that I looked better in black and the time I first heard someone refer to me as a "gothboy". In Hawaii in the 80's and 90's there was absolutely no awareness of the gothic culture. Nobody talked about it, so there was no way for me to learn about it. I was not goth, I was just eccentric. I never changed anything, I became "goth" because the media noticed. If the media quits noticing, I may no longer be a goth, but I will still dress the same, think the same, talk the same, and live the same.

-Do you seriously believe goths to be any more profound, interesting, or more to the point, individual, than "normals", "sheep", etc?

No. Goths are boring as fuck. Little whiney twits who have delusions of being some immortal vampyre from the 1700's who's trapped in the body of a 14.8 year old. They drive me fucking nuts and I want to step on their little perforated faces. I adore eccentric people though - and being profound, interesting and individual is pretty close to the definition of eccentric. But then, if you look at the top of every page on this site, you'll see the reminder to keep people from forgetting:

Shmeng is not a gothic site


So Sayeth Me


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