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Author: Subject: Book Club: A Clockwork Orange

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  posted on 16/9/2002 at 01:28 AM
Looks like there is no danger of the party starting without me. The book is divided into three sections of about seven chapters each, so I thought that worked well enough to begin rambling. It is probably a bit predictable, but I will begin with part I.

My copy of the book came with a glossary (of sorts) in the back, which I used extensively for the first chapter and then stopped using it altogether as the flow of the writing was really interrupted by constantly flipping to the end and starting sentences over and over. At first I thought that the slang-that-never-was was going to be a huge distraction... but seven chapters into it and I can see that it is done very horrorshow. It gives the book a very "trendy" feel, but not one that would feel dated a week from now.

Burgess does a very good job of creating a thoroughly inexcusable and simultaneously sympathetic hero in Alex, which is no mean feat. While Alex performs detestable actions and does not seem to have any goals or ambitions (or any thoughts far beyond himself and his own appetites), he seems to have developed highly refined ideas about what is and is not done in the world (For instance, punching Dim in the face for being rude to the singing girl in Chapter 3, pounding an old drunkard in Chapter 2 for making intestinal noises, apologising for vomiting after having been beaten by the police in Chapter 7). He seems to have almost a foppish concern for appearances and the degree of offense he takes to body odours seems a bit misplaced for a young hoodlum (His disgust with the police in Chapter 6 seems almost entirely centered on the way they smell, and it is Billyboy´s smell and overweight appearance that sets him off in Chapter 2). Where does Alex come by these "refined" sensibilities? He seems to be conscious enough of his speech and mannerisms to be able to effect a "gentlemanly" composure to disarm his victims (at the writer´s house and again at the old cat lady´s house), so he must be perfectly conscious of his posturing. It is just not made clear (so far) where that posturing comes from.

Actually, that question might be close to the heart of what the book seems to be about. There is no "where it comes from". Chapter 4, in which Alex is visited by Mr. P.R. Deltoid, asks this question fairly directly. "This biting of their toe-nails over what is the cause of badness is what turns me into a fine laughing malchick. They don´t go into what is the cause of goodness..." A lot of proposed solutions are raised to be knocked down again, including the laughable "Devil-made-me-do-it defense (which Burgess correctly points out is a convenient excuse for any action in the world. It doesn´t really ANSWER anything, it simply absolves anyone of any personal responsibility).

Even someone unfamiliar with the book can see where the author´s sympathies lay. In Chapter 2, The writer who is beaten and is forced to watch the rape of his wife is conveniently writing an essay on this very issue. The book, also titled "A Clockwork Orange", rails against "...impos(ing)... laws and conditions appropriate to a mechanical creation". Obviously, Burgess is suggesting that it is better to be bad and to have free-will than to be made into an automaton with no will, but this begs a question. Does Alex have free-will to begin with? Alex states in Chapter 4 that he does what he does because he likes to, but is it possible that he is conditioned to like to do bad things?

This might very well be the case, as we see in Chapters 6 and 7 that the "good guys" (police) also revel in violence. Actually, Burgess has not presented the reader in part I with a single individual that we might be able to call "good" without being forced to put a question mark in front of it. Alex does not seem to be "evil", in so much as he enjoys inflicting pain and suffering on thinking, feeling beings... he simply objectifies everyone in the world and only views them as being there for his own amusement. That might be why Alex is so uncomfortable when Mr. Deltoid dehumanises him in the same way that he has done to everyone else in the past in Chapter 6. "He looked at (Alex) with cold glazzies like (Alex) had become a thing and was no more a bleeding very tired battered chelloveck". That realisation might be Alex´s first steps into the realisation that he is not the center of the world. We shall see. I am, I was, I will be

~Monolycus.

 

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  posted on 17/9/2002 at 08:42 AM
Alrighty...let´s say that everyone who wants to discuss A Clockwork Orange should be through the first 3 chapters by the end of this week.

If you´ve already read it, that will be easy. But if anyone out there is reading it for the first time, it takes a little while to get used to the lingo.

I was thinking we would do Siddharte next, but I think there´s no reason we couldn´t do them together...

 

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  posted on 17/9/2002 at 01:43 PM
I apologise, Kira. I thought that "first three chapters" suggestion was more a guideline than a rule... I should have checked with everybody. I decided to post about the first part (seven chapters) because
a.) I thought the chapters were fairly short
b.) I thought it might be easier to discuss broken into the segments that the author used, and
c.) I was beginning to suspect that nobody else was actually going to post anything and I was trying to light a fire under them.

I understand completely that some people read more quickly than others and that this particular selection uses some different language choices. I was not trying to one-up anyone, I was just trying to get the ball rolling. Hope I haven´t offended.

~M.

 

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  posted on 19/9/2002 at 11:47 AM
I don´t mean to taint your enjoyment of the book, as I feel that it can be especially pertinent to the attentions of a minority group such as this site is aimed at, but I feel that by reading the book as a non-English reader you will loose some of the more subtle political undertones that can be percieved by somebody growing up in the shadow past English political events.

 

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  posted on 19/9/2002 at 01:02 PM
Maybe we should read a novel pertinent especially to the atrocities of our English brothers across the pond, such as "Kim," or maybe "Lord of the Rings." To get a perspective. Wops? Wargs? You tell me the difference!

 

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  posted on 19/9/2002 at 02:53 PM
Abbadon: That is what makes a discussion group so enlightening for everyone. Don´t tell us that we won´t get it. Try to explain it (unless you are just being cryptic without really having a point... I don´t suspect that is the case). I can hear in the corner of my mind a recorded speech from some stuffy British politician... "We conservatives have always maintained the need for an experiment with a tougher regime for depriving young football hooligans of their (can´t recall the words)... I am pleased to announce today that the experiment planned in our election manifesto will begin in Surrey. These will be no holiday camps! We will introduce on a regular basis drills, parades and inspections..." Is this to what you are referring?

Think of this as a seminar. If you have something enlightening to share, please do. I am, I was, I will be

~Monolycus.

 

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  posted on 30/9/2002 at 03:30 PM
If you listen closely you can just make out the sound of me throwing in the towel on this whole idea. I´ve done all I can. I´m out.

~M.

 

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  posted on 1/10/2002 at 01:28 AM
Aw, c´mon, I´ve just managed to buy the book in English!!!

 

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  posted on 1/10/2002 at 01:16 PM
Okay, KatB... if you are seriously interested in discussing/debating/dissecting and actually staying remotely on topic, then show us your tits. I´ll be waiting for you to post. If you want to respond to my questions/observations or pose some of your own, I will be as happy as the proverbial scatological porcine. Maybe you can shame some of the others into putting their library cards where their mouths are.

~M.

 

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  posted on 8/12/2004 at 02:08 PM
I've already read it Good book.
 

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  posted on 8/12/2004 at 03:40 PM
A two year wait before a brief announcement that someone has read it wasn't exactly the calibre of discussion I was hoping for here. I've read it, too. Was there anything about it that you actually wanted to discuss, appraise or critique apart from mentioning that it was "good"?

~M.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 02:42 PM
quote:
A two year wait before a brief announcement that someone has read it wasn't exactly the calibre of discussion I was hoping for here. I've read it, too. Was there anything about it that you actually wanted to discuss, appraise or critique apart from mentioning that it was "good"?

~M.


Yeah, I wasn't aware of the date until after I posted it. It's sad how long it takes for a new topic to be put up on this forum. You would think people would be more active on the site. I read the book two years ago.

 

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  posted on 10/12/2004 at 03:56 PM
The main theme behind A Clockwork Orange is freedom of choice. Alex does not really have or exercise any freedom of choice until the very end of the book when he feels he has matured into someone capable of making meaningful choices having shaken off the shackles of violence and the conditioning imposed upon him by society- discuss. what confused me slightly here was whether or not alex did have freedom of choice at the start of the book? At the end he talks about how he was too immature at that point to make any real choices. And how society had 'wound him up' like the object of the title. Do people agree with this? Or did he perhaps have more choice in the matter than he would like to admit? Is he just trying to excuse his violence by saying that society had left him no real alternatives?

Also, on the translation thing, how does the title translate? Does it retain it's english connotations of an organic being turned automaton?

And why do you think Burgess used a russian basis for the slang in the book? Perhaps having a dig at the dictatorial regimes of Stalin etc and their attempts at dehumanising?

[Edited on 10/12/2004 by nostalgiaforinfinity]

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 01:22 AM
The story that I have heard regarding the use of the Russian slang is that Anthony Burgess (né Jon Anthony Burgess Wilson, AKA Joseph Kell) was beaten by three drunken Russian sailors one evening when he allowed them into his home... and this incident was the entire basis for the novel. Might be apocryphal, but makes entirely more sense than his having a dig at Stalinism... esepcially since Khruschev was premiere of the Soviet Union at the time the novel was published (1962).

What is it in the text that makes you feel that Alex is incapable of making meaningful choices before being subjected to the Ludovico Treatment, and why do you feel he was capable of meaningful decisions after he was "reconditioned"...? Wasn't he always, at some point or another, a Clockwork Orange?

~M.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 01:23 PM
The story about him being beaten up comes from a period in the late 50s early 60s when Burgess was visiting the USSR. The sailors were causing trouble outisde his hotel, but when he went to leave they let him pass. It turned out they were waiting for someone else and not planning on attacking the corrupt capitalist. Another inexplicably popula (and slightly more ridiculous)r myth is that he had some involvement in some top secret CIA dehumanisation programme.

Although Stalin's purges and the Red Terror were past by the time Burgess visited Leningrad these are not something that a people would forget quickly and undoubtly the scars were fresh in minds and hearts and still plain to see. It seems likely to me that a lot of the inspiration for his books about totalitarian regimes came from his visit to Russia.

At the very end of the book, when alex is reflecting on his past exploits, he talks about being too ignorant in his youth to make any real choices. At some point he asks himself something like, would God prefer a man who chose violence over a man who had goodness imposed upon him. He is obviously struggling to excuse his violence and the statement seems to contradict the idea that he had no choice but to do violence. Although he may have had some superficial freedom compared to the period after his conditioning he feels in some ways he 'knew no better'.

However, in the final chapter, he makes what is probably the only positive choice he makes in the whole book-to get married have children etc. Alex seems to view this as the first real choice he has ever made, and perhaps suggests that he has finally found some personal freedom and respite from the harsh society in which he lives and from his violent past.

[Edited on 11/12/2004 by nostalgiaforinfinity]

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 04:47 PM
I'm not sure if it's common knowledge, but there are two versions of the book. The american version leaves out the last chapter.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 05:59 PM
Devin: I was aware of that, actually, but it is a good thing to mention again. It should have been mentioned before now, but I had been waiting for the discussion to "catch up" to that point per the original agreement to discuss the book in sections (which I still think would be the most beneficial way to do things... provided people actually wanted to discuss anything). Wasn't the final chapter posted here on Shmeng at one time? If so, this could be a good place to re-link it.

Without the final chapter, the book doesn't really have much of a message in my opinion. It could still be argued that Alex's "choices" about settling down when he is older are the result of social conditioning, just as his youthful "choices" were not really, in the final analysis, within his control. He does not come across as a wiser character in the final chapter (to me), but he does read as a more mature one.

This still begs the question regarding free will. Older people make different "choices" than younger people, to be sure. Often, the decisions of older people are seen as being more informed due to their experiences and insights. But (and I am straying from the text itself and into its implications now), if older people make uniform choices and younger people uniform choices (within statistical parameters, of course), what proof do we have that these differences have any more to do with insight and the exercise of sense? Could it not also be possible that older people are simply conditioned to make a different set of "decisions" and it is only an illusion that they are more free of social conditioning than their younger counterparts?

NFI: Thank you for that background context. I hadn't heard it before. I don't see A Clockwork Orange as a book about Totalitarianism in the same sense as Orwell's 1984 , but the germ of it is there. As for the ridiculousness of the rumour regarding Burgess' involvement in the CIA... I agree that it is entirely unlikely that the author had anything to do with that organisation. That the CIA engaged in experiments involving "mind control" and behavioural modification, however, is a matter of public record. They were ordered to pay restitution by the US Supreme Court for their "MK ULTRA" series of experiments.

~M.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 07:16 PM
M: I like your point about free will and social conditioning. I would agree that all of our choices areaffected or controlled by our social conditioning, but this raises something of a conceptual difficulty. it is hard (if not impossible) to imagine any type of choice or free will being exercised outside of some kind of social structure and so the whole idea of freedom of choice becomes something of a moot point. Without some kind of structure in which to make choices, can will be exercised at all? The book does explore the fact that society affects ALL of our choices, but I think Burgess was also trying to say that this was not always a bad thing, that there are degrees of freedom within a society, freedom that comes partly from 'insight and common sense'.

Anyway, I would quite like to discuss the book if anyone is interested? Sorry if i jumped the gun on the sections thing Mono, am quite happy to go back to the beginning. But I probably won't have much to say until next weekend as i have exams at the mo, plus i'd quite like to reread the book as it's been a while.

Why was the final chapter missing from the American version? I knew the film ending had been cut, presumably because Mr Kubrick felt it was too nicey nicey.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 08:20 PM
NFI: No apologies about "jumping the gun on the sections thing"... as long as you are actually discussing the text itself, I could give a shit about which part of it you are discussing. One of the sorest spots I have had as a community member here was about people's apparent inability to do something like read and discuss a book even after vocalising that it is what they wanted to do.

I honestly have no idea why the final chapter was expurgated from the American version. it seems to be a marketing decision, but, if so, it is an especially crappy one and makes the book a bit pointless and voyeuristic ("Hey, look! He's violent, but if we make him un-violent, he gets victimised!"). Seems like something a Disney exec would decide to do.

The "free will" question is really unanswerable, but if one hasn't already had the internal debate, I think it is high time that they did. Obviously, we do not have unlimited "free will" ("why don't you just "decide" that you want to walk upside down on the ceiling, smart ass?"), but we should learn to recognise the extent to which we are conditioned (as far as that is recognisable).

Another factor in this equation is that Alex and his group were in ostensible violation of explicit social mores and thought they were "pushing the envelope" (as the youthful like to imagine they do), so how is this behaving in accordance with social conditioning? I propose that the irony (real irony, not Alanis Marmoset irony) is that violence was tacitly incorporated into the social mores of which Alex & co were allegedly in violation. This is illustrated by the authority figures such as the police being as brutal and objective to their victims as the street punks were to theirs. From this standpoint, Alex & co were more upright conformists to their world than the writer in Chapter 2, who was a provocateur and a destabilising factor.

~M.

 

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  posted on 11/12/2004 at 08:32 PM
I agree with the idea that alex and his group acted as a kind of mirror for the brutality of the society in which they lived, that they were reflecting/reinacting the violence of the police etc who brutalised them and so brutalised those lower in the pecking order. Also, off the top of my head, you could argue that youth is a society apart. That it has it's own hierarchy, do's and don'ts and it's own forms of social conditioning. I'll away sleep on it.

 

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