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Author: Subject: Church of Scientology

Fanatic





Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 26/2/2008 at 05:04 PM
Has anyone else been reading up on this after the recent demonstrations? Did you even notice there were demonstrations?

If not, go read through the links here: http://psychopixi.livejournal.com/321106.html.

What do you think?

I think that the 'Church of Scientology' group should not be allowed to call itself a religious organisation, based on the fact that it charges obscene amounts of money for access to its religious writings.

I think that religious information should be free, although the CoS should not be shut down or prevented for charging for its services. The fact that it does charge, however, mean it is more like the bookstore that sells a bible, than a church where you can read one for free.

Once the CoS is recognised as a business, its practises can then be investigated without people worrying about being accused of 'religious discrimination'. This is why it is important that the CoS as an organisation should be noted to be different from the religion of Scientology. Once it can be investigated, action can be taken if the stories about it are proven to be true.

Your views?

(Edited for typos)

[Edited on 2/27/2008 by Psychopixi]

 

____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.

 

Occasional Poster




Posts: 14
Registered: 18/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/2/2008 at 12:54 AM
it takes less of an investment than christianity. the require (at least from the devout) 10% of your income. couple grand a year, minimum. hell, seems like a bargain to me.

who are we to say that their religion needs investigating? as long as they avoid nikes and kool-aid, we should just let em be. I, however, shall don my tin-foil fedora to negate their awesome mental powers.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/2/2008 at 05:34 AM
Okay Bob, let's have a look at your reply.

quote:
it takes less of an investment than christianity. the require (at least from the devout) 10% of your income. couple grand a year, minimum.


Um, no. Proof please.

Find me a website, or reference a new article, whatever, that details how Christianity requires that much of an investment from its followers. Maybe you didn't mean Christianity in general, maybe you were thinking of a smaller subset?

Or maybe you were thinking of the 'donations' people are talked into giving, out of fear or guilt. I have issues with that too, but I don't think it's directly comparable with the CoS. If you're a member of the CoS you have to pay for access to the religious information; you can only be given more information once you have paid for it. At least Christianity's teachings are free.

Now check out the links I posted, and read the information on the prices the CoS charges for its courses. A commonly quoted figure is $360,000 to attain the level of OTIII.

quote:
who are we to say that their religion needs investigating?


I never said that. In fact I tried to make it obvious that that was not what I meant; re-read my initial post if you don't get this.

Their religion is fine. People can believe whatever they want. The organisation called the 'Church' of Scientology is what is troubling me. Again, just try taking the time to read through the links I posted, and check out some of the personal accounts.

The fact that the CoS charges for courses means it is more like a business than a religious organisation, and so it should be treated as such. Once it can be investigated like any other business, the stories of brainwashing, abuse and neglect of the people involved in the organisation can be investigated properly, and action can be taken to help the people who need it, and prosecute those who caused the suffering.

While their religious views are certainly rather wacky, what I want to know is whether other people are as disturbed by the CoS as I am.

Do you think that they should be allowed to remain a religious organisation? Justify your answer. What makes them different to the bookshop that sells a Bible?

Do you think the stories circulating about what life is like for members of the CoS are true? If you do, don't you think that something should be done? If you don't, can you explain why not?

 

____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.

 

Occasional Poster




Posts: 14
Registered: 18/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/2/2008 at 07:39 AM
bible demands 10% as a tithe.
The average income of a catholic family (according to the vatican polls) is roughly 75k per year.
10% of 75 k is 7500. Assuming you retire at 65, that's 47 years of tithing. (from 18-65). That works out to 352,500. Take into account mileage, time off for religious holidays, etc. it is roughly the same.

My apologies. By religion, I mean organization. that is my frame of reference. I believe that religion and belief are two totally different things. Every time you hear of a problem with a religion, it is with the institution, not the believers.

The only stories I have seen about the behavior fo scientologists were in tabloids. Never seen a reputable news agency report on them. I am not saying there have been none, but I haven't seen any. These stories may be true, or they may be like the stories about drug needles and gas pumps and gang members under cars - urban fantasy.

I know of two people that come from terribly religious backgrounds. This girl I know of was in a religious cult in new england. Some very nasty shit went down. when she had the chance, she walked out. Another was involved in a group of, for lack of a better word, devil entheusiasts (not satanists, at least not satanic church satanists). He up and walked away. If the scientologists were so bad and oppressive, then their people could, oh I don't know, walk away.


I don't believe anything should be done about something that people subject THEMSELVES to. If I were to get into a fight for the way people are treated, it would be the plight of the poor, genital mutilation or the persecution of voudoun practitioners. But when people have a faith that they join, and the religious institution treats them a certain way, and they continue to do it, that is their own business and choice. you cannot save the clueless, and I believe it is a mistake to try.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 27/2/2008 at 10:47 AM
That is a lot of money to give, and I think it would be worse for poorer people who are less able to spare the money, even if it is a smaller amount. From what I've read though, the practise of tithing seems to be a little bit controversial, with people claiming that as it is an Old Testament idea, it does not necessarily have a place in modern Christianity. That's a step in the right direction, IMHO.

quote:
The only stories I have seen about the behavior of scientologists were in tabloids. Never seen a reputable news agency report on them. I am not saying there have been none, but I haven't seen any.


I strongly suggest you google for 'operation freak out', 'operation snow white', 'fair game policy' or 'paulette cooper'. Alternatively you can check out the list of links in my journal, linked in the first post.

quote:
I don't believe anything should be done about something that people subject THEMSELVES to.


Agreed, provided they have given informed consent. This is why I have an issue with the organisation. If, after it has been declared a business, people still want to pay ridiculous sums of money to be brainwashed, then they can. But they should be informed - by external agencies if the CoS refuse to do so - before hand, before paying any money, exactly what will be happening to them in the courses they pay for.

 

____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.

 

Occasional Poster




Posts: 14
Registered: 18/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/2/2008 at 09:30 PM
Why does it need to be a business? as they progress through the echelons of the organization, they get a feel for waht they are getting into adn are free to walk away

anyone who subjects themselves to a religion does it to themselves. if they are not bright enough to see what is happening, then they deserve what they get

it was said that religion is the opiate of the masses, and frankly if it makes them feel good, then they should do it as it costs less than amusement parks

 

Member




Posts: 100
Registered: 13/2/2007
Status: Offline

  posted on 28/2/2008 at 09:32 PM
Why does it need to be a business? I think I agree with Bob.

 

____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up and learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]

 

Fanatic




Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/2/2008 at 04:09 AM
quote:
Why does it need to be a business?


Because it operates like one. The CoS claims to have the knowledge which will save mankind, and yet they restrict access to this knowledge to people who have paid alarming amounts of money. To me, this indicates that their primary objective is to make money.

quote:
as they progress through the echelons of the organization, they get a feel for waht they are getting into adn are free to walk away


Apart from the fact that they're not really free.

For example; if you take course A, then course B, then course C, then somehow have problems with course D, you can be deemed to have not understood any of the previous teachings, and you must take courses A, B and C again (and pay for them again).

Another example; People who question scientology, or disagree with its teachings are declared as 'suppressive persons' (check the links for more information). Suppressive people are 'fair game'. If someone has been declared as 'fair game' scientologists believe that that person can be 'destroyed'. (Check the links.) If you leave the CoS you know you will be declared as 'fair game' - good incentive to NOT leave - who'd want to be treated like Paulette Cooper (Links!)?.

Another example: If you are a member of the CoS, and anyone tries to question you in its teachings, or point out any flaws, you must 'disconnect' from the 'suppressive person'. This doesn't matter if they're your friend, lover, mother. You are to have no more to do with them. If you have friends and family in the CoS, and you leave, you will be deemed a 'suppressive person', and they must 'disconnect' from you - you will not see those people again - good incentive not to leave.

Another example: More psychological than anything - if you've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on something, you are going to be desperate to be proven right. You are not going to want to admit, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, that you might be wrong. Once you get suckered in, they keep you suckered.

Another example: Part of the brainwashing... sorry, training you go through encourages blind obedience, and an ability to switch off from any kind of debate. You are taught that you do not need to think for yourself; the CoS will give you all the answers you need.

To go back to your question, why does it need to be a business. It can be called a business because that it how it operates. It should be called a business because then people will be able to make an informed choice about whether they want to join or not, and it will be easier for them to leave if they become disillusioned with it.

 

____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.

 

Member




Posts: 199
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/2/2008 at 08:46 PM
Well, not to mention the threat and murder of those who leave the organisation. I have known several individuals who would be called wealthy that were bankrupted trying to become "clear", which is a low level of OT, to the tune of $200k a year or more in 1980s US dollars. If you read up, Hubbard had a chat with Heinlein, wherein LRH said that if you wanted to become really rich, you should start a religion and not write books. A few years later when Heinlein was not there to call his bluff, sciencefictionology was born. DC-8's in space! Volcanoes exploded with hydrogen bombs to kill billions of dead souls! Thrills! Chills! Profits! Banned by Germany, the people who brought us the Reich series!! They really should be outlawed as a Ponzi scheme, or treated as a cult like the Branch Davidians and just burned down, starting with Tom Cruise Control. Free Katie!

I won't mention the 1934 book, Scientologie, that may have been the source of all of this off the record.

 

____________________
Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 29/2/2008 at 11:43 PM
quote:
I won't mention the 1934 book, Scientologie, that may have been the source of all of this off the record.


If you're going to not-mention something, you should really provide a link.

http://www.iheartchaos.com/2008/02/27/did-lron-hubbard-plag arize-scientology-the-more-you-know/

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Fanatic




Posts: 376
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 1/3/2008 at 02:38 AM
quote:
Thrills! Chills! Profits! Banned by Germany, the people who brought us the Reich series!!


*lmao*

quote:
They really should be outlawed as a Ponzi scheme


*Googles 'Ponzi'*

Yes! Yes, definitely! It's people like Tom Cruise and John Travolta (as well as the core members) that reap the rewards of the money of the rest, not to mention the near-slave-labour of the members who work in places like the celebrity retreat.

P.S. That thing you didn't mention; I saw that on Enturbulation a few days ago. Produced a *headdesk* moment.

 

____________________
Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life.

 

Occasional Poster




Posts: 14
Registered: 18/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 1/3/2008 at 08:14 AM
it is as much a business as teh catholic church or the first satanic church of anton levay. I agree that all religious entities, at least financially, should be subject to the same laws as businesses, i do not think ONE religious entity should be singled out.

if leaving an organization means you can be destroyed, that means there is consequences for your actions, not that you are not free to make them.

desertion from any post bears the same kind of weight. army, cult, religious organization, biker gang. just because you work yourself into a corner where you have LIMITED options does not mean you are not free to make the choices.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 598
Registered: 24/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 1/3/2008 at 11:31 AM
You know, the last time I checked with a recovering Catholic, the Catholic church didn't forge bomb threats or attempt to muddle his finances or any number of other things. I do believe his mother muttered a few things at him under her breath in Spanish, whocked him upside the head, and then sent him home with a plate of tamales.
Consequences are one thing, but blatantly illegal actions are another, and it calls into question the character of the entire organization.

 

____________________
Okay, dazzle me.

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 2/3/2008 at 07:04 AM
Well, there was a day when the Catholic Church enforced their membership a lot more firmly than they do now, destroying both infidels (Crusades) and heretics (no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!). Not to mention the fact that its leaders tended to be filthy rich, living off of money the brainwashed followers paid in order to buy salvation for their souls. And they were even worse about sharing their information - keeping everything in Latin so the common man could not read things from the source, but only receive it through the filter of a church official.

It is almost certainly true that L. Ron Hubbard had ulterior motives when he created Scientology. And it is true that the organization has great power today. But when you probe into the beginnings of many religions, you will often find fanaticism, insanity, mind control, or other unsavories, thinly veiled by a pretty story of salvation for the elite who follow this path, and destruction for those who don't take the bait.

Scientology is almost certainly a very nasty operation, and the amount of money it charges its followers and their treatment and particularly the treatment of those who fail to conform or dare to publicly expose them is very alarming. But no worse than other organizations that call themselves religions. Compared to the Catholic church, (centuries ago, granted) they're still pretty tame.

Scientology actually seems a lot like my childhood church, at least in the older days. It's a couple of generations after the death of the founder, and things have withered considerably since then. But there was the element of deprivation and mistreatment of members in the name of "purification", often resulting in suspicious deaths, deep brainwashing, and people giving up all they own, like my great-grandfather who sold his rich farm in the midwest and donated it all to the church to buy them a farm, which I was actually born on.

From my personal experience, and the history of my church and family that I have been taught since a very young age, and the studies I have conducted recently, I am of the opinion that, unfortunately, just because a religion was started for unsavory reasons (the founder of mine was a megalomaniac, and either mentally ill (possibly schizophrenic) or deliberately made up things to ensnare his followers) or because brainwashing techniques are employed or too much money is being required as a donation (in the early days of my church, if you really wanted to be a part of it, you gave all you had) that does not mean it is not a religion. It means it is a sick, abusive, cultish religion.

I think that a close watch should be made on such places for evidence of cruelty, abuse, and suspicious death of the members (or detractors) or other illegal activities, and such should be fully prosecuted. As for the members "caught" in the church, unfortunately some people choose to enter such organizations willy-nilly without finding out what lies under the surface, and that is their decision, and they unfortunately bear the consequences of their own choices. Just like someone who engages in any other risky activity. What saddens me is the children raised in such an environment - it is harder for them. But even though it is hard to break free from places like this, it is possible. Even after being brainwashed. It requires turning your mind back on, rather than relinquishing control like a sheep being led to the slaughter. It takes effort, and strength of will, and courage.

I had to do that, to a lesser degree, since the church I am from has lost so much power since its golden days. The Bible School I attended from age 18 to age 20 tried very hard, though, and I actually tried to kill myself from the pressure while I was there. I might never have left, except a staff couple who worked at the school, the only people there who showed any real care for me, ended up breaking free about the same time, and I rode some on their courage.

I'm going to include some links about my church, just for comparison - in one, they comment on how much stronger this church would have been if it had been founded in the information era, with television and other ways to spread the word. I don't know - it was scary enough just done by word of mouth.

http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/WhatSp irtPart6.html

this is a very in depth and techinical piece - kind of difficult reading.

http://www.fwselijah.com/

this is a site founded by escaping members of the church - a lot of personal accounts, and a lot of people I personally know wrote stuff on it.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,772039,00. html

this is about my Great-Uncle Harry - still "faithful"

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C0CE5DF1E31 E233A2575AC2A9669D946096D6CF

article about the arrest of the church founder for man slaughter.

http://www.ntskeptics.org/1991/1991mayjune/mayjune1991.htm< /a>

newsletter that interestingly enough has an article about both Scientology, and my church

http://www.kingdomchristianministries.org/churches/FAQ.htm< /a>

my ex-church's "official" position today - they are not quite so dismissing of F.W. Sandford in the Bible School, though. At least not once you've passed the first year.

[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Schizo]

[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Schizo]

[Edited on 3/2/2008 by Schizo]

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Occasional Poster




Posts: 14
Registered: 18/8/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/3/2008 at 10:40 AM
Bombing planned parenthoods. Inquisition. crusades. oh, right - we're talking about individuals, not mas genocide. my bad.

and I say it again. Jjust because you work yourself into a corner where you have LIMITED options does not mean you are not free to make the choices.

how is this bullshit any worse than police treatment of minorities in the inner city? or starvation of children because the top 5 have 95%, etc?

my point is that they join a religion, and are afraid to leave. when my best friend was involved in a satanic cult, he got out. he was cut, his house burned. but he got out. so, since they join, they CAN get out.

 
 


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