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Author: Subject: And Justice for All?

Fanatic





Posts: 248
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/12/2007 at 02:21 PM
I have long since lost all faith in the judicial system. At a Young age I was in and out of the courts due to an abusive step father and I thought I would have learned by now that Justice is rarely served. Really the bit about me being in and out of the courts holds little relevance to my rant but I should have been more prepared none the less. Its not easy losing anybody that you are close to, especially when they are taken from you unexpectedly. Matthew Paris was 25 on his way home from his pizza delivery job at around 2am-ish when he was killed instantly not even 40 ft. from his front door by a drunk driver on March 11th of this year. Since the night he was taken, that drunk driver has been walking the streets a free man. This will be this guy's 2nd DUI charge. For the past 8 months court dates have been pushed back and appeals have been made and a conflict of interests brought up and here were are so very close to D-Day. The day that this SOB finally gets his trial. At first he was going to plead not guilty to some of the charges....mainly the aggravated manslaughter. But now that a plead bargain has been thrown out on the table this guy decides Ok I'll plead guilty now. And you know how much time he will be getting? 18 months. And you know what's better...He will be out on work release during those 18 months. Just another nail in the coffin I do suppose. I think its extremely unjust...But what is justice anymore?

 

____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music

 
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Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/12/2007 at 09:08 PM
I believe in Nonjustice. The NonJustice Foundation's website appears to have been taken down, which is a real shame. I'd love to decribe it at length, but I'm running late right now. Anyway, here's this: <A HREF="http://www.attorneykimmel.com/nonjustice.html">Nonjustice</A> ;

I'm sorry for your loss and hope that you are able to resolve your pain.

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Fanatic




Posts: 580
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/12/2007 at 09:09 PM
Huh. Somebody seems to have disabled HTML here. Just cut and paste then.

http://www.attorneykimmel.com/nonjustice.html

 

____________________
"I believe that woman is planning to shoot me again."

 

Fanatic




Posts: 248
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/12/2007 at 09:59 AM
Nonjustice brings up good points. It being human nature to want justice its hard to just take "The Middle Road". I do however understand that no matter what, I am never going to think that this guy will ever get what I think he deserves and therefore I should be content that he is getting anything at all. I also hope that what he did that night will forever be burned into his memory.

At any rate, there is a civil suit 2 days after the court trail. Between now and then he can still choose to plea innocent but, its not likely. He's getting too sweet of a deal. The civil suit is just another battle. Though I'm sure we will win the true battle is between Matthew's parents and how the money is divided.....thats a whole nother song and dance.

Nonjustice, I think is right though, we're only dragging out our own pain and suffering trying to get some kind of retribution in a system that is flawed with too many loop holes.

Whats the way to end this pain and suffering? Its simple! Just stop persuing Justice!

 

____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/12/2007 at 03:25 PM
"All hurtful acts are motivated by the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice is the primary cause of human-inflicted suffering in our world."


While the author makes a number of very good points, I have to take issue with this quote... I think that is a blatant blanket statement that vastly over-simplifies the issue. It is true that there is a huge amount of harm done in the name of "justice". Mostly due to a misguided sense of justice, such as feuding families, nations, and religions. Often someone wants to avenge a percieved wrong that was never intended as such, and thus starts an endless cycle of people seeking "justice". But there are are a kajillion, at least, other reasons for a human to harm another. Some people just get a kick out of it, from the bratty kid who likes to pick on their younger sibling just to hear them squeal, to the psychopath who kills for pleasure, to the tyrant who starts wars from a sheer lust for power.

Also, there is a difference (often confused) between justice and revenge, that I think the author (and many people who have been wronged) misses. Revenge is the desire to hurt the offender at least as deeply as he has hurt the offended. Justice is the desire to see things made right, either by preventing the offender from repeating his offense, or finding a way for the offender to repair his offense.

Revenge is almost always negative - almost no one is ever benefitted by revenge. Justice is very important, though, because otherwise people who are dumb enough to drive drunk would never have it drilled into their skulls that such actions cause hurt. Since drunk driving is such a selfish action, many who do this don't really grasp the concept of the pain this causes others, so they must be taught the pain/avoidance trigger some other way. This is justice, not revenge.

As for our "justice system"... I agree, there is very rarely true justice to be found there. It is unfortunate, but mostly unavoidable, since the judicial system is based on laws, and laws are broad and sweeping and designed for generalities, and never fit a specific case perfectly. Not to mention the aspect of corruption or just plain apathy in the system.

It is unfortunate the true justice is almost never achieved. The fact is, when it is achieved, it is almost always done in a spirit of love and care for the offender - to teach rather than to punish. Even then, it depends mostly on the offender's willingness to learn. Generally, it's necessary to accept the fact that this is a cruel and unfair world, full of cruel and unfair people who get away with it. And here is where the author is wise... why punish yourself for someone else's misdeeds? Where is the justice in that? Sometimes, you just have to accept that things will never be made right. It hurts. It's infuriating. But it's true. Take a deep breath, mourn your friend, do what you can to protect others from the same fate, and then move on...

*hugs* I'm sorry, SP... I wish there could be a happy ending for you and the others who are hurting with you.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/12/2007 at 04:09 PM
I must add, though... there is certainly a huge amount of personal energy involved in a situation such as yours, and it is unrealistic to expect to be able to just let it all go with no resolution at all. You want to use it for your friend in some way - right now you want justice, but may not be able to achieve it.

Seems like there will almost certainly be a large amount of unresolved energy left in this situation, not to mention the fact that you feel that your friend's death should be honored and acknowledged as the very real tragedy that it is.

The trick is to take that excess energy, and find a place to put it. Maybe this drunk driver will not ever be held to a true concept of justice. But there are other people out there - people at risk of the same fate as your friend... the residual energy from this situation can be used to try to protect them, perhaps... be poured into education for children about the effects of driving drunk, so that perhaps some of them might be persuaded not to do so... or maybe used to share with others who have gone through similar loss, to help them heal and know they are not alone, or something else... At any rate, the energies and impulses you feel are very real, very powerful, and need to not be buried or denied as much as they need to not get caught in fruitless desires for revenge.

I haven't gone through this particular situation, but I have experienced what I felt to be deep injustice in my life, and that's what I found I had to do - divert my energies from retaliation, and find them a new home.

*more hugs for SP*

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest of
girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Member




Posts: 199
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/12/2007 at 06:08 PM
Luckily, justice does not rest exclusively nor primarily in the justice system. When you affix "system" to something, you have to assume it is less effective at whatever principle is before it than a self-regulating chaotic arrangement would be. In this example, a responsible village or tribe would have already dealt with the guilty without need for courts. If the subjective principle of justice is served, this will happen in an unpleasant and possibly poetic way. I try to make sure this happens as much as possible in my own life, sometimes to my great detriment.

 

____________________
Plenty of time, my sweet. Plenty of time.

 

Fanatic




Posts: 511
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/12/2007 at 09:53 PM
"All hurtful acts are motivated by the pursuit of justice. Hence, justice is the primary cause of human-inflicted suffering in our world."


I actually take no issue with this quote. I find it to be profoundly accurate. While the excuse to harm others differs, it always boils down to the fact that an injustice is seen, and an attempt to rectify it is being made.

The bratty kid picking on the younger sibling is doing so because they feel maligned in some way, and are trying to even the score.

The psychopath killing for pleasure usually has a reason that makes perfectly good sense to himself, and is usually seeking their own twisted form of justice.

And the tyrant, lusting for power is also warring for the sake of his own perspective of what "justice" means.


Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

Just: acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good

Justification :the act or an instance of justifying : vindication b: something that justifies

Justify: to show a sufficient lawful reason for an act done

The thing is.. are we talking about justice... or justification?

Any act of harm always has to be justified in the mind of the person commiting the act. Nobody ever wants to be the bad guy. Without the concept of justification (which is an evil concept), it would be much more difficult to bring yourself to do hurtful things. "But he started it!" "I had a good reason." or, perhaps most insidious, "I just made a mistake." To be able to mete out actual justice, one must be impartial, by definition. I cannot imagine that someone who is truly impartial could ever bring about harm, unless it is in the sense of "kill 'em all". Including himself. In which case, that person would truly be a complete psycho. Even psychos have a small sense of self-preservation, and thus, are not impartial.

So, nobody is ever perfectly impartial in the first place. Without impartiality, "justice" by its definition, can never be served.

Let's look at the definition of "Just". acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good.

Who decides what is morally upright or good? What is morally right to one person is the deepest sin to another. What gives one the right to "mete out rewards or punishments" ?

Locking up a drunk driver is not justice. Nor is it revenge. It is containment, pure and simple. He committed a harmful act, and is a potential danger to other people. Thus, containment is necessary. But don't ever confuse it with "Justice". When you seek Justice, you are seeking revenge, pure and simple. You are seeking revenge for the outrage that offends your moral sensibilities.

In the case of the drunk driver, the most important thing to happen is for him to understand that he has taken a life. If he has a shred of humanity, he will feel the guilt for that for the rest of his life, and will punish himself far more than any court of law ever could. Perhaps it will give him the motivation to never drink again. If he justifies it to himself, telling himself that he simply made a mistake, perhaps not. In either case, he has committed a terrible act that he will have to live with for the rest of his life, whether he acknowledges it consciously or not.

The guy can never make up for having taken a life. Whatever his punishment is, it's something he will never be able to get away from.

That is Justice.

 

____________________

 

Fanatic




Posts: 344
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 5/12/2007 at 11:11 PM
All I can type for now is: I'm sorry the justice system let you down SP, and so many others. What was meant to be a fair system can often be corrupted. This guy must have been a good ol' boy to get such a light sentence. If I had seen this sooner I would have suggested contacting M.A.D.D. they usually put more pressure on courts for this kind of case. It's a shame how this system has become so terrible, laughable, twisted, and despised.

Big, big hugs SP

 

____________________
co-worker: "Your gay!?"
myself: "Didn't you see my rainbow pin?"
co-worker: "I just thought you liked skettles."
-(yes, it actually happened to me)

 

Extreme Fanatic




Posts: 897
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/12/2007 at 04:07 AM
No, I still disagree with the statement. I think partially, it boils down to the difference between justice and justification, as you have noted. It is possible for someone executing an act of hurt to justify their action, but that is not their true reason for it, if only they would be truthful with themselves. Also, I do think there are people out there who get simple pleasure from inflicting pain... to the degree that it almost makes a full circle to a form of innocence. Yes, often tyrants use "justice" as an excuse to invade another country or oppress their own... often, though, it is simple entitlement - if something is out there and they want it, then they feel like they can take it. It's not justice as far as the notion of settling a score. Although it is justification. Also there is the element of simply being power-mad - a wish to instill fear in others... Another reason for pain in the world is ignorance or thoughtlessness... actually the drunk driver is a good example of that. He did not get behind the wheel while intoxicated thinking about justice - in fact he probably did not think at all. Or if he did, it was likely an "I'll be fine" or an "I don't care." I almost think more harm is done by the "I don't care" frame of mind than the "I'm going to even the score" frame of mind.

Often, the element of justification comes after the act... I'm sure this drunk driver has spent considerable time trying to justify himself. Few people can face their offenses head-on.

Locking someone up has an element of containment, of course, but often, because it is an unpleasant experience, it is used as a sort of teaching tool... the burn that comes from touching the hot stove... Only when someone is incarcerated for life does the containment element come fully into play, because only then is the offender never able to repeat his offense. Ideally, a less-than-life sentence should teach the offender never to do it again.

I could say more, but I need to go get ready for work.

 

____________________
"You can tell by the scars on my arms and the cracks in my hips and the />
dents in my car and the blisters on my lips that I'm not the carefullest
of

girls." - Dresden Dolls, "Girl Anachronism"

 

Fanatic




Posts: 248
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/12/2007 at 10:51 AM
Really inside the judicial system justice is all Judge/Jury discretion. Go into the courts on a day that a judge is having a bad day versus a good one and you will see the difference in the punishment handed out. I think its human nature to seek justice or to seek revenge and its not something so easy to write off.

Justice is rarely achieved through any kind of system. This drunk driver really should have the book thrown at him. This is his Second DUI offence. Obviously containment and a large fine were not enough to deter this young man from offending again. Also this guys first plea was going to be of innocent...He claimed that he was not to fault for the accident. The attorney general thought it would be better to get him on something rather than nothing at all so that's how the plea bargain got thrown out on the table.
This guy between now and the 19th can still enter a plea of innocent but I doubt it, the plea deal is too good.
I'll come to terms with the fact that the justice I feel should be served won't be. I understand life is unfair and full of disappointment. I also know that harboring anger and resentment towards this guy doesn't do anything for me or Matthew. I don't want to remember him and instantly feel anger for the guy who took his life.

Drunk Driving is also one of those offenses that is easily gotten around. Yes you knowingly got into a vehicle too impaired to operate it, you broke countless traffic laws and then wrecked and killed someone. But how responsible for the other persons death are you? Its not like you pre-meditated it and you didn't mean for it to happen. Regardless you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing and should suffer the consequences of those actions. Its really not a hard concept just too many other factors involved.

Unfortunately its the way of things. Someone tomorrow could go before a judge with the exact same crime scenario and walk out with a completely different sentence. I've sat in a court room before and have seen a drug dealer get more time than a man who raped a 10 year old girl. Its sad to see stuff like that. It is what it is.

 

____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music

 

Fanatic




Posts: 248
Registered: 31/12/1969
Status: Offline

  posted on 22/12/2007 at 09:51 AM
Weds. Morning we had court.
I can't believe that they actually gave this guy a restricted drivers licence

 

____________________
My Life is like a porno-Without the sex-Just the weird music

 

Member




Posts: 100
Registered: 13/2/2007
Status: Offline

  posted on 1/2/2008 at 12:44 PM
Yeah. court does suck.
My judge gave me 18 months of probation for drinking.

I KNOW i am underage, but still.

thats a LOT

 

____________________
[[Ive learned too many things to let life pass me by now. Ive grown up and learned my lessons, this is the beginning of the future]]

 
 


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